Peace on Earth, Well not Today.

Off Topic
42

I must either be really immature or really wise. Ok, I realize I’m without a doubt immature, but I still don’t understand why violence is by some always seen as a bad thing. A kid smears shit on the walls, he gets a slap or whatever.

Some guy is being a bitch to you (like in that thread with the american in sweden with neighbours stereo), you punch him in the stomach. The thing I see as negative is the excessive violence that made us put up laws against violence. Like pulling a knife on someone over a pen. I belive violence is an effective punishment that doesn’t do much damage after the initial shock has started.

And don’t you think genetics might have something to do with stupid parents having stupid kids? A stupid kid would make a stupid parent frustrated thus making him BEAT the child. And don’t give me the bullshit kids don’t understand what they’ll get punished for.

The only time I learned something as a kid is when it had physical consequenses. Kids are like dogs. If you pinch your dog down on the floor when it tries to take your food it’ll eventually stop doing it.

Seriously, if some guy half your size comes up to you and starts saying things that really make you pissed, I don’t know what’d make you pissed, but whatever. What would be best to do, start shouting like a little girl making a whole lot of noise and embarrasing yourself, or hitting him in the stomach?

He’s half your size, shouldn’t mouth off to you. This is obviously not about kids, just wanna know how you view violence.

By the way, is spanking a kid violence or just discipline? I feel my definition of violence might be a bit fuzzy.

45

[quote]pushharder wrote:
ouroboro_s wrote:
…Since I don’t have a dick to lay on the table, I decline to partake…

Oh good grief, you’ve got a dildo laying around somewhere that would suffice…

;-)[/quote]

Maybe, but that would only make people feel bad about themselves.

I prefer to hit them to make them feel bad :slight_smile:

46

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Shaved wrote:

…It’s clear that you want to attack the credibility of the person arguing than to attack the credibility of the argument…

The credibility of the person arguing has a direct impact on the credibility of his argument, grasshopper.
[/quote]

In certain situations I would completely agree with you.

Raising a kid to adulthood means exactly dick. There are LOADS of shitty parents out there, and you think this is some sort of special qualification to argue about Corporal Punishment on the internet?

I’ve seen the effects of violence/corporal punishment on friends/family. You don’t have to raise children to see this.

47

[quote]pushharder wrote:
streamline wrote:
Everyone bravely remembers the punishments they recieved growing up…

Here’s a little news for you. You don’t remember the ones you got between 1 and 6 or even later. Your memory has zero correlation of the two (cause & effect). It is unlikely that you ever realized why you were being punished. Therefore there is no memory of punishment.

You’re dead wrong. When you are age 1 - 6, Streamline my dear man, you are not a fucking head of cabbage.

You may not remember the spankings when you’re 45 or 50 but you damn sure remember them at the time they were administered.

C’mon buddy, I know you’re smarter than what you are displaying here.[/quote]

I don’t think we are connecting on this one. Let me rephrase it.

I remember being punished when I was under six. Try as I may I can never remember why. I remember the why from my latter years.

It is my believe that corporeal punishment is redundant until the age of understanding. If a person so chooses to use such means, using it when the child understands why you’re doing it.

If a childs brain has not developed to the point of understanding a given situation physical punishment is useless. You must remember those good old days when you could entertain your child by hiding things under a piece of paper. Their brain told them it was gone, not hiding under the paper.

I am a firm believer that the strongest bonding years are between infancy and six. These are the years that make all the other years so very easy. A solid bond with a child is like a one way ticket to total bliss.

If you totally screw it during those years, you get a one way ticket to hell! And that’s a fact!

48

[quote]Shaved wrote:
Raising a kid to adulthood means exactly dick. There are LOADS of shitty parents out there, and you think this is some sort of special qualification to argue about Corporal Punishment on the internet?

I’ve seen the effects of violence/corporal punishment on friends/family. You don’t have to raise children to see this.

[/quote]

You certainly don’t have to raise them to see certain effects. I think you two are talking at cross purposes in your definitions.

However, you do actually have to raise children to adulthood to truly understand what it means to raise them to adulthood. Like many life experiences it cannot be truly understood intellectually.

It must be lived to be understood. You may think you do, but you don’t. I had all sorts of preconceived notions of how I would parent until I was a parent and it is suddenly a role that is inescapable. It isn’t something you can leave and go home from.

When you are a parent, you may do exactly as you’ve outlined in your theories and it may work well for you. However, until you are living and breathing that life, you really can’t say definitively how you will respond.

49

[quote]streamline wrote:
Here’s a little news for you. You don’t remember the ones you got between 1 and 6 or even later. Your memory has zero correlation of the two (cause & effect). It is unlikely that you ever realized why you were being punished. Therefore there is no memory of punishment.

[/quote]

I will disagree with the part about memory. I remember quite a few incidents vividly. It could be that I have a very good memory though. I recall learning to swim and other things as far back as 1.5 to 2 yrs. old.

Memory formation and retrieval is a strange thing.

50

[quote]ouroboro_s wrote:
Shaved wrote:
Raising a kid to adulthood means exactly dick. There are LOADS of shitty parents out there, and you think this is some sort of special qualification to argue about Corporal Punishment on the internet?

I’ve seen the effects of violence/corporal punishment on friends/family. You don’t have to raise children to see this.

You certainly don’t have to raise them to see certain effects. I think you two are talking at cross purposes in your definitions.

However, you do actually have to raise children to adulthood to truly understand what it means to raise them to adulthood. Like many life experiences it cannot be truly understood intellectually.

It must be lived to be understood. You may think you do, but you don’t. I had all sorts of preconceived notions of how I would parent until I was a parent and it is suddenly a role that is inescapable. It isn’t something you can leave and go home from.

When you are a parent, you may do exactly as you’ve outlined in your theories and it may work well for you. However, until you are living and breathing that life, you really can’t say definitively how you will respond.[/quote]

You may be right.

I understand that parenthood must be a very stressful, difficult thing that I could never fully understand until I myself become a parent. On the other hand, can you really say that each time you hit your child, there wasn’t another, less violent method you could have used that may have worked better?

I find it hard to believe that smacking your kid on the ass is the most logical/effective method to teach them a lesson. From your post, it sounds more likely that some parents simply break down over time and get tired of trying other methods. This doesn’t make it right.

In the end, you can’t escape the fact that you are essentially teaching them that violence is an appropriate response to bad behavior. I think this was the same message the OP gave, and I agree completely.

51

[quote]Shaved wrote:
ouroboro_s wrote:
Shaved wrote:
Raising a kid to adulthood means exactly dick. There are LOADS of shitty parents out there, and you think this is some sort of special qualification to argue about Corporal Punishment on the internet?

I’ve seen the effects of violence/corporal punishment on friends/family. You don’t have to raise children to see this.

You certainly don’t have to raise them to see certain effects. I think you two are talking at cross purposes in your definitions.

However, you do actually have to raise children to adulthood to truly understand what it means to raise them to adulthood. Like many life experiences it cannot be truly understood intellectually. It must be lived to be understood.

You may think you do, but you don’t. I had all sorts of preconceived notions of how I would parent until I was a parent and it is suddenly a role that is inescapable. It isn’t something you can leave and go home from.

When you are a parent, you may do exactly as you’ve outlined in your theories and it may work well for you. However, until you are living and breathing that life, you really can’t say definitively how you will respond.

You may be right.

I understand that parenthood must be a very stressful, difficult thing that I could never fully understand until I myself become a parent. On the other hand, can you really say that each time you hit your child, there wasn’t another, less violent method you could have used that may have worked better?

I find it hard to believe that smacking your kid on the ass is the most logical/effective method to teach them a lesson. From your post, it sounds more likely that some parents simply break down over time and got tired of trying other methods. This doesn’t make it right.

In the end, you can’t escape the fact that you are essentially teaching them that violence is an appropriate response to bad behavior. I think this was the same message the OP gave, and I agree completely.

[/quote]

I think that some parents do break down and lash out in anger. It is easy to do. Other responses are thought out and the decision for corporal punishment is decided to be the best course of action.

I don’t believe that other methods are always as effective. Sometimes they are, therefore they are the better choice. It is determined by the situation.

Sometimes physical punishment, in my opinion, is the best response to bad behaviour. This doesn’t just apply to children.

Your path and decisions, are of course, your own to take.

53

I would hope no parent is advocating the beating of a child, but please let’s not imbue children with the reasoning abilities of adults.

I do not have children

but even babysitting… seriously. have you tried to have a reasoning debate with a baby/child/tot? Won’t work.

I think you should explain why, give them lots of love, and assess the situation.

I do not have kids yet, but I would not say I would never spank my child. I will use time outs, all that, but… I know that I really have NOOOOOOO idea until I am in that situation.

54

The majority of the violence in this world has been brought forth by religious differences.

Peace on Earth can not and will not be achieved unless everyone universally accepts the same beliefs or learns to accept each other for who they are.

On the subject of parenting -

Parenting does have a significant impact in the way a person develops, but there are far too many factors that play a role in a persons development that it would be foolish to place significance on a sole factor (i.e: hitting your kid).

56

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Streamline, I think you’re a well intentioned guy but the road to hell…

…and you’re full of excrement from male bovine creatures if you think good, sound corporal punishment is a bad deal. Ye know not of what ye speak.[/quote]

I agree with Push 100%.

jpb

57

i dont think you should beat your kid, but aint nothing wrong with smacken em in the head.

thats how it is in the wild so cant be nothing wrong with it.

58

[quote]pushharder wrote:
streamline wrote:
pushharder wrote:
streamline wrote:
Everyone bravely remembers the punishments they recieved growing up…

Here’s a little news for you. You don’t remember the ones you got between 1 and 6 or even later. Your memory has zero correlation of the two (cause & effect). It is unlikely that you ever realized why you were being punished. Therefore there is no memory of punishment.

You’re dead wrong. When you are age 1 - 6, Streamline my dear man, you are not a fucking head of cabbage.

You may not remember the spankings when you’re 45 or 50 but you damn sure remember them at the time they were administered.

C’mon buddy, I know you’re smarter than what you are displaying here.

I don’t think we are connecting on this one. Let me rephrase it.

I remember being punished when I was under six. Try as I may I can never remember why. I remember the why from my latter years.

It is my believe that corporeal punishment is redundant until the age of understanding. If a person so chooses to use such means, using it when the child understands why you’re doing it.

If a childs brain has not developed to the point of understanding a given situation physical punishment is useless. You must remember those good old days when you could entertain your child by hiding things under a piece of paper. Their brain told them it was gone, not hiding under the paper.

I am a firm believer that the strongest bonding years are between infancy and six. These are the years that make all the other years so very easy. A solid bond with a child is like a one way ticket to total bliss.

If you totally screw it during those years, you get a one way ticket to hell! And that’s a fact!

I agree with everything you’ve written here. Our only disagreement beyond this would probably be when we each feel a child is capable of understanding.

And I would bet my life that a child is capable of understanding certain things about right and wrong when he is under six years of age. To say otherwise is to equate the kid with that proverbial head of cabbage.

For crying out loud, my kids were reading books at five years of age; you trying to tell me he/she didn’t understand what I meant when I said “No, you are NOT allowed to play in the street and if you do, you’ll get a spanking”?[/quote]

There are no absolutes as to when an individual will understand certain things. As there are no two individuals that come to these understandings in the same manner.

Children learn “No” very young, and it works. However their attention span isn’t great, so you have to say no a lot. Understanding “No” and understanding the reasons for the no are to very different things.

I told my child she shouldn’t play in the streets because she’ll get hit by a car. Worked for me.

I’ll bet well into your twenties you were still figuring out social situations. Those moments of clarity that came long after the embarrassments. At times you got it before your friends and got to laugh at them. Sometimes you got it later and suffered the ridicule of your peers.

Growing up is about learning. It’s not about how many beatings did it take to learn something. It’s about teaching your children to figure things out on their own. Teaching them to think about what they’re about to do. To learn from their mistakes, not be afraid of of them.

60

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Stream buddy, maybe we be a-talkin bout two different things but I doubt it based on your first post.

I am NOT talking about “beating”, crippling, harming a kid. I’m not talking about slapping a kid around in a drunken rage.

I am talking about getting after a kid physically when appropriate and in a spirit of love. Thing is, I don’t have to talk in the abstract. I don’t have to theorize or speculate. I’ve done it. I have the track record.

My kids, even when they were young, would heed my voice. No bullshit timeouts (sometimes maybe) and reasoning and cajoling and sappy pleadings and ugly scenes and temper tantrums, etc., etc. Why? Because I backed it up with the consequences of a stinging rear end.

I loved 'em and didn’t have to say “I’m sorry I hit you” and all that because I wasn’t sorry and they had it coming and I knew they knew that I loved them.

The four year old doesn’t need an explanation of why not to play in the street. The four year old just needs to know that Dad said “Don’t do it” and that’s all there is to it. Now a 14 year old is an altogether different animal and some reasoning and such (with promised consequences) is necessary but we’re not talking older kids here.[/quote]

I have to disagree with you. I raised my daughter without ever laying a hand on her. My reward is a relationship that is second to none. We talk about everything, and still at seventeen she seeks my advice own personal matters.