Philadelphia Open Carry

Off Topic
121

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]greggio wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]greggio wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If open carry is so bad and dangerous, why do cops do it?[/quote]

There is no point to cops carrying concealed. If you see a cop you know he has a gun, concealing it won’t fool anybody.[/quote]

not nonuniform or off duty cops.[/quote]

I see what you mean. However, all of the nonuniform cops I know do not open carry, granted it is only a couple. I do know quite a few uniform guys who all carry concealed when the are off duty though, for the same reasons I mentioned in my other post.[/quote]

In Philadelphia, I’ve only seen detectives and plainsclothes LEO open carry. I’ve seen business owners “open carry” but only within and around the premises of the building. I’ve been here all my life and open carry is not the custom. That is the point…not whether it is “bad”.

It just occurred to me, that I’m arguing with a guy from TN holding a fish with the woods in the background. Now, the foregoing is not intended as an ad hominem in the hopes of undermining DD’s position, but it does perhaps illustrate he is as far removed from the customs and laws in Philadelphia as I am about that fish in his arms - which by the way, I can only assume it was a good fish, because I have no fucking idea what kind of fish it is and he thought enough of it to take a picture![/quote]

I work in a decent sized city and I grew up and went to school in a large city. Not philly, but I do have more experience than I’m getting credit for.

My line of inquiry on open carry is on honest question. I know several off duty cops that open carry. It just doesn’t seem like they would if it were inherently more dangerous. Maybe partially because it is much more common and accepted here (there are several guys that you’ll see with holsters on at work, though they don’t carry in the building)

And it’s a catfish. Not huge (big ones can get up in the 50+ pound range), but the picture was more a way of rubbing it in to my brother who didn’t catch a thing.

My wife and I like to take our dogs out hiking the farm. That as of now, is the only time I carry. And that’s mainly because of coyotes, lol. And yes, I agree that is a far removed reason from carrying in the big fancy city. Garsh.[/quote]

Look, I love TN - it wasn’t a put-down. I told you before, my best friend lives in Crossville and I’d seriously consider buying land down there and having a 2nd home. But it aint Philly. No one stated open carry is more dangerous - it’s just unusual there. Our respective cultures are different. My buddy’s son grew up from age 12 going onto his own land to shoot squirrels with a rifle. LOL I never touched a gun until I was older and I certainly didn’t own my own gun @ 12. Much different cultures my friend. And remember, the State bordering Philly (NJ) you can’t get a carry permit unless Jesus himself ordains it. I’m not sure about our other neighboring State, DE.

122

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]greggio wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]greggio wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If open carry is so bad and dangerous, why do cops do it?[/quote]

There is no point to cops carrying concealed. If you see a cop you know he has a gun, concealing it won’t fool anybody.[/quote]

not nonuniform or off duty cops.[/quote]

I see what you mean. However, all of the nonuniform cops I know do not open carry, granted it is only a couple. I do know quite a few uniform guys who all carry concealed when the are off duty though, for the same reasons I mentioned in my other post.[/quote]

In Philadelphia, I’ve only seen detectives and plainsclothes LEO open carry. I’ve seen business owners “open carry” but only within and around the premises of the building. I’ve been here all my life and open carry is not the custom. That is the point…not whether it is “bad”.

It just occurred to me, that I’m arguing with a guy from TN holding a fish with the woods in the background. Now, the foregoing is not intended as an ad hominem in the hopes of undermining DD’s position, but it does perhaps illustrate he is as far removed from the customs and laws in Philadelphia as I am about that fish in his arms - which by the way, I can only assume it was a good fish, because I have no fucking idea what kind of fish it is and he thought enough of it to take a picture![/quote]

I work in a decent sized city and I grew up and went to school in a large city. Not philly, but I do have more experience than I’m getting credit for.

My line of inquiry on open carry is on honest question. I know several off duty cops that open carry. It just doesn’t seem like they would if it were inherently more dangerous. Maybe partially because it is much more common and accepted here (there are several guys that you’ll see with holsters on at work, though they don’t carry in the building)

And it’s a catfish. Not huge (big ones can get up in the 50+ pound range), but the picture was more a way of rubbing it in to my brother who didn’t catch a thing.

My wife and I like to take our dogs out hiking the farm. That as of now, is the only time I carry. And that’s mainly because of coyotes, lol. And yes, I agree that is a far removed reason from carrying in the big fancy city. Garsh.[/quote]

Look, I love TN - it wasn’t a put-down. I told you before, my best friend lives in Crossville and I’d seriously consider buying land down there and having a 2nd home. But it aint Philly. No one stated open carry is more dangerous - it’s just unusual there. Our respective cultures are different. My buddy’s son grew up from age 12 going onto his own land to shoot squirrels with a rifle. LOL I never touched a gun until I was older and I certainly didn’t own my own gun @ 12. Much different cultures my friend. And remember, the State bordering Philly (NJ) you can’t get a carry permit unless Jesus himself ordains it. I’m not sure about our other neighboring State, DE.[/quote]

If it gets you into this kind of trouble, it seems more dangerous.

And I didn’t get my first gun till 13 thank you very much.

And no offense taken. I lived in downtown Atlanta for a number of years, I chose to get out of that kind of environment.

I prefer a town with no traffic light, to one with a 4 hour rush hour and a 12 lane interstate. And neither of those statements is exaggeration.

123

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
It’s best not to try to initiate a confrontation ever, especially when firearms are present.

I live in Pa. I have a permit to carry and have been well trained. Even if allowed, I never open carry. Yes, I have the right but I darn well know it makes many people nervous. Including cops, who have guns.

I don’t try to prove a point when guns are involved. he risk it to great. And this is from the biggest NRA, RTKABA guy you can find.

I’d like to see the guy win of course, but why take the hard road to prove a point? [/quote]

Finally a voice of reason. Guns are a right, but also a responsibility. This guy was irresponsible. Like I said, he could very well have gotten shot. [/quote]

Thanks. I love my right to own and carry guns, but why cause yourself problems? Irish wrote in this forum about a book, Meditations on Violence by Rory Miller. Avoidance is the best policy.

If you live in Tennessee maybe seeing a gun is common. I’m sure they’re a more pro gun state than Philly is as a city. We know this. I have better things to do than be confronted by a maybe poorly informed guy with a gun.

From the officer’s perspective he is in danger. One second away app. And yes some cops are dicks. So why antagonize? Why not organize some event? Get media attention. Have speakers and a schedule.

It’s a lot harder For an overzealous cop or two to cause a problem for 50-100 individuals with a permit than some lone wolf who might appear to have a chip on his shoulder.

it irks me that somehow Philly thinks it’s laws are more important than the state of Pa., but we as gun owners know how it is so why make trouble for yourself?

124

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]greggio wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]greggio wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If open carry is so bad and dangerous, why do cops do it?[/quote]

There is no point to cops carrying concealed. If you see a cop you know he has a gun, concealing it won’t fool anybody.[/quote]

not nonuniform or off duty cops.[/quote]

I see what you mean. However, all of the nonuniform cops I know do not open carry, granted it is only a couple. I do know quite a few uniform guys who all carry concealed when the are off duty though, for the same reasons I mentioned in my other post.[/quote]

In Philadelphia, I’ve only seen detectives and plainsclothes LEO open carry. I’ve seen business owners “open carry” but only within and around the premises of the building. I’ve been here all my life and open carry is not the custom. That is the point…not whether it is “bad”.

It just occurred to me, that I’m arguing with a guy from TN holding a fish with the woods in the background. Now, the foregoing is not intended as an ad hominem in the hopes of undermining DD’s position, but it does perhaps illustrate he is as far removed from the customs and laws in Philadelphia as I am about that fish in his arms - which by the way, I can only assume it was a good fish, because I have no fucking idea what kind of fish it is and he thought enough of it to take a picture![/quote]

I work in a decent sized city and I grew up and went to school in a large city. Not philly, but I do have more experience than I’m getting credit for.

My line of inquiry on open carry is on honest question. I know several off duty cops that open carry. It just doesn’t seem like they would if it were inherently more dangerous. Maybe partially because it is much more common and accepted here (there are several guys that you’ll see with holsters on at work, though they don’t carry in the building)

And it’s a catfish. Not huge (big ones can get up in the 50+ pound range), but the picture was more a way of rubbing it in to my brother who didn’t catch a thing.

My wife and I like to take our dogs out hiking the farm. That as of now, is the only time I carry. And that’s mainly because of coyotes, lol. And yes, I agree that is a far removed reason from carrying in the big fancy city. Garsh.[/quote]

Look, I love TN - it wasn’t a put-down. I told you before, my best friend lives in Crossville and I’d seriously consider buying land down there and having a 2nd home. But it aint Philly. No one stated open carry is more dangerous - it’s just unusual there. Our respective cultures are different. My buddy’s son grew up from age 12 going onto his own land to shoot squirrels with a rifle. LOL I never touched a gun until I was older and I certainly didn’t own my own gun @ 12. Much different cultures my friend. And remember, the State bordering Philly (NJ) you can’t get a carry permit unless Jesus himself ordains it. I’m not sure about our other neighboring State, DE.[/quote]

I always thought Philly was more like NJ . But we in Pa. know this. How something should be is different than how it is.

125

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]greggio wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]greggio wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If open carry is so bad and dangerous, why do cops do it?[/quote]

There is no point to cops carrying concealed. If you see a cop you know he has a gun, concealing it won’t fool anybody.[/quote]

not nonuniform or off duty cops.[/quote]

I see what you mean. However, all of the nonuniform cops I know do not open carry, granted it is only a couple. I do know quite a few uniform guys who all carry concealed when the are off duty though, for the same reasons I mentioned in my other post.[/quote]

In Philadelphia, I’ve only seen detectives and plainsclothes LEO open carry. I’ve seen business owners “open carry” but only within and around the premises of the building. I’ve been here all my life and open carry is not the custom. That is the point…not whether it is “bad”.

It just occurred to me, that I’m arguing with a guy from TN holding a fish with the woods in the background. Now, the foregoing is not intended as an ad hominem in the hopes of undermining DD’s position, but it does perhaps illustrate he is as far removed from the customs and laws in Philadelphia as I am about that fish in his arms - which by the way, I can only assume it was a good fish, because I have no fucking idea what kind of fish it is and he thought enough of it to take a picture![/quote]

I work in a decent sized city and I grew up and went to school in a large city. Not philly, but I do have more experience than I’m getting credit for.

My line of inquiry on open carry is on honest question. I know several off duty cops that open carry. It just doesn’t seem like they would if it were inherently more dangerous. Maybe partially because it is much more common and accepted here (there are several guys that you’ll see with holsters on at work, though they don’t carry in the building)

And it’s a catfish. Not huge (big ones can get up in the 50+ pound range), but the picture was more a way of rubbing it in to my brother who didn’t catch a thing.

My wife and I like to take our dogs out hiking the farm. That as of now, is the only time I carry. And that’s mainly because of coyotes, lol. And yes, I agree that is a far removed reason from carrying in the big fancy city. Garsh.[/quote]

Look, I love TN - it wasn’t a put-down. I told you before, my best friend lives in Crossville and I’d seriously consider buying land down there and having a 2nd home. But it aint Philly. No one stated open carry is more dangerous - it’s just unusual there. Our respective cultures are different. My buddy’s son grew up from age 12 going onto his own land to shoot squirrels with a rifle. LOL I never touched a gun until I was older and I certainly didn’t own my own gun @ 12. Much different cultures my friend. And remember, the State bordering Philly (NJ) you can’t get a carry permit unless Jesus himself ordains it. I’m not sure about our other neighboring State, DE.[/quote]

If it gets you into this kind of trouble, it seems more dangerous.

And I didn’t get my first gun till 13 thank you very much.

And no offense taken. I lived in downtown Atlanta for a number of years, I chose to get out of that kind of environment.

I prefer a town with no traffic light, to one with a 4 hour rush hour and a 12 lane interstate. And neither of those statements is exaggeration.[/quote]

I prefer the same; in fact, I live 30 minutes outside philly in a very small town and I live outside town to boot. I purchased the most privacy and acreage I could afford and sacrificed house size to do it. I see a housing development, and my sphincter tightens at the thought of living that close to someone…it just ain’t natural!

However, what got this guy in the cross-hairs is simply doing something outside the custom. AND HE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS DOING! HE WAS USING A LITTLE USED EXCEPTION TO THE LAW TO THUMB HIS NOSE AT AND BAIT THE POLICE!

You really need to understand the environment in the City to understand that someone other than LEO walking around open carry is VERY unusual. Yes, it’s legal apparently, but that doesn’t make it the norm. It’s so far out of the norm, that the cop’s reaction is just as validly evidence of the foregoing as it is his ignorance of the law.

This is also a City struggling with gun violence and illegal gun ownership. Moreover, it’s a City where lots of people that wouldn’t get licensed in PA are using the Florida loophole to get a CCP. When you understand how dangerous our neighborhoods are, and the culture of illegal guns here, and the “custom” of this City, you understand perfectly well that the reaction by the police is to be EXPECTED and I full believe this guy expected it and welcomed it as well.

It does not excuse their abusive behavior, but let’s be realistic. They just responded to a arm guy that was non-compliant to lawful orders. We can argue all day if those orders were “reasonable”, but guess what? They were lawful and they were in the discretion of the officer that has to evaluate his and the public’s safety in a split second.

As someone said before, they both appear to share some fault. However, and this is important, I bet given another chance, the cop might have handled it differently. Sadly, the guy carrying would not. He knew what he was doing and he was trying to get a reaction. The time to argue his case is when the cop is comfortable that he is not a threat, not when he’s standing there, still armed, still standing, arguing with the cop! It’s just inexcusable. And it’s fallacious to compare his conduct with the cop’s - they are two separate issues, one not excusing the other.

And seriously, let’s not pretend LEO is generally fully-versed in all the technicalities of the law - they are not. Even lawyers and judges frequently have to avail themselves to legal research.

126

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
It’s best not to try to initiate a confrontation ever, especially when firearms are present.

I live in Pa. I have a permit to carry and have been well trained. Even if allowed, I never open carry. Yes, I have the right but I darn well know it makes many people nervous. Including cops, who have guns.

I don’t try to prove a point when guns are involved. he risk it to great. And this is from the biggest NRA, RTKABA guy you can find.

I’d like to see the guy win of course, but why take the hard road to prove a point? [/quote]

Finally a voice of reason. Guns are a right, but also a responsibility. This guy was irresponsible. Like I said, he could very well have gotten shot. [/quote]

Thanks. I love my right to own and carry guns, but why cause yourself problems? Irish wrote in this forum about a book, Meditations on Violence by Rory Miller. Avoidance is the best policy.

If you live in Tennessee maybe seeing a gun is common. I’m sure they’re a more pro gun state than Philly is as a city. We know this. I have better things to do than be confronted by a maybe poorly informed guy with a gun.

From the officer’s perspective he is in danger. One second away app. And yes some cops are dicks. So why antagonize? Why not organize some event? Get media attention. Have speakers and a schedule.

It’s a lot harder For an overzealous cop or two to cause a problem for 50-100 individuals with a permit than some lone wolf who might appear to have a chip on his shoulder.

it irks me that somehow Philly thinks it’s laws are more important than the state of Pa., but we as gun owners know how it is so why make trouble for yourself?
[/quote]

I’m not sure Philly thinks they are above PA law. I do think Philadelphia faces issues that the rest of the State does not face. It’s a dangerous city, rife with gun crime - far more dangerous than you know if you just casually watch the news or read the paper or even visit Center City. And as I stated earlier, you have people circumventing the licensing requirements by availing themselves to the Florida loophole which is a problem more common to the City than the rest of the State.

It’s a balancing act between our rights and public safety. I don’t think the City is anti-gun as much as they are anti-gun in the wrong owner’s hands. Now, in their quest for public safety, I’m pretty sure they are viewed as anti-gun, but that’s the default position of any pro-gun organization or person where gun rights are perceived to be infringed upon. Bottom line, Philly is unique to the rest of the State and there are no easy answers.

127

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
It’s best not to try to initiate a confrontation ever, especially when firearms are present.

I live in Pa. I have a permit to carry and have been well trained. Even if allowed, I never open carry. Yes, I have the right but I darn well know it makes many people nervous. Including cops, who have guns.

I don’t try to prove a point when guns are involved. he risk it to great. And this is from the biggest NRA, RTKABA guy you can find.

I’d like to see the guy win of course, but why take the hard road to prove a point? [/quote]

Finally a voice of reason. Guns are a right, but also a responsibility. This guy was irresponsible. Like I said, he could very well have gotten shot. [/quote]

Thanks. I love my right to own and carry guns, but why cause yourself problems? Irish wrote in this forum about a book, Meditations on Violence by Rory Miller. Avoidance is the best policy.

If you live in Tennessee maybe seeing a gun is common. I’m sure they’re a more pro gun state than Philly is as a city. We know this. I have better things to do than be confronted by a maybe poorly informed guy with a gun.

From the officer’s perspective he is in danger. One second away app. And yes some cops are dicks. So why antagonize? Why not organize some event? Get media attention. Have speakers and a schedule.

It’s a lot harder For an overzealous cop or two to cause a problem for 50-100 individuals with a permit than some lone wolf who might appear to have a chip on his shoulder.

it irks me that somehow Philly thinks it’s laws are more important than the state of Pa., but we as gun owners know how it is so why make trouble for yourself?
[/quote]

I’m not sure Philly thinks they are above PA law. I do think Philadelphia faces issues that the rest of the State does not face. It’s a dangerous city, rife with gun crime - far more dangerous than you know if you just casually watch the news or read the paper or even visit Center City. And as I stated earlier, you have people circumventing the licensing requirements by availing themselves to the Florida loophole which is a problem more common to the City than the rest of the State.

It’s a balancing act between our rights and public safety. I don’t think the City is anti-gun as much as they are anti-gun in the wrong owner’s hands. Now, in their quest for public safety, I’m pretty sure they are viewed as anti-gun, but that’s the default position of any pro-gun organization or person where gun rights are perceived to be infringed upon. Bottom line, Philly is unique to the rest of the State and there are no easy answers.[/quote]

This is true. But state law trumps local law and when people have an issue there will be contention. This is that old conservative/liberal argument. Is there more crime in one area over another based on what reason. some say guns. Others say other social policies.

But making it harder on the reasonable guy can put his safety at risk in the attempt to make things safer for everyone.

128

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]greggio wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]greggio wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If open carry is so bad and dangerous, why do cops do it?[/quote]

There is no point to cops carrying concealed. If you see a cop you know he has a gun, concealing it won’t fool anybody.[/quote]

not nonuniform or off duty cops.[/quote]

I see what you mean. However, all of the nonuniform cops I know do not open carry, granted it is only a couple. I do know quite a few uniform guys who all carry concealed when the are off duty though, for the same reasons I mentioned in my other post.[/quote]

In Philadelphia, I’ve only seen detectives and plainsclothes LEO open carry. I’ve seen business owners “open carry” but only within and around the premises of the building. I’ve been here all my life and open carry is not the custom. That is the point…not whether it is “bad”.

It just occurred to me, that I’m arguing with a guy from TN holding a fish with the woods in the background. Now, the foregoing is not intended as an ad hominem in the hopes of undermining DD’s position, but it does perhaps illustrate he is as far removed from the customs and laws in Philadelphia as I am about that fish in his arms - which by the way, I can only assume it was a good fish, because I have no fucking idea what kind of fish it is and he thought enough of it to take a picture![/quote]

I work in a decent sized city and I grew up and went to school in a large city. Not philly, but I do have more experience than I’m getting credit for.

My line of inquiry on open carry is on honest question. I know several off duty cops that open carry. It just doesn’t seem like they would if it were inherently more dangerous. Maybe partially because it is much more common and accepted here (there are several guys that you’ll see with holsters on at work, though they don’t carry in the building)

And it’s a catfish. Not huge (big ones can get up in the 50+ pound range), but the picture was more a way of rubbing it in to my brother who didn’t catch a thing.

My wife and I like to take our dogs out hiking the farm. That as of now, is the only time I carry. And that’s mainly because of coyotes, lol. And yes, I agree that is a far removed reason from carrying in the big fancy city. Garsh.[/quote]

Look, I love TN - it wasn’t a put-down. I told you before, my best friend lives in Crossville and I’d seriously consider buying land down there and having a 2nd home. But it aint Philly. No one stated open carry is more dangerous - it’s just unusual there. Our respective cultures are different. My buddy’s son grew up from age 12 going onto his own land to shoot squirrels with a rifle. LOL I never touched a gun until I was older and I certainly didn’t own my own gun @ 12. Much different cultures my friend. And remember, the State bordering Philly (NJ) you can’t get a carry permit unless Jesus himself ordains it. I’m not sure about our other neighboring State, DE.[/quote]

If it gets you into this kind of trouble, it seems more dangerous.

And I didn’t get my first gun till 13 thank you very much.

And no offense taken. I lived in downtown Atlanta for a number of years, I chose to get out of that kind of environment.

I prefer a town with no traffic light, to one with a 4 hour rush hour and a 12 lane interstate. And neither of those statements is exaggeration.[/quote]

I prefer the same; in fact, I live 30 minutes outside philly in a very small town and I live outside town to boot. I purchased the most privacy and acreage I could afford and sacrificed house size to do it. I see a housing development, and my sphincter tightens at the thought of living that close to someone…it just ain’t natural!

However, what got this guy in the cross-hairs is simply doing something outside the custom. AND HE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS DOING! HE WAS USING A LITTLE USED EXCEPTION TO THE LAW TO THUMB HIS NOSE AT AND BAIT THE POLICE!

You really need to understand the environment in the City to understand that someone other than LEO walking around open carry is VERY unusual. Yes, it’s legal apparently, but that doesn’t make it the norm. It’s so far out of the norm, that the cop’s reaction is just as validly evidence of the foregoing as it is his ignorance of the law.

This is also a City struggling with gun violence and illegal gun ownership. Moreover, it’s a City where lots of people that wouldn’t get licensed in PA are using the Florida loophole to get a CCP. When you understand how dangerous our neighborhoods are, and the culture of illegal guns here, and the “custom” of this City, you understand perfectly well that the reaction by the police is to be EXPECTED and I full believe this guy expected it and welcomed it as well.

It does not excuse their abusive behavior, but let’s be realistic. They just responded to a arm guy that was non-compliant to lawful orders. We can argue all day if those orders were “reasonable”, but guess what? They were lawful and they were in the discretion of the officer that has to evaluate his and the public’s safety in a split second.

As someone said before, they both appear to share some fault. However, and this is important, I bet given another chance, the cop might have handled it differently. Sadly, the guy carrying would not. He knew what he was doing and he was trying to get a reaction. The time to argue his case is when the cop is comfortable that he is not a threat, not when he’s standing there, still armed, still standing, arguing with the cop! It’s just inexcusable. And it’s fallacious to compare his conduct with the cop’s - they are two separate issues, one not excusing the other.

And seriously, let’s not pretend LEO is generally fully-versed in all the technicalities of the law - they are not. Even lawyers and judges frequently have to avail themselves to legal research. [/quote]

This is all true. Knowing the real rules of behavior and the real rules of an area is a good way to avoid problems.

I wouldn’t go into a biker bar frequented by an outlaw motorcycle club. I wouldn’t go into a bar frequented by predominantly black guys in the bad part of town.

It’s not racism or some snobby attitude against the bikers, it’s common sense. years ago I read In the Gravest Extreme by Masaad Ayoob. It’s a great book about laws in relation to self defense shootings. Laws will vary, but there are many truths in the book.

One story in the book laid out how a guy shot and killed one fellow in bar and wounded the other. The second guy was paralyzed. It was ruled self defense and the shooting was jsutified.

He lost in civil court however because he was in this bar two previous Fridays. He was beaten up twice and told not to come back by these two. His attitude was I have aright to be here.

So he came back the next Friday with a gun. the fellows started in on him and the assault quickly turned potentially deadly. He drew his gun and shot both, killing one and wounding the other as I stated previously. And he of course could have had a beer at home.

He could Have gone somewhere else. He could have seen a movie. But since he was stubborn he lost everything in a civil suit . thinking beats I have my rights every time.

129

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]greggio wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]greggio wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If open carry is so bad and dangerous, why do cops do it?[/quote]

There is no point to cops carrying concealed. If you see a cop you know he has a gun, concealing it won’t fool anybody.[/quote]

not nonuniform or off duty cops.[/quote]

I see what you mean. However, all of the nonuniform cops I know do not open carry, granted it is only a couple. I do know quite a few uniform guys who all carry concealed when the are off duty though, for the same reasons I mentioned in my other post.[/quote]

In Philadelphia, I’ve only seen detectives and plainsclothes LEO open carry. I’ve seen business owners “open carry” but only within and around the premises of the building. I’ve been here all my life and open carry is not the custom. That is the point…not whether it is “bad”.

It just occurred to me, that I’m arguing with a guy from TN holding a fish with the woods in the background. Now, the foregoing is not intended as an ad hominem in the hopes of undermining DD’s position, but it does perhaps illustrate he is as far removed from the customs and laws in Philadelphia as I am about that fish in his arms - which by the way, I can only assume it was a good fish, because I have no fucking idea what kind of fish it is and he thought enough of it to take a picture![/quote]

I work in a decent sized city and I grew up and went to school in a large city. Not philly, but I do have more experience than I’m getting credit for.

My line of inquiry on open carry is on honest question. I know several off duty cops that open carry. It just doesn’t seem like they would if it were inherently more dangerous. Maybe partially because it is much more common and accepted here (there are several guys that you’ll see with holsters on at work, though they don’t carry in the building)

And it’s a catfish. Not huge (big ones can get up in the 50+ pound range), but the picture was more a way of rubbing it in to my brother who didn’t catch a thing.

My wife and I like to take our dogs out hiking the farm. That as of now, is the only time I carry. And that’s mainly because of coyotes, lol. And yes, I agree that is a far removed reason from carrying in the big fancy city. Garsh.[/quote]

Look, I love TN - it wasn’t a put-down. I told you before, my best friend lives in Crossville and I’d seriously consider buying land down there and having a 2nd home. But it aint Philly. No one stated open carry is more dangerous - it’s just unusual there. Our respective cultures are different. My buddy’s son grew up from age 12 going onto his own land to shoot squirrels with a rifle. LOL I never touched a gun until I was older and I certainly didn’t own my own gun @ 12. Much different cultures my friend. And remember, the State bordering Philly (NJ) you can’t get a carry permit unless Jesus himself ordains it. I’m not sure about our other neighboring State, DE.[/quote]

If it gets you into this kind of trouble, it seems more dangerous.

And I didn’t get my first gun till 13 thank you very much.

And no offense taken. I lived in downtown Atlanta for a number of years, I chose to get out of that kind of environment.

I prefer a town with no traffic light, to one with a 4 hour rush hour and a 12 lane interstate. And neither of those statements is exaggeration.[/quote]

I prefer the same; in fact, I live 30 minutes outside philly in a very small town and I live outside town to boot. I purchased the most privacy and acreage I could afford and sacrificed house size to do it. I see a housing development, and my sphincter tightens at the thought of living that close to someone…it just ain’t natural!

However, what got this guy in the cross-hairs is simply doing something outside the custom. AND HE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS DOING! HE WAS USING A LITTLE USED EXCEPTION TO THE LAW TO THUMB HIS NOSE AT AND BAIT THE POLICE!

You really need to understand the environment in the City to understand that someone other than LEO walking around open carry is VERY unusual. Yes, it’s legal apparently, but that doesn’t make it the norm. It’s so far out of the norm, that the cop’s reaction is just as validly evidence of the foregoing as it is his ignorance of the law.

This is also a City struggling with gun violence and illegal gun ownership. Moreover, it’s a City where lots of people that wouldn’t get licensed in PA are using the Florida loophole to get a CCP. When you understand how dangerous our neighborhoods are, and the culture of illegal guns here, and the “custom” of this City, you understand perfectly well that the reaction by the police is to be EXPECTED and I full believe this guy expected it and welcomed it as well.

It does not excuse their abusive behavior, but let’s be realistic. They just responded to a arm guy that was non-compliant to lawful orders. We can argue all day if those orders were “reasonable”, but guess what? They were lawful and they were in the discretion of the officer that has to evaluate his and the public’s safety in a split second.

As someone said before, they both appear to share some fault. However, and this is important, I bet given another chance, the cop might have handled it differently. Sadly, the guy carrying would not. He knew what he was doing and he was trying to get a reaction. The time to argue his case is when the cop is comfortable that he is not a threat, not when he’s standing there, still armed, still standing, arguing with the cop! It’s just inexcusable. And it’s fallacious to compare his conduct with the cop’s - they are two separate issues, one not excusing the other.

And seriously, let’s not pretend LEO is generally fully-versed in all the technicalities of the law - they are not. Even lawyers and judges frequently have to avail themselves to legal research. [/quote]

This is all true. Knowing the real rules of behavior and the real rules of an area is a good way to avoid problems.

I wouldn’t go into a biker bar frequented by an outlaw motorcycle club. I wouldn’t go into a bar frequented by predominantly black guys in the bad part of town.

It’s not racism or some snobby attitude against the bikers, it’s common sense. years ago I read In the Gravest Extreme by Masaad Ayoob. It’s a great book about laws in relation to self defense shootings. Laws will vary, but there are many truths in the book.

One story in the book laid out how a guy shot and killed one fellow in bar and wounded the other. The second guy was paralyzed. It was ruled self defense and the shooting was jsutified.

He lost in civil court however because he was in this bar two previous Fridays. He was beaten up twice and told not to come back by these two. His attitude was I have aright to be here.

So he came back the next Friday with a gun. the fellows started in on him and the assault quickly turned potentially deadly. He drew his gun and shot both, killing one and wounding the other as I stated previously. And he of course could have had a beer at home.

He could Have gone somewhere else. He could have seen a movie. But since he was stubborn he lost everything in a civil suit . thinking beats I have my rights every time.[/quote]

He should sue for damages too. Why is it he is expected to act reasonably and the criminals aren’t?

134

Push, you cannot be listened to. You don’t live in philly.

137

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

…Dude is a dick, looking for trouble. He’s exactly the kind of guy that should not have a permit, “in my opinion”.[/quote]

The 2nd Amendment does not provide the authority whereupon mere “dicks” can be denied their right to keep and bear.

There are many on this very site who would eagerly declare YOU to be a dick…and me too for that matter. Does that mean you and I should not be permitted to carry a tool that fires a ballistic projectile (whether we do it for self defense or not is irrelevant as the 2nd A. does require a motive, it merely reaffirms an inalienable right)?

  • I italicized “permitted” for a reason. Can someone tell me why?[/quote]

I think the above is patently fallacious, and I think you’re damn smart enough to know it. I also think those that would eagerly declare you or I “dicks” are not that damn intelligent, but I digress.

You’re comparing my off-handed comment about the guy to a legal standard and it wasn’t my point at all. The right to carry a firearm comes with certain responsibilities under the law, not the least of which is to cooperate with LEO. He did NOT cooperate - that much is clear. Say what you want about the officer, his professionalism, his ignorance of the technicality of law - but none of it excuses the actions of the guy. And the directive clearly makes it City policy to detain open carry citizens.

138

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

…The dude was a retard, also. He was asking for trouble.[/quote]

Pretty much the same thing was uttered by governor of Massachusetts when he ordered Sam Adams’ arrest over 200 years ago.[/quote]

So you’re comparing this to Sam Adams? Seriously? Now the guy is some crusader for rights? That’s a stretch. I’ll tell you what’s going to happen; they are going to close that exception to open carry. PA will become a concealed State. Mark my words.

139

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Push, you cannot be listened to. You don’t live in philly.[/quote]

You’re being ridiculous. You guys fancy yourselves intellectuals over in PWI and not one of you can debate without a fallacious crutch. No one said the above. The problem is, you weren’t making strong points in support of your “argument” and, you come from a different culture. Understanding the culture, and what is permissible and customary up here is important to understanding the nuances of this encounter. Thus far, you have shown a startling ignorance of the law in general, and our culture.

140

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Push, you cannot be listened to. You don’t live in philly.[/quote]

I completely understand TBG’s and Tom’s points about practicality. I actually disagree with just a small portion of TBG’s posts. So I am consigned to essentially arguing this subject from a basic philosophical point of view AND I think it’s entirely necessary. Otherwise the slippery slope scenarios are legion and endless AND completely plausible.[/quote]

Push, there is no slippery slope here. There is only PA closing the loophole. Open carry is not expressly provided for; it just isn’t expressly prohibited as I understand it. I guarantee you the average Philadelphian does not want citizens walking around open carry, whether that feeling is rational or not. It will not fly here. There is too much gun violence here for open carry to ever be casually accepted.

I agree with you philosophically by the way - it just aint gonna happen here. What this guy has done, is made the open carry exception a headline and you can bet your snowmobile and your harem that right this moment, the politicians in Philadelphia and those in Harrisburg are discussing closing this loophole. I hardly call that a win. No more slope sir. Please don’t wager either your snowmobile or your harem - a boy needs his toys :slight_smile: