Philando Castile Shooting

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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Millions of people in this country regularly smoke pot. Doing it in front of her daughter isn’t the best move, mainly because it’s still taboo, less than that it may be harmful. So no, slandering her character does in no way affect her credibility as a witness in the murder of her fiance\ boyfriend.
The fact she documented it gives us as close a look as we could get into the actual situation.

Has a cop ever drawn on you? It happened to me, because I was speeding. Yep. I got pulled over for speeding, the cop kicked his door open, drew his weapon over the window of his car using the door as a shield and shouted at me, “Get out of the car! Get out of the car with your hands up!” he handcuffed me and then I got a ticket. I have no idea why he freaked out. I assume he thought I was somebody else as once he talked to me for a few minutes he got much calmer and figured out I wasn’t who he thought I was. By the end of it, we were friendly and joking around, but there is no doubt he pulled out his gun on me, for speeding.

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I would think, the magnitude of the situation had probably yet to sink in. Psychologically speaking, her reactions were not out of step for someone who had just experienced an extreme stressor. It’s hard to imagine how someone should react, vs. how someone actually reacts to a situation once it happens. Her actions demonstrate she understood what had happened but had yet to digest reality of what happened.
Humans under stress act weird.
Take for instance SEAL team 6, on route to the biggest mission of their lives, had the situation in helicopter on the way as very sedate and that soldiers were drowsy and falling asleep. This is account based on the description in the book “No Easy Day”.
You would think these soldiers would be jacked up, nervous, super alert, but it was the exact opposite.
Hollywood has been fucking this up for years. They base their characterizations on the incorrect predispositions on how people think they should react, vs. the reality of how people actually act in the presence of extreme stress. Often times, the ‘freak out’ comes later. People tend to be calm at first and I believe it has to do with processing.

Our lives are traditionally mundane punctuated by moments of great stress be that positive like say winning the lottery, or negative, like suddenly losing a loved one. Being that these major stressors are rare and hence there is a lot of information to process all at once. We do not process information faster, just because there is a lot of it. It just takes us longer to process a lot of information.

If you want to see a microcosm of people reacting to stressors, go to a casino. There is little difference in the reaction of people who won a great sum or lost a great sum. The greater expression occurs after they’ve stepped away from the table. Then they either celebrate or sulk, but they don’t freak when it happens. They freak out after.

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83

How do you know that the officer actually told him to not move?

84

The same situation happened to me on a business trip in the US a while back. I was supposed to catch an early flight from LAX and overslept for two hours.

As not catching that flight meant important meetings missed and me probably getting fired, I decided to try to get to the airport in time, driving really, really fast. A very idiotic decision.

It was 4 am, the roads were deserted, and I was going 80 in a residential area when the cop pulled me over and approached the car with a drawn weapon.

Now I’m European so this whole pulling-a-gun-on-a-person-speeding was completely foreign to me.

I freaked out when I saw that the cop was freaking out himself, shouting at me with increased frequency “keep your hands where I can see them”.

His stressed out voice implied I was supposed to DO something, and I was fighting a natural reaction to raise my hands up or do something else to defuse the situation, like getting my licence out. I wasn’t thinking clearly and for some reason kept shouting back “I’m not on drugs”, which didn’t help.

I can see how a person would make a hasty, stupid move perceived as threating and get shot, despite believing before that incident that only criminals and idiots get shot by the police in the US.

I was a white guy in a suit and tie in a rental Honda - if these mitigating factors weren’t present, coupled with my ignorance of the appropriate behavior the situation could have easily been far, far worse.

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85

I told my mom that her dad died.

We all thought that he was in hospice care at the time, and my mom asked me to go visit him when I went to Korea for my paternal cousin’s wedding. So, upon arriving in Korea I called my maternal uncle to say my hellos and ask how my maternal grandfather was doing. My uncle told me that my grandfather actually died a year ago, and that the family couldn’t summon the courage to tell my mom because she had ovarian cancer at the time.

My mom’s family basically hid the fact that her dad died for a year on the excuse that she was suffering from ovarian cancer, and they didn’t even tell her once she got confirmation that the cancer went into remission. And they expected me go to back home and break the news to her.

So I did.

Know how my mom reacted? The first thing she did after we got home (She picked me up from the airport) was ask how her dad was doing.

I told her that he actually died a year ago. She sat for a second, made some short giggle/laugh kind of sound, asked me to repeat what I said, started tearing up and then went into her bedroom. She came out about 10 minutes later with tears streaming down her face and asked me how he died.

…

I was at college when my dad told me that mom got the diagnosis for the ovarian cancer and that she had to go into surgery asap.

Honestly, all I recall feeling is absolutely nothing when my dad told me this.

In hindsight, I think it’s really scary to feel absolutely nothing. It was sort of like my mind went blank for a bit.

Point being- my personal experience is that people react to extreme events with pure shock and sheer incomprehension. It takes time to fully digest what just happened/was said.

The hysteria and breakdown may come later, but I firmly believe that the premise that people would react immediately with a breakdown is asinine and more Hollywood magic than reality.

Everyone has experienced different things in their lives and react to situations in their own manners. I tend to just clam up and just demand more information when I hear horribly bad news.

In fact, I believe that I would react in a similar manner to Castile’s fiancee had I been in her shoes in the immediate aftermath. I don’t know if I would break down in the manner she did once she actually realized that Castile died, but I am pretty sure I would say similar words to what the fiancee said in the immediate aftermath.

Maybe you wouldn’t. Maybe you react noisily to extreme events. I don’t know.

But such is how people react to things. Everyone has different experiences and different ways they approach life.

That’s why you find her immediate react to be a falsehood and make you question what you see, whereas I see no reason to believe that she lied when she stated that the officer asked to see Castile’s driver license

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86

Evidently, the officer stopped Castile because he looked like an armed robbery suspect from a couple of days go.

This gives more insight into why the officer shot him dead instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt.

But isn’t that all it takes?

If you give the benefit of the doubt to the wrong person, they shoot you.

If you don’t give the benefit of the doubt to the wrong person, then you shoot them.

But, really, my concern with this ultimately comes down to-

Let’s suppose that Castile WAS the armed robbery suspect.

Let’s suppose that he DID reach for a gun.

Does any of this give the officer the authority to kill him?

What I find most puzzling about our justice system is that the police are allowed to defend their life to the death on the mere feeling that they’re being threatened, but our court system holds “innocent until proven guilty” as one of its highest standards.

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Well, of course I do not know as it is not in the brief video clip (I wouldn’t expect that it would be)… But, that is procedure and I am assuming that he followed procedure as there would be no reason not to. I highly doubt that he encouraged the man to reach for whatever so that he could shoot him. But, we will find out when a detailed investigation is complete. Until that point I am giving the officer every benefit of the doubt.

Edit Also, I have seen video clips where the black suspect is attempting to grapple with Police, or reach for a gun etc. How does it get to that point? The black suspect is not obeying the lawful order of a Police Officer. Instead they would rather fight with them. Where does this come from?

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[quote=“zeb1, post:87, topic:219338, full:true”]
Well, of course I do not know as it is not in the brief video clip (I wouldn’t expect that it would be)… But, that is procedure and I am assuming that he followed procedure as there would be no reason not to. I highly doubt that he encouraged the man to reach for whatever so that he could shoot him. But, we will find out when a detailed investigation is complete. Until that point I am giving the officer every benefit of the doubt.[/quote]

I just find it odd that you chide Pat for stating things that he cannot know for a “fact”, but then do the very same thing.

Another procedure is for the cop to ask for your driver’s license and car registration.

If you assume that the cop followed procedure, then shouldn’t you expect him to demand that Castile show his license and car registration?

Who cares. Those individuals were not Castile.

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[quote=“magick, post:88, topic:219338”]
I just find it odd that you chide Pat for stating things that he cannot know for a “fact”, but then do the very same thing.[/quote]

The suspect does not go through weeks of rigorous training in how to handle a police stop. However, the Police Officer is highly trained on how to handle a vehicle stop. See the difference? One can make an assumption that the officer did certain things. Sure I might be wrong but in most every case there is no reason for the officer to do otherwise unless he is goading the suspect to reach for something simply because the officer wanted to commit murder. Do you believe that particular Police Officer went to work that day just hoping to pull over a black man so that he could murder him, or do you think like I do that he simply wants to finish out his shift and then go home to his family without being the center of a nation wide news story?

True, but the suspect added in something that most do not. He stated he had a weapon and a carry permit, according to the girlfriend. Immediately that places this in a totally different category relative to the potential danger. The officer is now thinking “is he reaching for his license or is he reaching for the gun?” Also, IF he did say such a thing neither of us know the tone that he used when saying it, or other pertinent information.

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Why does this puzzle you? In this instance, a police officer is the accused; hence the police officer is innocent until proven guilty.

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It sure does! Especially IF the officer told him to remain still and not reach for…whatever it is he was reaching for. Failure to obey the lawful order of a Police Officer is in itself a crime.

Keep in mind we still don’t know that he was not reaching for his gun do we? Would the girlfriend have filmed that part of the story? High doubtful isn’t it?

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I would suggest that most of the recent problems with blacks being killed by police has more to do with the particular black man involved not obeying the lawful order of a Police Officer. Fighting, running, continuing to reach for something when ordered to not move. In the Castile case we don’t yet know for sure the officer told him not to reach but I would certainly believe that he did. Why would he simply shoot him without warning? Again, does anyone on this site honestly think the officer wanted to be the brunt of a national media blitz against him?

These guys are like you and I, they want to put their shift in and go have a beer or go home to their families. The narrative of the black lives matter movement is absolutely hogwash. They are in essence saying that Police Officers are looking to gun down black men. This is Ludicrous!

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Blacks resist arrest at extremely high rates.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/African-Americans-cited-for-resisting-arrest-at-6229946.php

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It seems to be a controversial topic, but there are several easily-found-on-the-first-five-Google-hits-for-what-to-do-if-pulled-over-with-a-concealed-weapon which suggest you do exactly that; inform the officer as soon as possible. To be honest - until that Google search, I was under the impression it was legally required that someone pulled over while carrying a concealed weapon disclose the information as soon as possible (I now realize that’s only the case in certain states). However, in the states where it is legally required, I have seen videos of police officers berating people they’ve pulled over for not disclosing this immediately…like, say, this one:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/07/21/you-fu-with-me-cop-threatens-concealed-carry-gun-owner-during-traffic-stop/

…which might encourage anyone carrying a legal firearm (whether they’re in a state that requires prompt notification or not) to think “Golly gee, if I ever get pulled over with my weapon in the car, I should probably tell the po-lice straight away.”

Speaking of which, that reminds me of one of your earlier points…

Sure, I can see the difference, but doesn’t that mean the officer should be the one who bears some degree of responsibility for defusing this situation, rather than escalating it? The suspect (who has not gone through weeks of rigorous training in how to handle a police stop; you just said it yourself) nervously blurts out that he has a concealed weapon because he’s trying to do what, in his mind, is the right thing - let the cop know as quickly as possible that he has a weapon.

I have no idea how I would have reacted in this situation, but in my long two-speeding-ticket criminal history, I’ve been a little nervy at the mere prospect of speaking with an officer (even though both guys were as nice and professional as could be). I can only imagine how nervous I’d be if I was trying to inform the guy that I had a concealed weapon, but I can easily imagine nervously blurting out that I had a concealed weapon, and then making some movement for my license / registration / whatever.

Point is, since you’ve noted that police officers are trained “rigorously” in how to handle a police stop but common people are not, shouldn’t the police officer be the person who’s trained to defuse this situation, not escalate it?

One last point:

Unfortunately, some of the rhetoric has started to read that way, but taking a stand against that particular straw man does not invalidate BLM entirely. I do not believe that police officers are driving around with the intention of shooting a black man for some jollies. However, I do believe that black men (and truth be told, Hispanic men as well) are probably treated differently than white men, and this probably creates some of the strange incidents where a dude being told not to sell bootleg CD’s ends up lying flat on his back with two officers subduing him and then still ends up getting shot in the chest. The white guy doing the same thing probably gets told to move it along, and don’t do that again.

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95

THIS. This is allll too common reaction by all kinds of people. The percentage of people who are able to actually DO the things they’re saying should be so logical in this situation is much smaller than the percentage of people criticizing Castile for being an “idiot”. Shit happens, but that doesn’t mean you or he deserves to get shot.

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96

Ditto this. I have felt this exact same way. In fact, most of the worst events and news I’ve ever gotten has seen me react in a very similar way. It’s eerie, but it is DEFINITELY normal.

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That’s not at all the point. After disclosing such a circumstance (if he did we still don’t know) you don’t start reaching for something when the officer tells you to remain still and we still don’t know if either of those things actually happened.

Probably ought to wait for the full investigation to conclude before we continue this conversation. But I always have to assume that before the officer shot the man he told him to stop reaching or not to move. Otherwise we all must assume that the officer was actually in the market to kill someone and that is highly doubtful.

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[quote=“ActivitiesGuy, post:94, topic:219338”]
Sure, I can see the difference, but doesn’t that mean the officer should be the one who bears some degree of responsibility for defusing this situation, rather than escalating it? [/quote]

Exactly how did this police officer “escalate” the situation? I am sick of saying the following…we don’t know if the officer said to not move but I assume he did as that is in the training. If he did and the suspect continued to reach knowing that he had a gun the officer did the right thing. Ugly…but quite honestly it was the proper move to make. BUT WE DON’T YET KNOW WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED. RIGHT?

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Then you would be doing the exact wrong thing. The first thing you need to do is show the cop your hands. Place them on the side of your car door or your dash board where he or she can see them. Don’t move. Then ask if he would like you to get your license which is in your glove compartment. If he says don’t move that is easy right? Simply do not move.

This is not brain surgery. Police Officers do not know who you are. When you get up in the middle of the night to investigate a very suspicious noise you are in a high state of alert. That is exactly how every cop feels as he pulls over a complete stranger. The guy might be a fine individual, then again he might have some very bad intentions. So…comply with the wishes of the officer. I don’t care if he is rude or pushy or obnoxious and profane. Take that stuff up with his command officer when you are through with the V&T stop. At the time you are pulled over make no sudden movements, be polite and follow instructions. It’s pretty easy not to get shot.

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The onus is on you to prove your point.