Pervasive Anti-Americanism

[iscariot]

First up, why on earth would I be pissed off? You answered my post, politely and with, from your perspective, valid arguments - there’s nothing even slightly offensive in that…

[quote]holifila wrote:
iscariot wrote:

For example, from a personal perspective, I can’t understand how a country so rich and powerful has turned New Orleans into such a complete cluster fuck and yet is spending all it’s time and energy giving everyone else bollocks about how they’re doing things in their country.

1. The clusterfuck in N.O. has very little to do with the Federal Govt., this is a long and complicated discussion that should (and probably has) been dealt with in other posts.
   [/quote]

Maybe so, (per Fed. Gov.) but it is about efficient allocation of resources to those most in need. Certainly, I remember, on the news, his Dubyaship calling N’orleans a national disaster blah etc; the point is though (from my perspective, and if I was in power) that if I had to choose between fucking up another country adn fixing up a gawd-awful mess in my own I know where my priorities would (and should) lie.

2. Really, who are we telling what to do? Iraq and Iran (thats going real well) sure, but who else. Last I checked the U.S. wasn’t telling any European country how to run thier country. Who exactly are you talking about?

Ignoring that idiot in North Korea for the moment [/grin]

In Europe, lessee, Russia for one - particularly revolving around Russia’s ongoing ‘issues’ with it’s former states - now making a break for it…

To clarify, oft times, what I would class as intervention is more along the lines of the USA getting on its high horse about democracy et al… ad infinitum and telling governments how they should be acting. NOw, fair enough, freedom to kibbitz etc, but there is a limit…

We are telling one govt. how to run their country, Iraq. Do you fault us for the belief that democracy would be better than yet another religious state?

Actually, yes. Looking at it dispassionately, how another country chooses to run its affairs is no-ones business but that countries.

A very poor analogy would involve the fundamentalist nutbag over the back fence leaning over said fence and telling you that his way is better than yours, eventually you’re gonna either try and ignore them completely (which, becasue the US is so damn powerful, isn’t possible) or do something stupid to get rid of the annoying bastards…sometimes I think the US can’t take a hint heh.

Let’s look at Iran for a sec, and their nuclear power thing. Are they developing weapons [probably], however, have they broken ANY internaitonal laws in their desire to enrich uranium etc. NO. Thus, strictly speaking, no one, least of all the US (who has both weapons and a shitload of enriched uranium) has any legal or moral imperative to tell the Iransians what they should or should not be doing.

(BTW: Do I trust the Iranis? Not a bit - But President Ahmendalphabet is damn good entertainment. It’s also not the point.)

When you say active role, do you mean we should invade them?

Ha!! you’d ahve to be insane to invade Israel, they’d nuke you… No, what I would suggest is that where the US can and does have strong influence they should be acting to exert pressure for people to act reasonably instead of inflaming things. This is not to suggest that Israel is solely at fault, but I do feel the US could get the lunatic fringe in said country to pull their collective ehads out fo their butts. (Of course, there’s always gonna be fuckwits on both sides…sigh

[quote]
Other than the steel tariffs, what are you refering to? [/quote]

Grain, farm produce…

I’m not trying to piss you off here, but I just believe that much anti-american sentiment comes from misinformation or misunderstanding of the US itself.

That, however, should go both ways - the US should try adn understand other countries positions instead of trying to exert its ideology from a position of economic/ miltary strength etc

[quote]
If I am wrong or misguided in my responses, feel free to correct.[/quote]

It’s not about right or wrong…all opinions are valid.

[Headhunter]

[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Why? All the evidence supports everything I said. If you can refute a single statement of mine, I shall hear it gladly.

Without this country, the world would be a jungle of fighting tribes, chaos ruling. I’d rather have a USA hegemony any day.

…that’s cultural myopia in a nutshell. To alot of people outside of the US, it’s the constant meddling by the USA in affairs that did not concern them [outside of financial gains] that results in chaos and mayhem. I don’t think you’d be so quick to root for a USA hegemony if you were at the receiving end of it’s perceived righteousness, but thenagain, the ability to empathize with other views than your own isn’t your strong suit, is it?

We emphasized strongly enough with you fucking dickheads to remove the Nazi jackboot from your head (at the costs of billions of dollars and thousands of lives).

Maybe we shouldn’t have meddled?

After all, there’s no real reason apart from “perceived righteousness” that we needed do anything about Hitler. We could have sat back, fought off the Japanese, watched the Nazis and Communists fight it out, and then made a separate peace with the victor.

And then we spent the next fifty fucking years manning the wall against the communists, spending tens of trillions of dollars and immeasurable human talent keeping you free. Again, we could have saved all that money and just done a deal with the Soviets.

Maybe we shouldn’t have meddled?

Now it’s fashionable for you cowards to sit there and HATE us. Not just disagree with our policies, but accuse us of everything from being war criminals to imperialists, to stupid and myopic. Raw HATE. What are we supposed to think?

It would be one thing if we suddenly came in on the bones of a broken Europe and started bullying you around. That’s not what happened. We have spent GENERATIONS defending Western Europe when some Americans thought we ought to spend that money on ourselves. In return, we didn’t ask to run your countries, to write your laws, to enslave your people, we didn’t ask that you speak English, that you buy our goods, that you join our clubs, that you watch our television, that you submit to our death camps… (a.k.a. we are not European)

In return, what did we get? Cocksuckers like you who come on and smugly say that the USA is meddlesome, infer that we don’t care about anyone else, when the last century proves to any Dutchman with half an ounce of sense or perspective how monumentally, immediately wrong that is. WE CARED ENOUGH ABOUT YOU TO KEEP YOU FREE! I see, that ended in the 1990’s. That doesn’t count anymore?

That really pisses some Americans off. What the fuck were we spending all that on? Would we have done that worse of trade with Soviet Holland?

So I have to ask, what do you guys see the last 60 years as in your history classes? 60 years of American domination of the Netherlands? Given Dutch history, in say – Africa – how can you possibly reach that conclusion? What is your standard?

I resent Western European anti-Americanism extremely. Sometimes it makes me wish that my family and friends who spent combined dozens of years, and all the millions of dollars of tax money we as a family spent freeing and defending you, that we could have it all back.
[/quote]

You write some damn fine posts…and this one of your bests. As an American, I don’t mind helping others and a HELL of a lot of good men paid the ultimate price to help. But I just purely hate fucking ingratitude. That’s one reason why I say the USA is the most moral country on earth — other countries don’t morally reciprocate. We do all of the above and then they whine that we’re bullies and terrorists.

Should’ve let Hitler and Stalin and Breznev, Tojo and Hirohito and Mao have the whole damn thing. 'Slaughter ‘em all boys, the USA will just stand aside.’

AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!

[Heliotrope]

It’s a cliche that love and hate are seperated by the smallest of margins. I think anyone who truly loves this country, or any other for that matter, will study it’s history within the context of world history and find great triumphs to rejoice in and also failures and crimes that can only be loathed.

Of course we are all limited in our knowledge and therefore our opinions and biases as to what is to be cherished and what is to be despised will also be limited.

The fact that we all have the right to voice these opinions in a search for clarity is at the core of what I love about this country and truly one of its greatest strengths.

I have to believe that the U.S. will rise to the challenge and use its position as the dominate power of the current age to lead us towards whatever new world will emerge after the fossil fuel civilization is an era in the history books.

Unfortunately I can’t be naive and discount the haters entirely. There is a real and distinct possibility that the power struggles within our nation and between our nation and the world could lead to devastation and horror far beyond any recorded in human history.

The stakes are high and we all can agree that the U.S. has a profound ability to direct the course of world events. I hope for all our sakes that the haters are proven wrong but the fact that their voice is heard is part of what it will take to make it so.

[kaaleppi]

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Without this country, the world would be a jungle of fighting tribes, chaos ruling. I’d rather have a USA hegemony any day.

[/quote]

I would modify that a bit. Since it looks like we can’t get rid of hegemonies, USA is the best option around. That doesn’t automatically make it a good thing, just the best option available. What do you think Germany was, if not a hegemony?

Hegemony in Wikipedia:

Hegemony (pronounced hɪ’gem.ə.ni or hə’dʒɛ.mə.ni) (greek:ηγεμονία) is the dominance of one group over other groups, with or without the threat of force, to the extent that, for instance, the dominant party can dictate the terms of trade to its advantage; more broadly, cultural perspectives become skewed to favor the dominant group. Hegemony controls the ways that ideas become “naturalized” in a process that informs notions of common sense.

Throughout history, cultural and political power in any arena has rarely achieved a perfect balance, but hegemony results in the empowerment of certain cultural beliefs, values, and practices to the submersion and partial exclusion of others. Hegemony affects the perspective of mainstream history, as history is written by the victors for a sympathetic readership. The official history of Christianity, marginalizing its defined “heresies”, provides a richly-exampled arena of cultural hegemony.

[Hack_Wilson]

When I was younger, the amount of hatred aimed at Jews always surprised me. I did some reading and discovered that the hatred was historical. I didn’t realize then that religion and cultural differences causes so much division and downright hatred among people.

Of course I was educated about the Holocaust and the conditions that existed in Germany (and thruoghout Europe and the world, really) that enabled it.

I read and listened to (I speak German) Hitler’s speeches (you really get a feel for his ability as a speaker when you understand the words and hear them and the crowd’s response). The words have always seemed reprehensible to me. I used to listen almost not believing that such a person could ever be taken seriously.

Then the Holocaust. Then the world’s self-flagellation over ‘allowing’ it to happen. We were all racists. Bigots. Then Israel. A homeland for Jews. Alas, we could not grant them this home and allow them to be destroyed. So the United States and some in Europe protected them. Armed them. If this did NOT happen, another Holocaust would surely follow. And because they are armed, BECAUSE Israel can protect itself militarily, we have seen the rise of terrorism. So we see Jews being killed a few at a time. A nightclub here. A shopping mall there.

Much more acceptable than mass-extermination, right?

But what do we see now? We see a return of the kind of rhetoric that came out of Germany in the 1920’s and 30’s. We hear it from Muslims. We hear it from ‘secular’ states like Saddam Huessein’s Iraq. We see it rising again in Germany. We hear it from the American left in the United States. Whispers now. Should we be arming Isarel? Are we enabling them? Should we stop?

The Palestinians do not want a homeland. That’s been on the table. They don’t want a reduction in Israelli lands. On the table. They want the total anhiliation of Israel and it’s people. That’s all they have ever wanted.

I lived in Saudi Arabia for two years. I was granted entrance to the country because I had a skill that was useful to them. I worked for a Saudi Prince, helping to establish and maintain his communications network. I was housed in a complex with other Americans. We were all Christians or nothing at all. Religion was not mentioned. No bibles were permitted. No icons. Leave it at home. There were no Jews. Period. Walk down the street in Makkah or Madinah or Riyadh. You don’t have to speak much Arabic to understand. There is an inherent hatred of Jews. And they don’t just hate them. They want to kill them.

I know this doesn’t sit well. I know some will scream about it. Call me a liar. I lived there. So did my many friends of mine. So did many Americans and Europeans, pilots and engineers, who were brought in to work and get paid very well. But we all know that this culture was based on greed, dishonesty and a hatred of Jews.

So THAT is why - I think - we protect Israel.

Not that anyone asked.

[orion]

[quote]semper_fi wrote:
AlbertaBeef wrote:

Has American done ANYTHING to fix the damage they’ve done to those countries? Have they supplied money and weapons for democratic revolutionaries to take back their country from the same fascists America installed?

Correct me if I’m wrong, because if they have, I haven’t heard about it.

Beef

Well did you know that Saddam was once supported by the U.S. and we sold him weapons and everything but now we overthrew him. So there’s an example.[/quote]

OMG that would mean that the US acted the same way it acted when it fought WWII, rebuild Europe and founded and led the NATO, it acted out of self interest!

[orion]

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
ChuckyT wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Why? All the evidence supports everything I said. If you can refute a single statement of mine, I shall hear it gladly.

Without this country, the world would be a jungle of fighting tribes, chaos ruling. I’d rather have a USA hegemony any day.

…that’s cultural myopia in a nutshell. To alot of people outside of the US, it’s the constant meddling by the USA in affairs that did not concern them [outside of financial gains] that results in chaos and mayhem. I don’t think you’d be so quick to root for a USA hegemony if you were at the receiving end of it’s perceived righteousness, but thenagain, the ability to empathize with other views than your own isn’t your strong suit, is it?

We emphasized strongly enough with you fucking dickheads to remove the Nazi jackboot from your head (at the costs of billions of dollars and thousands of lives).

Maybe we shouldn’t have meddled?

After all, there’s no real reason apart from “perceived righteousness” that we needed do anything about Hitler. We could have sat back, fought off the Japanese, watched the Nazis and Communists fight it out, and then made a separate peace with the victor.

And then we spent the next fifty fucking years manning the wall against the communists, spending tens of trillions of dollars and immeasurable human talent keeping you free. Again, we could have saved all that money and just done a deal with the Soviets.

Maybe we shouldn’t have meddled?

Now it’s fashionable for you cowards to sit there and HATE us. Not just disagree with our policies, but accuse us of everything from being war criminals to imperialists, to stupid and myopic. Raw HATE. What are we supposed to think?

It would be one thing if we suddenly came in on the bones of a broken Europe and started bullying you around. That’s not what happened. We have spent GENERATIONS defending Western Europe when some Americans thought we ought to spend that money on ourselves. In return, we didn’t ask to run your countries, to write your laws, to enslave your people, we didn’t ask that you speak English, that you buy our goods, that you join our clubs, that you watch our television, that you submit to our death camps… (a.k.a. we are not European)

In return, what did we get? Cocksuckers like you who come on and smugly say that the USA is meddlesome, infer that we don’t care about anyone else, when the last century proves to any Dutchman with half an ounce of sense or perspective how monumentally, immediately wrong that is. WE CARED ENOUGH ABOUT YOU TO KEEP YOU FREE! I see, that ended in the 1990’s. That doesn’t count anymore?

That really pisses some Americans off. What the fuck were we spending all that on? Would we have done that worse of trade with Soviet Holland?

So I have to ask, what do you guys see the last 60 years as in your history classes? 60 years of American domination of the Netherlands? Given Dutch history, in say – Africa – how can you possibly reach that conclusion? What is your standard?

I resent Western European anti-Americanism extremely. Sometimes it makes me wish that my family and friends who spent combined dozens of years, and all the millions of dollars of tax money we as a family spent freeing and defending you, that we could have it all back.

You write some damn fine posts…and this one of your bests. As an American, I don’t mind helping others and a HELL of a lot of good men paid the ultimate price to help. But I just purely hate fucking ingratitude. That’s one reason why I say the USA is the most moral country on earth — other countries don’t morally reciprocate. We do all of the above and then they whine that we’re bullies and terrorists.

Should’ve let Hitler and Stalin and Breznev, Tojo and Hirohito and Mao have the whole damn thing. 'Slaughter ‘em all boys, the USA will just stand aside.’

AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!

[/quote]

The US did what it did out of self interest, back then when liberal ideas like “long term strategies” and therefore "military and economic alliances " made sense to American political leaders you whining pussies.

If any of you truly believe the US of today would be the same after 50 years of confrontation with the Sowjet Union and/or Grand Germany formerly known as Europe, you are insane.

[rainjack]

[quote]orion wrote:
OMG that would mean that the US acted the same way it acted when it fought WWII, rebuild Europe and founded and led the NATO, it acted out of self interest!

[/quote]

With huge huge benefits going to little places like Austria. Youguys don’t need a real army because of our presence. That gives you more money to throw at socialistic programs.

If you guys actually had to pay for your safety, you’d have a lot less money for cradle to grave gov’t care.

[orion]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
OMG that would mean that the US acted the same way it acted when it fought WWII, rebuild Europe and founded and led the NATO, it acted out of self interest!

With huge huge benefits going to little places like Austria. Youguys don’t need a real army because of our presence. That gives you more money to throw at socialistic programs.

If you guys actually had to pay for your safety, you’d have a lot less money for cradle to grave gov’t care. [/quote]

That is absolutely, 100% correct!

[hedo]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
OMG that would mean that the US acted the same way it acted when it fought WWII, rebuild Europe and founded and led the NATO, it acted out of self interest!

With huge huge benefits going to little places like Austria. Youguys don’t need a real army because of our presence. That gives you more money to throw at socialistic programs.

If you guys actually had to pay for your safety, you’d have a lot less money for cradle to grave gov’t care. [/quote]

Perhaps the Western Europeans are anti-American these days because they realize the US will not save them again in the future.

[orion]

[quote]hedo wrote:
rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
OMG that would mean that the US acted the same way it acted when it fought WWII, rebuild Europe and founded and led the NATO, it acted out of self interest!

With huge huge benefits going to little places like Austria. Youguys don’t need a real army because of our presence. That gives you more money to throw at socialistic programs.

If you guys actually had to pay for your safety, you’d have a lot less money for cradle to grave gov’t care.

Perhaps the Western Europeans are anti-American these days because they realize the US will not save them again in the future.

[/quote]

Perhaps Americans are anti-Western European because they realize we might safe them in the future?

[hedo]

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
OMG that would mean that the US acted the same way it acted when it fought WWII, rebuild Europe and founded and led the NATO, it acted out of self interest!

With huge huge benefits going to little places like Austria. Youguys don’t need a real army because of our presence. That gives you more money to throw at socialistic programs.

If you guys actually had to pay for your safety, you’d have a lot less money for cradle to grave gov’t care.

Perhaps the Western Europeans are anti-American these days because they realize the US will not save them again in the future.

Perhaps Americans are anti-Western European because they realize we might safe them in the future?[/quote]

Your statement isn’t very clear…what are you trying to say?

[rainjack]

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
OMG that would mean that the US acted the same way it acted when it fought WWII, rebuild Europe and founded and led the NATO, it acted out of self interest!

With huge huge benefits going to little places like Austria. Youguys don’t need a real army because of our presence. That gives you more money to throw at socialistic programs.

If you guys actually had to pay for your safety, you’d have a lot less money for cradle to grave gov’t care.

Perhaps the Western Europeans are anti-American these days because they realize the US will not save them again in the future.

Perhaps Americans are anti-Western European because they realize we might safe them in the future?[/quote]

What’s Austria going to do? Not a hell of a lot.

France? If we need help surrendering, they’ll be the first ones we call.

Germany? Maybe - but they may want to watch us lose one.

Western Europe is delusional if they think we will need their help. We haven’t had them help us at all since the 18th century.

[ephrem]

[quote]hedo wrote:

Perhaps the Western Europeans are anti-American these days because they realize the US will not save them again in the future.

[/quote]

…the Hague might even come under attack from the USA when the International Court dares to indict US military for war crimes…

…a short history lesson: after the invasion of Normandy, the americans wanted to get to Berlin as fast as possible to prevent the Russians from taking over completely. They left the liberation of the low countries in the able hands of Canadians, Polish, British and a few Australian and New Zealand troops. I have yet to see people from those countries demand respect and gratitude for that. Why is that, you think?

…i’m not anti-american pers?, but anti-totalitarian. If that, for some of you, amounts to the same thing, perhaps it’s wise to consider that any totalitarian regime at one time collapses under it’s own weight. If you feel you don’t have to listen to reason, you’ll succumb to ignorance…

[orion]

[quote]hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
OMG that would mean that the US acted the same way it acted when it fought WWII, rebuild Europe and founded and led the NATO, it acted out of self interest!

With huge huge benefits going to little places like Austria. Youguys don’t need a real army because of our presence. That gives you more money to throw at socialistic programs.

If you guys actually had to pay for your safety, you’d have a lot less money for cradle to grave gov’t care.

Perhaps the Western Europeans are anti-American these days because they realize the US will not save them again in the future.

Perhaps Americans are anti-Western European because they realize we might safe them in the future?

Your statement isn’t very clear…what are you trying to say?

[/quote]

In the process of trying to make a federation of 25 countries and God knows
how many languages we have developed mad skills like diplomacy, patience and not-having-bombed every country on the face of this planet.

Plus, we are flexible. If people don?t like the French, we send the Germans. They don`t like the Germans we send Danes or someone Skandinavian.

People that think that the US are an abomination that is to be wiped from the face of the earth think that Austrians are cute!

Imagine the possibilities if we negotiated and you flexed your muscles in the background.

Happens and happened all the time anyway, but some people on this board don`t seem to get that.

[orion]

[quote]rainjack wrote:

What’s Austria going to do? Not a hell of a lot.

France? If we need help surrendering, they’ll be the first ones we call.

Germany? Maybe - but they may want to watch us lose one.

Western Europe is delusional if they think we will need their help. We haven’t had them help us at all since the 18th century.

[/quote]

The 18th century was yesterday and the 23th is right around the corner.

We get that.

The Arabs get that.

The Chinese never even thought it could be otherwise.

America is on top for 50 years know and allready thinks it`s the new Rome?

Who knows who will need what from whom in 20 years?

[hedo]

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
OMG that would mean that the US acted the same way it acted when it fought WWII, rebuild Europe and founded and led the NATO, it acted out of self interest!

With huge huge benefits going to little places like Austria. Youguys don’t need a real army because of our presence. That gives you more money to throw at socialistic programs.

If you guys actually had to pay for your safety, you’d have a lot less money for cradle to grave gov’t care.

Perhaps the Western Europeans are anti-American these days because they realize the US will not save them again in the future.

Perhaps Americans are anti-Western European because they realize we might safe them in the future?

Your statement isn’t very clear…what are you trying to say?

In the process of trying to make a federation of 25 countries and God knows
how many languages we have developed mad skills like diplomacy, patience and not-having-bombed every country on the face of this planet.

Plus, we are flexible. If people don?t like the French, we send the Germans. They don`t like the Germans we send Danes or someone Skandinavian.

People that think that the US are an abomination that is to be wiped from the face of the earth think that Austrians are cute!

Imagine the possibilities if we negotiated and you flexed your muscles in the background.

Happens and happened all the time anyway, but some people on this board don`t seem to get that.[/quote]

Funny stuff I admit.

The point being I don’t think the many in the US view the Western Europeans as relaible allies any longer. Britian excepted.

I don’t believe we would “flex our muscles” while the Europeans practice anything based on past history.

[rainjack]

[quote]orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:

What’s Austria going to do? Not a hell of a lot.

France? If we need help surrendering, they’ll be the first ones we call.

Germany? Maybe - but they may want to watch us lose one.

Western Europe is delusional if they think we will need their help. We haven’t had them help us at all since the 18th century.

The 18th century was yesterday and the 23th is right around the corner.

We get that.

The Arabs get that.

The Chinese never even thought it could be otherwise.

America is on top for 50 years know and allready thinks it`s the new Rome?

Who knows who will need what from whom in 20 years?[/quote]

It’s more like 100 years. 90 for sure.

But in over 200 years we have not needed any help. I doubt we’ll be looking for it from Europe.

China is China because of the American dollar.

The mid-east will never fight a war inside our borders - there is no place for them to cowar here.

I don’t think we are Rome. We surpassed them in wealth and power long ago. The U.S. the gold standard now. Make excuses and shitty comebacks all you want. The truth is the truth. Even you know that - inspite of your wishing otherwise.

That’s why you waste your time here on an american board.

[hedo]

[quote]ephrem wrote:
hedo wrote:

Perhaps the Western Europeans are anti-American these days because they realize the US will not save them again in the future.

…the Hague might even come under attack from the USA when the International Court dares to indict US military for war crimes…

…a short history lesson: after the invasion of Normandy, the americans wanted to get to Berlin as fast as possible to prevent the Russians from taking over completely. They left the liberation of the low countries in the able hands of Canadians, Polish, British and a few Australian and New Zealand troops. I have yet to see people from those countries demand respect and gratitude for that. Why is that, you think?

…i’m not anti-american pers?, but anti-totalitarian. If that, for some of you, amounts to the same thing, perhaps it’s wise to consider that any totalitarian regime at one time collapses under it’s own weight. If you feel you don’t have to listen to reason, you’ll succumb to ignorance…

[/quote]

Depends what you consider reason. Many in the US view the European outlook on world issues to be naive. For example the EU dealings with Iran. They’ve played the EU like a fiddle but nobody seems to care or realize it.

The US is only considered totalitarian by those with a grudge to bear both in the US and abroad.

The Hague…interesting. The Europeans certainly have a lot of experience with war crimes I’ll give you that.

[ephrem]

[quote]hedo wrote:

Depends what you consider reason. Many in the US view the European outlook on world issues to be naive. For example the EU dealings with Iran. They’ve played the EU like a fiddle but nobody seems to care or realize it.

The US is only considered totalitarian by those with a grudge to bear both in the US and abroad.

The Hague…interesting. The Europeans certainly have a lot of experience with war crimes I’ll give you that.

[/quote]

…just to make a point: i’ve worked as a bouncer for quite a while, and found that it was sometimes better to let my opponent believe he got the better of me [without the use of violence] if that means the situation got defused, and i got what i wanted. When you allow ego to get in the way, things tend to blow up in your face…

…where do you draw the line? Would you resort to nuking Iran if necessary? Pre-emptive? Think about that for a moment, and then reassess your claim i bear a grudge. Please remember, i don’t rely on my country, or it’s achievements, for a sense of self-esteem…