Pervasive Anti-Americanism

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]ephrem wrote:
hedo wrote:

Depends what you consider reason. Many in the US view the European outlook on world issues to be naive. For example the EU dealings with Iran. They’ve played the EU like a fiddle but nobody seems to care or realize it.

The US is only considered totalitarian by those with a grudge to bear both in the US and abroad.

The Hague…interesting. The Europeans certainly have a lot of experience with war crimes I’ll give you that.

…just to make a point: i’ve worked as a bouncer for quite a while, and found that it was sometimes better to let my opponent believe he got the better of me [without the use of violence] if that means the situation got defused, and i got what i wanted. When you allow ego to get in the way, things tend to blow up in your face…

…where do you draw the line? Would you resort to nuking Iran if necessary? Pre-emptive? Think about that for a moment, and then reassess your claim i bear a grudge. Please remember, i don’t rely on my country, or it’s achievements, for a sense of self-esteem…
[/quote]

Would I use military force to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons…yes. Would I offer them a chance to avoid such an outcome? Of course. Hopefully it doesn’t come to that.

I think we should exhaust all possible alternatives before considering military force. In the end they can’t be permitted to have them because of the public statements they made and the fact they are a state sponsor or terrorism.

That’s great you don’t rely on your country or it’s achievments for self esteem. I don’t either but I am proud if it and my own contributions. My statement was directed at those who have bought into the propoganda that the US is a totalitarian regime. If that is your opinion I would argue your position isn’t well thought out or reasonable and would be driven by something else besides fact. If that doesn’t apply to you then so be it.

82

[quote]hedo wrote:

Funny stuff I admit.

The point being I don’t think the many in the US view the Western Europeans as relaible allies any longer. Britian excepted.

I don’t believe we would “flex our muscles” while the Europeans practice anything based on past history.

[/quote]

Ah, BS. We talk to them, you bomb them if they are not moving fast enough.

That is allmost standard procedure.

And, who is in Lebanon right now? You think American troops would be welcome there?

Are the Europeans in the Lebanon not also protecting Americas interests?

83

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Most of the world feels towards us like Wreckless does — no matter what we do, we’re evil. The problem is that America is the first country created by reason and not by chance or a club.

We especially remind the rest of the world of what THEY COULD BE, if they had balls and brains. Sure, we’re not perfect, but who is? We are the most moral and most noble country on earth and this will forever be a reproach against the immoral, the slothful, and the just plain evil in the rest of the world.

God bless (and has blessed!) the United States of America, God’s strong right hand here on earth!![/quote]

Have you been to every single country on Earth?

Saying 9/11 was a joke, or insignificant is SICK and WRONG.

That doesn’t mean I think we’re the worst OR the best country on Earth.

We were by FAR founded on the best ideals, but we have strayed from those ideals. Just because I want to make America better does not make me Unamerican. I can just as easily say that those who want to change America OR keep it the same “hate” America.

Conservatives throw around the word hate as if it can classify those who wish to change America. Those who don’t think we’re at all perfect yet.

We don’t have the greatest standard of living, our envirmental standards are ridiculousaly lagging, we’re outsourcing and destroying our own economy. Our two party system is ripping our country in half, while both sides do very little differently in reality. We have a low minimum wage, we have poverty, and a rapidly shrinking middle class (which neither party truly caters to).

We also have liberty, freedom of speech and the press, and these liberties that we hold so dear. These are the things that are American. Taking these away unless absolutly necessary is
Unamerican". We have a education system that is rapidly failing, but we have the potential to be so much greater.

We have the money, the manpower, and the foundation to be the greatest nation on Earth. But can any nation truly be, the BEST? No.

But I digress, America is a very young nation, not even 300 years old. We have a LONG way to go, and we’ve started far ahead of many other nations.

We are not the Nation of God. We never have been, never will be. That is partially what makes us so great, we are founded on no one God, no one religion, no one beliefe. We are a combination of thoughts, not one prevailing one. This is where the two party system fails.

To convey these multiple schools of thought, and allow the choice of what people actually want, instead of what they think is “better than that other guy”.

84

[quote]orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:

What’s Austria going to do? Not a hell of a lot.

France? If we need help surrendering, they’ll be the first ones we call.

Germany? Maybe - but they may want to watch us lose one.

Western Europe is delusional if they think we will need their help. We haven’t had them help us at all since the 18th century.

The 18th century was yesterday and the 23th is right around the corner.

We get that.

The Arabs get that.

The Chinese never even thought it could be otherwise.

America is on top for 50 years know and allready thinks it`s the new Rome?

Who knows who will need what from whom in 20 years?[/quote]

Very well said. I don’t agree 100%, but as said, we are YOUNG.

85

[quote]rainjack wrote:

It’s more like 100 years. 90 for sure.

But in over 200 years we have not needed any help. I doubt we’ll be looking for it from Europe.

China is China because of the American dollar.

The mid-east will never fight a war inside our borders - there is no place for them to cowar here.

I don’t think we are Rome. We surpassed them in wealth and power long ago. The U.S. the gold standard now. Make excuses and shitty comebacks all you want. The truth is the truth. Even you know that - inspite of your wishing otherwise.

That’s why you waste your time here on an american board.

[/quote]

The US never needed help in the last 200 years? I must get me one of them American history books…

You are not the new Rome. Not even close. Not even the British Empire. They ruled the world and the US is far away from doing that.

Athens, maybe…

Plus, I am too lazy to learn Chinese.

And I am not a womens gymnast or swimmer.

86

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

Funny stuff I admit.

The point being I don’t think the many in the US view the Western Europeans as relaible allies any longer. Britian excepted.

I don’t believe we would “flex our muscles” while the Europeans practice anything based on past history.

Ah, BS. We talk to them, you bomb them if they are not moving fast enough.

That is allmost standard procedure.

And, who is in Lebanon right now? You think American troops would be welcome there?

Are the Europeans in the Lebanon not also protecting Americas interests?[/quote]

Ah yes quite the mobilization to the Middle East. 13 tanks I here from the French. Hesbollah has not doubt beat a hasty retreat.

Protecting everyones interest. Remember we made the deal.

87

[quote]hedo wrote:
Would I use military force to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons…yes. Would I offer them a chance to avoid such an outcome? Of course. Hopefully it doesn’t come to that.

I think we should exhaust all possible alternatives before considering military force. In the end they can’t be permitted to have them because of the public statements they made and the fact they are a state sponsor or terrorism.[/quote]

…you know what? I agree with the fact that a nation like Iran should not have acces to nuclear weapons, but i also think that military intervention is doomed. During the Iraq/Iran war, Iran had children clearing minefields by walking into the fields. They did this because they wanted too. IMO, there is only one way to prevent Iran from getting nukes, and that is through diplomacy and international sanctions…

[quote]That’s great you don’t rely on your country or it’s achievments for self esteem. I don’t either but I am proud if it and my own contributions. My statement was directed at those who have bought into the propoganda that the US is a totalitarian regime. If that is your opinion I would argue your position isn’t well thought out or reasonable and would be driven by something else besides fact. If that doesn’t apply to you then so be it.

[/quote]

Totalitarian, adj 1: characterized by a government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control; “a totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul”- Arthur M.Schlesinger,

…yes, it doesn’t apply just yet, but don’t you think you’re in danger of getting there soon? This is a serious question, because as far as i can tell, the USA is no longer the land of the free, but the land of the fearful. The tough-guy posturing is just a symptom of that, or at least, that is how it comes across…

88

[quote]hedo wrote:

Ah yes quite the mobiliation to the Middle East. 13 tanks I here from the French. Hesbollah has not doubt beat a hasty retreat.

Protecting everyones interest. Remember we made the deal.
[/quote]

And still could not go there yourself, which was kind of my point.

Alas, we could, we did, it also serves Americas interests.

See how that works?

89

[quote]ephrem wrote:
hedo wrote:
Would I use military force to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons…yes. Would I offer them a chance to avoid such an outcome? Of course. Hopefully it doesn’t come to that.

I think we should exhaust all possible alternatives before considering military force. In the end they can’t be permitted to have them because of the public statements they made and the fact they are a state sponsor or terrorism.

…you know what? I agree with the fact that a nation like Iran should not have acces to nuclear weapons, but i also think that military intervention is doomed. During the Iraq/Iran war, Iran had children clearing minefields by walking into the fields. They did this because they wanted too. IMO, there is only one way to prevent Iran from getting nukes, and that is through diplomacy and international sanctions…

That’s great you don’t rely on your country or it’s achievments for self esteem. I don’t either but I am proud if it and my own contributions. My statement was directed at those who have bought into the propoganda that the US is a totalitarian regime. If that is your opinion I would argue your position isn’t well thought out or reasonable and would be driven by something else besides fact. If that doesn’t apply to you then so be it.

Totalitarian, adj 1: characterized by a government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control; “a totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul”- Arthur M.Schlesinger,

…yes, it doesn’t apply just yet, but don’t you think you’re in danger of getting there soon? This is a serious question, because as far as i can tell, the USA is no longer the land of the free, but the land of the fearful. The tough-guy posturing is just a symptom of that, or at least, that is how it comes across…

[/quote]

It doesn’t apply yet and will not anytime in the future.

We are not as fearful as you think, just prudent.

Come for a visit. We’re pretty vibrant and we have no shortage of folks who immigrate here for the freedom and opportunity.

90

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Most of the world feels towards us like Wreckless does — no matter what we do, we’re evil. The problem is that America is the first country created by reason and not by chance or a club.

We especially remind the rest of the world of what THEY COULD BE, if they had balls and brains. Sure, we’re not perfect, but who is? We are the most moral and most noble country on earth and this will forever be a reproach against the immoral, the slothful, and the just plain evil in the rest of the world.

God bless (and has blessed!) the United States of America, God’s strong right hand here on earth!!

Have you been to every single country on Earth?

Saying 9/11 was a joke, or insignificant is SICK and WRONG.

That doesn’t mean I think we’re the worst OR the best country on Earth.

We were by FAR founded on the best ideals, but we have strayed from those ideals. Just because I want to make America better does not make me Unamerican. I can just as easily say that those who want to change America OR keep it the same “hate” America.

Conservatives throw around the word hate as if it can classify those who wish to change America. Those who don’t think we’re at all perfect yet.

We don’t have the greatest standard of living, our envirmental standards are ridiculousaly lagging, we’re outsourcing and destroying our own economy. Our two party system is ripping our country in half, while both sides do very little differently in reality. We have a low minimum wage, we have poverty, and a rapidly shrinking middle class (which neither party truly caters to).

We also have liberty, freedom of speech and the press, and these liberties that we hold so dear. These are the things that are American. Taking these away unless absolutly necessary is
Unamerican". We have a education system that is rapidly failing, but we have the potential to be so much greater.

We have the money, the manpower, and the foundation to be the greatest nation on Earth. But can any nation truly be, the BEST? No.

But I digress, America is a very young nation, not even 300 years old. We have a LONG way to go, and we’ve started far ahead of many other nations.

We are not the Nation of God. We never have been, never will be. That is partially what makes us so great, we are founded on no one God, no one religion, no one beliefe. We are a combination of thoughts, not one prevailing one. This is where the two party system fails.

To convey these multiple schools of thought, and allow the choice of what people actually want, instead of what they think is “better than that other guy”.[/quote]

Great post. As an American, I’m much more concerned about our feckless government, the erosion of our moral authority, and the increasingly shaky nature of our economy, than I am beating my chest about how great we are. Doesn’t strike me as un-American in any way; a rich man doesn’t have to tell you he’s rich.

And as for “pervasive anti-Americanism”, a lot of it is simply jealousy and irrational hatred of the lone superpower, but a lot of it does stem from dumb things we do, particularly in the last six years. A lot of it is small stuff. For example, Britain has been a steadfast ally through thick and thin, and even stands by us in this increasingly disastrous war (their army is being hurt far more by over-deployment than ours). So what do we do, on a crucial defense venture, the F-35? Tell them to fuck off in regards to software codes and even possibly the jump-jet version. Suddenly the “special relationship” looks a lot less rosy. Our relationship with Turkey is an even better example.

91

[quote]hedo wrote:
It doesn’t apply yet and will not anytime in the future.

We are not as fearful as you think, just prudent.

Come for a visit. We’re pretty vibrant and we have no shortage of folks who immigrate here for the freedom and opportunity.

[/quote]

…i think you have great scenery, but i’ll have to go through Canada if i were to visit the US. There’s just too much paperwork and invasion of privacy to fly straight out to you. If i ever emigrate, it would be New Zealand, not the US. Besides, i have more freedom right here then i would have in the US, and as far as opportunity goes: i desire little except happiness, and i got that ((-:

92

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…a short history lesson: after the invasion of Normandy, the americans wanted to get to Berlin as fast as possible to prevent the Russians from taking over completely. They left the liberation of the low countries in the able hands of Canadians, Polish, British and a few Australian and New Zealand troops. I have yet to see people from those countries demand respect and gratitude for that. Why is that, you think?[/quote]

Hello, latest Anti-American dink.

ONCE AGAIN, either you don’t think we know history or you don’t.

Ok, before you try to teach history, learn YOUR OWN.

Please look up Operation Market Garden.

Then, immediately apologize to everyone on this board for your stupidity.

There is an off chance that a family member of an American lost might be reading this board.

Worse (for you trying not to give credit where it is clearly due) THERE MAY BE A VETERAN READING YOUR self-serving ignorance.

It’s all about twisting the facts to suit your Anti-American theory.

[quote]…i’m not anti-american pers?, but anti-totalitarian. If that, for some of you, amounts to the same thing, perhaps it’s wise to consider that any totalitarian regime at one time collapses under it’s own weight. If you feel you don’t have to listen to reason, you’ll succumb to ignorance…

[/quote]

I read your NONSENSE comparison between the United States and nazi germany.

You do realize, that if we were “totalitarian” you would be under our boot?

Slogans like “take holland, pay no taxes ever again” would be on every American street corner.

You could do absolutely nothing about it circa 1940. The United States would overrun holland much more quickly than the germans.

So for the 10,000 th time, europenas are welcome to criticise. However, the very moment you begin to act holier than thou, get ready to be smacked around.

JeffR

93

[quote]orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:

It’s more like 100 years. 90 for sure.

But in over 200 years we have not needed any help. I doubt we’ll be looking for it from Europe.

China is China because of the American dollar.

The mid-east will never fight a war inside our borders - there is no place for them to cowar here.

I don’t think we are Rome. We surpassed them in wealth and power long ago. The U.S. the gold standard now. Make excuses and shitty comebacks all you want. The truth is the truth. Even you know that - inspite of your wishing otherwise.

That’s why you waste your time here on an american board.

The US never needed help in the last 200 years? I must get me one of them American history books…

You are not the new Rome. Not even close. Not even the British Empire. They ruled the world and the US is far away from doing that.

Athens, maybe…

Plus, I am too lazy to learn Chinese.

And I am not a womens gymnast or swimmer.[/quote]

Name a time since the war of 1812 that we needed Euro troops to help us in any war. I doubt you will find any. France bank rolled the revolution, and donated some troops. But when was the last time any Euro-troopers were here - or anywhere else on the globe because we needed them?

I never said we were the new Rome. We are not imperialist like them, or the british, or the Spanish, or the French, or the Portuguese - or even the Germans of the 20th century.

We have no desire to rule the world. Although we are, and have been, the world’s baby sitter for some time now - that is because of the weakness of Europe not the imperialistic desires of the U.S.

The world’s currencies are pegged to the U.S. dollar because we are the model of stability compared to the rest of the world.

Like I said - make all the jokes you want. Dream up the wittiest retorts you can. The fact remains - much to your chagrin - that the U.S. is the standard by which all nations are measured.

Let me rephrase that in Zap’s vernacular: We are the Alpha Male. Europe is at best a bitchy little yippy beta male.

Until we are knocked off - nothing will change. You can look 50 years down the road with baited breath if you like, but the U.S. will still be at the front of the pack, while Europe continues to bitch and moan.

94

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…just to make a point: i’ve worked as a bouncer for quite a while, and found that it was sometimes better to let my opponent believe he got the better of me [without the use of violence] if that means the situation got defused, and i got what i wanted. When you allow ego to get in the way, things tend to blow up in your face…[/quote]

That’s a cute little story. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work when you are dealing with dictators. Surely, you, of all people, should understand the danger of appeasing dictators.

Turn your cheek on them and you will be destroyed (circa 1940).

[quote]…where do you draw the line? Would you resort to nuking Iran if necessary? Pre-emptive? Think about that for a moment, and then reassess your claim i bear a grudge. Please remember, i don’t rely on my country, or it’s achievements, for a sense of self-esteem…
[/quote]

If I were you, I surely wouldn’t base my self-esteem on my country.

Either way, it must be nice to sit on the sidelines and look down your nose at the players.

Someday, you may be in the middle of the shitstorm.

You do realize that this is a global struggle between the forces of repression and hate versus the Democracies?

holland may become an attractive target BECAUSE it is so inconsequential. Imagine having a ready made soft target for the terrorists to make one of their “statements.”

Give it some thought.

As far as iran goes, we are pushing the europeans way out front on this one. Remember how America “defied the international community” in 2003?

How is the self-same “international community” doing, circa 2006?

Anyone think the europeans have the stomach to stare down iran?

JeffR

95

[quote]rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:

It’s more like 100 years. 90 for sure.

But in over 200 years we have not needed any help. I doubt we’ll be looking for it from Europe.

China is China because of the American dollar.

The mid-east will never fight a war inside our borders - there is no place for them to cowar here.

I don’t think we are Rome. We surpassed them in wealth and power long ago. The U.S. the gold standard now. Make excuses and shitty comebacks all you want. The truth is the truth. Even you know that - inspite of your wishing otherwise.

That’s why you waste your time here on an american board.

The US never needed help in the last 200 years? I must get me one of them American history books…

You are not the new Rome. Not even close. Not even the British Empire. They ruled the world and the US is far away from doing that.

Athens, maybe…

Plus, I am too lazy to learn Chinese.

And I am not a womens gymnast or swimmer.

Name a time since the war of 1812 that we needed Euro troops to help us in any war. I doubt you will find any. France bank rolled the revolution, and donated some troops. But when was the last time any Euro-troopers were here - or anywhere else on the globe because we needed them?

I never said we were the new Rome. We are not imperialist like them, or the british, or the Spanish, or the French, or the Portuguese - or even the Germans of the 20th century.

We have no desire to rule the world. Although we are, and have been, the world’s baby sitter for some time now - that is because of the weakness of Europe not the imperialistic desires of the U.S.

The world’s currencies are pegged to the U.S. dollar because we are the model of stability compared to the rest of the world.

Like I said - make all the jokes you want. Dream up the wittiest retorts you can. The fact remains - much to your chagrin - that the U.S. is the standard by which all nations are measured.

Let me rephrase that in Zap’s vernacular: We are the Alpha Male. Europe is at best a bitchy little yippy beta male.

Until we are knocked off - nothing will change. You can look 50 years down the road with baited breath if you like, but the U.S. will still be at the front of the pack, while Europe continues to bitch and moan.[/quote]

I think we all,European and American alike,ignore the Chinese at our own peril.To not recognise them as a superpower,even though they are a very insular one,is foolish.
I don’t think that there is any armed force in the world capable of defeating them in a conventional capacity,just through sheer weight of numbers.And they are always learning more about us than we are about them,with a much longer term view of events.
We should be doing the same…because resources are scarce and will dwindle,and the west may not find a chair when the music stops.

96

[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I think that “…one nation, under God…” was added to the pledge in the 50’s.

It was, in order to seperate us from the supposed “godless” communists.

Why does an empire which actively suppressed and derided religion –
using classrooms, secret police, and gulags – get quote marks around “godless”? [/quote]

Because as always, Congress had nothing more to worry about than PR.

Kind of like calling them, “Freedom Fries”. Gimme a break.

97

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Most of the world feels towards us like Wreckless does — no matter what we do, we’re evil. The problem is that America is the first country created by reason and not by chance or a club.

We especially remind the rest of the world of what THEY COULD BE, if they had balls and brains. Sure, we’re not perfect, but who is? We are the most moral and most noble country on earth and this will forever be a reproach against the immoral, the slothful, and the just plain evil in the rest of the world.

God bless (and has blessed!) the United States of America, God’s strong right hand here on earth!![/quote]

lol!

98

for anyone who can’t be arsed to read the previous 90-odd posts, allow me to summarise:

Token American a); “you know, we are like the BEST country on earth. No other country has our freedoms, and that’s why they hate us”

Token European: “actually our country is just as free, cheers”

Token American a): “yeah well our army could beat yo ass”

Token American b): “actually, although we have it pretty good there are some shitty things here too, pretty much like every other western country”.

Token American a): “well maybe we ought to beat your ass too you godless commie fag. Why do you hate America?”

p.s. revelling in the miltary might of your country is fine if you actually serve in the forces or take an active role in deciding their strategies. If however, you are a 160lb no-mark, (but who’s gonna get hyooooge following CT’s latest programme next summer when you finish school) all this chest-beating is gay. Uber gay. Gay as the hills.

99

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

I think we all,European and American alike,ignore the Chinese at our own peril.To not recognise them as a superpower,even though they are a very insular one,is foolish.
I don’t think that there is any armed force in the world capable of defeating them in a conventional capacity,just through sheer weight of numbers.And they are always learning more about us than we are about them,with a much longer term view of events.
We should be doing the same…because resources are scarce and will dwindle,and the west may not find a chair when the music stops.[/quote]

They’re preparing for war with us you know. They have already made up their minds to invade Taiwan and they know the U.S. will try to stop them so they’re quickly building up their military. And they’re specifically focusing on weapons like GPS jammers or EMPs to knock out satelites because they think that’s our weakness. Scary shit.

100

[quote]juninho wrote:
for anyone who can’t be arsed to read the previous 90-odd posts, allow me to summarise:

Token American a); “you know, we are like the BEST country on earth. No other country has our freedoms, and that’s why they hate us”

Token European: “actually our country is just as free, cheers”

Token American a): “yeah well our army could beat yo ass”

Token American b): “actually, although we have it pretty good there are some shitty things here too, pretty much like every other western country”.

Token American a): “well maybe we ought to beat your ass too you godless commie fag. Why do you hate America?”

p.s. revelling in the miltary might of your country is fine if you actually serve in the forces or take an active role in deciding their strategies. If however, you are a 160lb no-mark, (but who’s gonna get hyooooge following CT’s latest programme next summer when you finish school) all this chest-beating is gay. Uber gay. Gay as the hills. [/quote]

jun, I noticed that you didn’t include the token european fanning the flames by making ignorant, offensive, ungrateful remarks guaranteed to make any patriotic American angry.

Oh, like comparing the United States to nazi’s or ignoring the American blood and treasure spilled in his country within living memory.

If you are going to be anything more than the Anti-American dink of the week, you might try to be a little more balanced.

Good luck,

JeffR