Pervasive Anti-Americanism

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]semper_fi wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:

I think we all,European and American alike,ignore the Chinese at our own peril.To not recognise them as a superpower,even though they are a very insular one,is foolish.
I don’t think that there is any armed force in the world capable of defeating them in a conventional capacity,just through sheer weight of numbers.And they are always learning more about us than we are about them,with a much longer term view of events.
We should be doing the same…because resources are scarce and will dwindle,and the west may not find a chair when the music stops.

They’re preparing for war with us you know. They have already made up their minds to invade Taiwan and they know the U.S. will try to stop them so they’re quickly building up their military. And they’re specifically focusing on weapons like GPS jammers or EMPs to knock out satelites because they think that’s our weakness. Scary shit.[/quote]

Personally I think they will wear the west out economically,over a long period of time…coporate interests will invest with China out of sheer greed (biggest emerging consumer market etc blah blah can’t afford not to be there blah blah)and that will be how the west will compromise itself…just look at the ‘made in china’ labels on the equipment we are all using right now to air our opinions on the web.
The west will give up its position as the economic power in the world willingly and without a whimper.Not in our lifetimes,but in our childrens,for sure.
And we will have deserved whatever that brings,because we are arrogant and ignorant.
Or maybe I don’t see the picture very clearly hehe…time will tell.

102

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…a short history lesson: after the invasion of Normandy, the americans wanted to get to Berlin as fast as possible to prevent the Russians from taking over completely. They left the liberation of the low countries in the able hands of Canadians, Polish, British and a few Australian and New Zealand troops. I have yet to see people from those countries demand respect and gratitude for that. Why is that, you think?

[/quote]

This is totally untrue on every level. America did not race to Berlin, FDR gave Berlin to the Russians. Ike was critcized for NOT racing to Berlin when he had the chance. He did not do it because the deal was already cut and if he would have made it to Berlin first he would have had to withdraw from the territory promised to the Soviets.

And my brothers wife is Belgian. Her parents were liberated by American soldiers.

Your understanding of history appears to be as flawed as your understanding of current events.

103

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…a short history lesson: after the invasion of Normandy, the americans wanted to get to Berlin as fast as possible to prevent the Russians from taking over completely. They left the liberation of the low countries in the able hands of Canadians, Polish, British and a few Australian and New Zealand troops. I have yet to see people from those countries demand respect and gratitude for that. Why is that, you think?

This is totally untrue on every level. America did not race to Berlin, FDR gave Berlin to the Russians. Ike was critcized for NOT racing to Berlin when he had the chance. He did not do it because the deal was already cut and if he would have made it to Berlin first he would have had to withdraw from the territory promised to the Soviets.

And my brothers wife is Belgian. Her parents were liberated by American soldiers.

Your understanding of history appears to be as flawed as your understanding of current events.[/quote]

That Europe owes a large debt to the U.S. for their effort and sacrifice in WW2 Is an undeniable fact.To pretend otherwise does us no favours at all.The other undisputable fact is that it was the Russians that broke the german army at a not inconsiderable cost of some 20 million lives,roughly split equally between soldier and civillians.
That is fully a third of ALL casualties in ww2,on all theaters.
So if it wasn’t for the Russians,all us Europeans would probably be speaking German.
And if it wasn’t for the Americans,we would probably all be speaking Russian.
So take your pick.
But both nations deserve our gratitude.Whatever may be happening geopolitically right now,wether one agrees with it or not,does not make one bit of difference to the historical reality of who helped who during those very,very dark days of European history.
So man up and give thanks and respect where it is due.
Then we can all argue the current state of affairs to our hearts content with whatever point of view we care to believe in.

104

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Until we are knocked off - nothing will change. You can look 50 years down the road with baited breath if you like, but the U.S. will still be at the front of the pack, while Europe continues to bitch and moan.

I think we all,European and American alike,ignore the Chinese at our own peril.To not recognise them as a superpower,even though they are a very insular one,is foolish.
I don’t think that there is any armed force in the world capable of defeating them in a conventional capacity,just through sheer weight of numbers.And they are always learning more about us than we are about them,with a much longer term view of events.
We should be doing the same…because resources are scarce and will dwindle,and the west may not find a chair when the music stops.[/quote]

China is certainly a nation not being ignored by America. Before Sept. 11 a lot of U.S military planning was directed toward a possible conflict in Asia.

Chinese influence in the Middle East, the prime region of strategic resources, is dwarfed by the U.S… It is clear that the U.S values its influence in the region very highly and I don’t see our leaders allowing a vacuum of power to open up there for the Chinese or anyone else. We certainly didn’t allow it during the cold war.

The idea that no one could match the Chinese military conventionally is very debateable. Our airforce and navy would most likely dominate any conflict with Asia and the Chinese are generations behind us in those forces.

A very powerful reality of the age of the lone superpower that isn’t often articulated is that the U.S. military has achieved its long sought after goal of nuclear primacy.

In all scenarios where the U.S. engages an enemy in nuclear conflict preemptively the probabilty of the attack completly destroying the enemies ability to retaliate are all but garaunteed. At the same time the chance of any other nation or even group of nations doing so to the U.S. is almost impossible.

Such a powerful trump card along with the huge momentum of this nations infrastucture, military, and world influence is why we have no real choice but to police the world, especially the middle east because of the importance of its energy to all of humanity. And also why I agree with, “You can look 50 years down the road with baited breath if you like, but the U.S. will still be at the front of the pack”.

And that will often mean we have to equate U.S. interest as the best interest of the entire world. Such a stance is needed but obviously a very dangerous responsibility. It is hardly surprising that this reality worries many of our own citizens and allies and is outright opposed by many such as Iran.

To some the nightmare is that our nation is the one wielding so much power and they will be the ones crashing planes into buildings and breaking laws to acquire weapons of mass destruction to use against us.

I agree that all this power is scary shit but we built this superpower for a lot of the right reasons and to defend ourselves and the world against real tyranny. The stage is set. We can’t unmake this burden or the dangers we face as a nation and a world because of it.

To people like Ephrem again I say that I defend your right and even need to voice your lack of faith in America but we are the ones carrying the brunt of the burden and I hope you are proven very wrong.

105

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

Didn’t say that. God created this country to be the guiding light of the world. Notice how its been the USA to slowly expunge evil, disease, poverty, hatred, from around the globe. Germany is peaceful and productive as is Japan. China and India have adopted capitalism (in various forms), and the USSR is gone.

Someday, most people of the world will enjoy a peaceful, clean, healthy middle-class American lifestyle.

Will they thank us?

[/quote]

Good point in the first paragraph man. Perhaps more capitalist, stable countries will bring more harmony, pece and prosperity.

In your 2nd paragraph though, you express just what it is that the ‘world’ dislikes. You said that one day, everyone will be as a current middle-class American. The problem in this is that many don’t want this identity, despite it’s ‘democratising’ nature it is not right to impose a sterile uniformity on the whole world.

I won’t even go into the ‘middle-class’ bit. I’m not that, i work hard to get ANY cash. Marxism etc etc.

There are diverse races, colours, sexes, sensibilities and histories in the world.

The attacks of 9/11, and those before, and those that may come after, are not justified by anything. They can’t be.

Just from a non-US perspective though, you have a country. That’s fine. I hope you live peacefully and die comfortably of old age. If you are attacked, of course your first impulse will be to defend.

But it wrong to assume that the ails of the world, including despots, religious fundamentalism and terrorism, can be allayed by making these distinct countries more like America, in war or otherwise.

To try to homogenise the world in your image will obviously make you unpopular, and people will fight you to the death. You can see that, can’t you?

Fightin Irish said [quote]

9/11 is a result of support for Israel. Say what you want about whether we should or shouldn’t support Israel, but just realize that 9/11 is a product of that.

Every action has a reaction. Even we can’t escape that, no matter how large our Army or how threatening our sabers sound.[/quote]

While i think the causes may be more complex and numerous than just Israel, this is a point.

If the US acted more like a respectful neighbour than a young bossy know-it-all, you would be attacked less, physically and verbally.

106

I would just like to remark that most conversations of this type, all lead to Israel, ww2, the war of independence, capitalism or some shit.

That’s why i read history, to learn from past mistakes. Many of the same, intolerant, rash mistakes are being repeated. These days munitions are much more potent.

I suggest Americans ask themselves ‘Why do they dislike us?’ before they ask others.

Most things relating to the mideast (i’m assuming this is a prime source of hate) relates to arrogant policies, causing reactions. PROVE ME WRONG.

quoting hollifilo [quote]doesn’t it make sense to take in active role in those countries that want to wipe Isreal, where we have “a vested interest and investment in its government”, off the map?[/quote]

Do you see what i mean? It’s exclusive-inclusive. Those outside the ‘us’ (US) aren’t regarded as worthy of care or respect.

I also cosign iscariot. Israel are not USA’s pet now, if they ever were. If your interests ever diverge (no more oil) watch tears appear i the relationship. Precedent? USS Liberty.

I can’t really get into Israel stuff here. Done that.

Needless to say, aggression begets aggression, and any empire/state/balance born out of military imposition is very tenuous.

107

Perhaps this is relevant to the discussion…

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,6119,2-10-1462_1998418,00.html

108

[quote]holifila wrote:
Perhaps this is relevant to the discussion…

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,6119,2-10-1462_1998418,00.html[/quote]

Great link. Blair always seems to impress me with his insight.

109

[quote]Heliotrope wrote:
holifila wrote:
Perhaps this is relevant to the discussion…

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,6119,2-10-1462_1998418,00.html

Great link. Blair always seems to impress me with his insight.

[/quote]

If you don’t want to follow the link, here’s the quote from Blair:

“whimper whimper whimper, why don’t any of you like me and my bessie friend? Even Gordon Brown has turned against me. At this rate I wont be assured of my place in history”

Actually, he makes a decent point about needing America on board, although he seemingly forgets that him and Bush act without any regard for the International Communitys’ opinion anyway. His words sound somewhat hollow in view of his past actions.

This however, is true:
“We will not win the battle against global extremism unless we win it at the level of values as much as force”.

In fact, I would go further and say that the current approach - force alone - is helping extremism more than it harms. Whether or not the self-righteous twat will do anything to act on his words is another matter. He wont be around for much longer anyway.

110

[quote]OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
9/11 is a result of support for Israel. Say what you want about whether we should or shouldn’t support Israel, but just realize that 9/11 is a product of that.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.

Bin Laden and his thugs do not hate our freedoms. They aren’t jealous of us. They don’t want to kill us because we are “infidels”.

If any of you actually took the time to read his speeches (which aren’t published in our newspapers), he clearly states the reason for his anger is our support of Israel. He states his anger started in the early 80s when we stood by and let the Israelis destroy Beirut.

Of course this will never be debated here in our media, since the one freedom we don’t have here is debating whether or not our support for Israel is justified, since the minute you question that you are labelled as an “anti-Semite” or a “self-hating Jew” if you happen to be Jewish.
[/quote]

Or maybe he cribs off of paranoid stuff like this.

111

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
I suggest Americans ask themselves ‘Why do they dislike us?’ before they ask others.
[/quote]

That is the most estrogen-filled garbage I have read in some time.

This is not a fucking popularity contest. The Euros have always disliked us to one degree or another be it the French, or the Germans, or whatever socialistic country of the hour decides to take issue with the U.S.

Europe is just like the terrorists in that no matter what the U.S. does - we will be disliked.

In short - who gives a shit about why we are disliked? You spend our money, depend on our trade, and require our protection.

Much like the spoiled child throwing a fit, Europe just needs to sit down and shut the hell up.

112

[quote]Heliotrope wrote:

China is certainly a nation not being ignored by America. Before Sept. 11 a lot of U.S military planning was directed toward a possible conflict in Asia.

Chinese influence in the Middle East, the prime region of strategic resources, is dwarfed by the U.S… It is clear that the U.S values its influence in the region very highly and I don’t see our leaders allowing a vacuum of power to open up there for the Chinese or anyone else. We certainly didn’t allow it during the cold war.

The idea that no one could match the Chinese military conventionally is very debateable. Our airforce and navy would most likely dominate any conflict with Asia and the Chinese are generations behind us in those forces.

A very powerful reality of the age of the lone superpower that isn’t often articulated is that the U.S. military has achieved its long sought after goal of nuclear primacy.

In all scenarios where the U.S. engages an enemy in nuclear conflict preemptively the probabilty of the attack completly destroying the enemies ability to retaliate are all but garaunteed. At the same time the chance of any other nation or even group of nations doing so to the U.S. is almost impossible.

Such a powerful trump card along with the huge momentum of this nations infrastucture, military, and world influence is why we have no real choice but to police the world, especially the middle east because of the importance of its energy to all of humanity. And also why I agree with, “You can look 50 years down the road with baited breath if you like, but the U.S. will still be at the front of the pack”.

And that will often mean we have to equate U.S. interest as the best interest of the entire world. Such a stance is needed but obviously a very dangerous responsibility. It is hardly surprising that this reality worries many of our own citizens and allies and is outright opposed by many such as Iran.

To some the nightmare is that our nation is the one wielding so much power and they will be the ones crashing planes into buildings and breaking laws to acquire weapons of mass destruction to use against us.

I agree that all this power is scary shit but we built this superpower for a lot of the right reasons and to defend ourselves and the world against real tyranny. The stage is set. We can’t unmake this burden or the dangers we face as a nation and a world because of it.

To people like Ephrem again I say that I defend your right and even need to voice your lack of faith in America but we are the ones carrying the brunt of the burden and I hope you are proven very wrong.[/quote]

…i’m glad you voiced your opinion in a calm and rational way, it actually made me understand better where you’re coming from. The problems the US are facing now, and in the future, are the result of it’s actions and it’s ambition to be the biggest guy on the block. I can only hope that the US have the maturity to cope with the responsability that goes with the territory. If it’s able to do that, and uphold the values it holds dear at the same time, then we might still have a peaceful future. I don’t think Bush does that though. Alot of people doubt his sincerety and fear he’s unable to solve these problems. Only time will tell…

113

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

This is totally untrue on every level. America did not race to Berlin, FDR gave Berlin to the Russians. Ike was critcized for NOT racing to Berlin when he had the chance. He did not do it because the deal was already cut and if he would have made it to Berlin first he would have had to withdraw from the territory promised to the Soviets.

And my brothers wife is Belgian. Her parents were liberated by American soldiers.

Your understanding of history appears to be as flawed as your understanding of current events.[/quote]

…you are right. I was wrong. After operation Market Garden failed miserably [check Wikipedia, it’s interesting] the subsequent liberation of the west and north of Holland stalled. For nearly a year, that part of the Netherlands had to suffer a grueling winter with very little food, while the Allied forces were bogged down in the Ardennes…

…so Belgium and the southern part of Holland were liberated nearly a year before Berlin fell to the Russians and the German army surrendered. It was this surrender that freed the rest of Holland on the 5th of May, which is still a national holiday. Since i’m from the west, i was taught that the liberation came after allies forces got to Berlin, which is true but it was far from a race…

…so american forces did not race towards Berlin, they were unable to do so due to the battle of the Bulge in the Ardennes. On the 25th of April, american and russian forces met: Elbe Day - Wikipedia…

114

[quote]JeffR wrote:
That’s a cute little story. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work when you are dealing with dictators. Surely, you, of all people, should understand the danger of appeasing dictators.

Turn your cheek on them and you will be destroyed (circa 1940).[/quote]

…are you thinking of Chamberlain waving a piece of paper? Who was talking about appeasing anyone? I sure as hell wasn’t (-:

[quote]If I were you, I surely wouldn’t base my self-esteem on my country.

Either way, it must be nice to sit on the sidelines and look down your nose at the players.[/quote]

…and where are you exactly in this scenario? Playing? Sure, it might come across as looking down on people, but strangely enough, and this is what you don’t want to get, people outside of the USA think you are looking down on them. Ofcourse this is of no concern to you, since you are the one superpower left, right?

[quote]Someday, you may be in the middle of the shitstorm.

You do realize that this is a global struggle between the forces of repression and hate versus the Democracies?[/quote]

…do you realize it isn’t?

[quote]holland may become an attractive target BECAUSE it is so inconsequential. Imagine having a ready made soft target for the terrorists to make one of their “statements.”

Give it some thought.[/quote]

…perhaps it will, but that is beside the point. Derision of a country is pointless if one isn’t nationalistic…

[quote]As far as iran goes, we are pushing the europeans way out front on this one. Remember how America “defied the international community” in 2003?

How is the self-same “international community” doing, circa 2006?

Anyone think the europeans have the stomach to stare down iran?

JeffR

[/quote]

…fine, by all means, invade Iran, but without nuclear intervention you won’t win. Now, do you support the use of nukes in this case? Can’t remember if you anwered that, thanks…

115

…you do realise more British soldiers were killed at operation Market Garden than american soldiers? It was only a few weeks ago that M.G. was commemorated, and the few veterans that are still alive came, as they did every year, to remember the fallen and to accept the tribute given to them by the dutch. I fully realise the debt of gratitude we own THEM for the sacrifices they made, and they came from not just america, but the UK, Poland and Canada. Remember that the next time you steal someone elses thunder…

[quote]I read your NONSENSE comparison between the United States and nazi germany.

You do realize, that if we were “totalitarian” you would be under our boot?

Slogans like “take holland, pay no taxes ever again” would be on every American street corner.

You could do absolutely nothing about it circa 1940. The United States would overrun holland much more quickly than the germans.

So for the 10,000 th time, europenas are welcome to criticise. However, the very moment you begin to act holier than thou, get ready to be smacked around.

JeffR [/quote]

…you DID nothing until '41, so what’s your point? Anyway, your tough-guy posturing does not gain you the respect you are screaming for, and that is indicative of how the USA is perceived by many. That is a pity, because i now realise that if one country has the ability to do RIGHT, it’s the USA. Only, if it goes wrong, we’re fucked…

116

What it all comes down to is that, when the time comes, it’ll have to be some 19 year old American man who’ll pay with his blood for all the stupid shit the world comes up with.

I think the world takes advantage of our compassion and morality. Being a country of honor, they know that the people of the USA will pick up the ‘tab’ for their evil and stupidity.

Watch for the day when we don’t. Watch for the day when their ‘check’ is returned: ACCOUNT OVERDRAWN.

117

What it all comes down to is that, when the time comes, it’ll have to be some 19 year old American man who’ll pay with his blood for all the stupid shit the world comes up with.

I think the world takes advantage of our compassion and morality. Being a country of honor, they know that the people of the USA will pick up the ‘tab’ for their evil and stupidity.

Watch for the day when we don’t. Watch for the day when their ‘check’ is returned: ACCOUNT OVERDRAWN.

118

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…you do realise more British soldiers were killed at operation Market Garden than american soldiers? It was only a few weeks ago that M.G. was commemorated, and the few veterans that are still alive came, as they did every year, to remember the fallen and to accept the tribute given to them by the dutch. I fully realise the debt of gratitude we own THEM for the sacrifices they made, and they came from not just america, but the UK, Poland and Canada. Remember that the next time you steal someone elses thunder…

I read your NONSENSE comparison between the United States and nazi germany.

You do realize, that if we were “totalitarian” you would be under our boot?

Slogans like “take holland, pay no taxes ever again” would be on every American street corner.

You could do absolutely nothing about it circa 1940. The United States would overrun holland much more quickly than the germans.

So for the 10,000 th time, europenas are welcome to criticise. However, the very moment you begin to act holier than thou, get ready to be smacked around.

JeffR

…you DID nothing until '41, so what’s your point? Anyway, your tough-guy posturing does not gain you the respect you are screaming for, and that is indicative of how the USA is perceived by many. That is a pity, because i now realise that if one country has the ability to do RIGHT, it’s the USA. Only, if it goes wrong, we’re fucked…[/quote]

Hey, fool.

Thanks, for amending your stupidity.

I missed your apology for your aggressive ignorance.

It’s so charitable of you to “admit” the Americans were in fact, involved.

Shall I continue to give you example of Americans in the low countries?

Would you have the stones to admit that your commentary is dead wrong?

I doubt it.

I also wanted to give a shout out to all the stupid asses who continuously say, “Hey, America did nothing until 1941.”

Ask danny rat aka the blade about my response to that one.

Better yet, scan my posts.

Then make an apology to all the American servicemen who lost their lives patrolling the Atlantic and elsewhere prior to war being declared.

Thank them for Lend Lease.

In summary, you are full of it and are making a fool of yourself.

JeffR

119

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
What it all comes down to is that, when the time comes, it’ll have to be some 19 year old American man who’ll pay with his blood for all the stupid shit the world comes up with.

I think the world takes advantage of our compassion and morality. Being a country of honor, they know that the people of the USA will pick up the ‘tab’ for their evil and stupidity.

Watch for the day when we don’t. Watch for the day when their ‘check’ is returned: ACCOUNT OVERDRAWN.[/quote]

my god…

120

[quote]rainjack wrote:
dannyrat wrote:
I suggest Americans ask themselves ‘Why do they dislike us?’ before they ask others.

That is the most estrogen-filled garbage I have read in some time.

This is not a fucking popularity contest. The Euros have always disliked us to one degree or another be it the French, or the Germans, or whatever socialistic country of the hour decides to take issue with the U.S.

Europe is just like the terrorists in that no matter what the U.S. does - we will be disliked.

In short - who gives a shit about why we are disliked? You spend our money, depend on our trade, and require our protection.

Much like the spoiled child throwing a fit, Europe just needs to sit down and shut the hell up. [/quote]

why estrogen filled? Because his view is contrary to your own? Or because it doesn’t involve blindly extolling the virtues of your country and disregarding any negative comments made about it, regardless of their validity?

I forgot, a real ‘T-man’ doesn’t waste his time trying to empathise with those who disagree with him. He just beats the shit out of them and carries on his way. Yeeeee haaaaw.

As for needing your protection, as far as I know terrorism is most rife in those countries, (like ours - the UK) that also chose to dive headfirst into the current ‘war on terror’. Don’t hear of many suicide bombers in Scandinavia or France.