Quit it vroom. Just knock it off. Here I thought we were about to settle back into the swing of things, and you go and pop off something like this.
I hate to agree with you. But your first post was spot on.
I’m gonna go throw up now.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
There sees to be a growing trend of hating the whole concept of nations.
It is certainly pervasive in the crap the Dixie Chicks are spouting and I have noticed it in your posts as well.
[/quote]
NO! I am not fond of the concept of nationalism because it breeds contept for everything that falls outside that particular idea. The problem is that there is no one correct idea for it.
To say I hate this country is extreme. I dislike many of the values that seem to take precedence over what were the original founding ideas. Those being: Life; liberty; pursuit of happiness. The debate that goes with these ideas is part and parcel to any functioning democracy. It is natural to have disagreements about important ideas–it is also important to remain in dialog and keep a dialectic discussion at all times.
Instead we seem to have turned into a oligopolistic, corporate, fascist regime where the abbundance of money seems to be the biggest virtue that is celebrated. We have let the corps sell us out, push us out, and take away our voice. But we are too busy watching American Idol to really notice it I guess–after all if you vote on that show your voice is being heard.
[quote]vroom wrote:
I just want to step in and state clearly that I disagree with your stance Lifticus.
I am proud of my own country. I consider myself patriotic. However, I am as critical of my own government and their policies just as much as those issues I blather on about here.
However, that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t sacrifice my life to uphold the very similar ideals of freedom, democracy and the bill of rights enshrined in my own constitution.
[/quote]
Agreed–except the part about dying! However, one point that I am trying to make is no one seems to be making the distinction between “pride in one’s country” and supporting the government administration in power. I think we can all agree the two are not the same. This is the current mood that people seem to relate to patriotism–in the US.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Quit it vroom. Just knock it off. Here I thought we were about to settle back into the swing of things, and you go and pop off something like this.
I hate to agree with you. But your first post was spot on.
I’m gonna go throw up now. [/quote]
No kidding. Who hijacked vroom’s account?
Seriously, good post.
Regarding your whole Canadian thing, I have no problems with people from other nations. Canada is a great country full of great people. I have said it many times even when I have disagreed with some of their policies.
As one American said:
“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right”
It couldn’t be put better…
Patriotism to me is a belief in your country and the realization that sometimes your needs and wants must take a back seat to the needs of your community and country.
Nobody wants to die for their country but some must, in order to preserve it and the society we live in. That burden falls mainly on our soldiers but also on policeman and fireman and others who serve the community and country.
Not every soldier agrees with the war he is fighting but that’s not the point.
You don’t even have to like or agree with the elected leaders but somebody has to lead and somebody has to follow.
Picking and choosing what enemy you feel it is worth opposing is not a luxury the soldier/citizen or policeman can enjoy.
I think it’s patriotic to believe in your country and your fellow citizens and do what is necessary to preserve your society. It may not be perfect and all good but it is certainly not inherently bad.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I’m not sure what is shocking you. In a perfect world, it wouldn’t matter what country you come from. The same goes for gang wars started because you disrespected one gang’s street over another. The basic premise is the same. My personal ideas about what “patriotism” mean, also include the idea that I am FOR people being able to say whatever they damn well please as long as it doesn’t directly hurt someone else.
It seems people are just looking for shit to bitch about when it comes to The Dixy Chicks. I don’t even listen to their music, but the hype surrounding any off statement they make strikes me as silly.[/quote]
You got that wrong Bro, it would and does matter what country you come from. Patriotism instills ownership in someone. That sense of ownership supports people living by the laws of the land, wanting to help your neighbors, wanting to keep an clean and healthy environment. This has been proven by demonstrating how people of one country come together when threatened by another country.
So perhaps patriotism may cause division at a very high level between countries, but within the country it supports unity and a better quality of life.
As far as the Dixie Chicks, they’re ugly and their music sucks. They are just being anti-patriotic for the publicity. Bad press is better than no press.
[quote]hedo wrote:
Patriotism to me is a belief in your country and the realization that sometimes your needs and wants must take a back seat to the needs of your community and country.
Nobody wants to die for their country but some must, in order to preserve it and the society we live in. That burden falls mainly on our soldiers but also on policeman and fireman and others who serve the community and country.
Not every soldier agrees with the war he is fighting but that’s not the point.
You don’t even have to like or agree with the elected leaders but somebody has to lead and somebody has to follow.
Picking and choosing what enemy you feel it is worth opposing is not a luxury the soldier/citizen or policeman can enjoy.
I think it’s patriotic to believe in your country and your fellow citizens and do what is necessary to preserve your society. It may not be perfect and all good but it is certainly not inherently bad.[/quote]
Extreme example, but in Nazi German who would have been the patriot, the one who toed the party line? Or, the one who said I cannot with good conscience be a party to this?
[quote]Dedicated wrote:
Extreme example, but in Nazi German who would have been the patriot, the one who toed the party line? Or, the one who said I cannot with good conscience be a party to this?[/quote]
Patriots are only in the U.S. I think you are confusing patriotism and nationalism. Two totally different concepts.
I could care less about their music or their politics.
They’ve said what they wanted to say. They whined when other people had the nerve to disagree with them, particularly the president.
Apparently, they think you only get free speech if you say things that they agree with.
Apparently, they also think that people shouldn’t be allowed to not buy their music if they don’t like their public pronouncements.
If they can’t recognize that they’ve made their own beds… that is either complete blindess, stupidity, or petulance… or a mixture of the three.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
Extreme example, but in Nazi German who would have been the patriot, the one who toed the party line? Or, the one who said I cannot with good conscience be a party to this?
Patriots are only in the U.S. I think you are confusing patriotism and nationalism. Two totally different concepts.
[/quote]
Uhhhhhh…wrong! Patriotism is not an American invention–though most people around the world point and laugh at our concept of it.
Patriotism is mostly symbolic emotional display (for example, telling people you would die in defense of your country’s values) where as nationalism is also symbolic but also tends to have the feature of denigrating other nations.
To answer the original question–that is easy–pick the side that won.
[quote]Dedicated wrote:
hedo wrote:
Patriotism to me is a belief in your country and the realization that sometimes your needs and wants must take a back seat to the needs of your community and country.
Nobody wants to die for their country but some must, in order to preserve it and the society we live in. That burden falls mainly on our soldiers but also on policeman and fireman and others who serve the community and country.
Not every soldier agrees with the war he is fighting but that’s not the point.
You don’t even have to like or agree with the elected leaders but somebody has to lead and somebody has to follow.
Picking and choosing what enemy you feel it is worth opposing is not a luxury the soldier/citizen or policeman can enjoy.
I think it’s patriotic to believe in your country and your fellow citizens and do what is necessary to preserve your society. It may not be perfect and all good but it is certainly not inherently bad.
Extreme example, but in Nazi German who would have been the patriot, the one who toed the party line? Or, the one who said I cannot with good conscience be a party to this?[/quote]
Big difference between a Nazi Party member or SS Zealot and your standard GI Wermacht trooper.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Patriots are only in the U.S. I think you are confusing patriotism and nationalism. Two totally different concepts. [/quote]
???
[quote]hedo wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
hedo wrote:
Patriotism to me is a belief in your country and the realization that sometimes your needs and wants must take a back seat to the needs of your community and country.
Nobody wants to die for their country but some must, in order to preserve it and the society we live in. That burden falls mainly on our soldiers but also on policeman and fireman and others who serve the community and country.
Not every soldier agrees with the war he is fighting but that’s not the point.
You don’t even have to like or agree with the elected leaders but somebody has to lead and somebody has to follow.
Picking and choosing what enemy you feel it is worth opposing is not a luxury the soldier/citizen or policeman can enjoy.
I think it’s patriotic to believe in your country and your fellow citizens and do what is necessary to preserve your society. It may not be perfect and all good but it is certainly not inherently bad.
Extreme example, but in Nazi German who would have been the patriot, the one who toed the party line? Or, the one who said I cannot with good conscience be a party to this?
Big difference between a Nazi Party member or SS Zealot and your standard GI Wermacht trooper.
[/quote]
What about an average German citizen who was aware of deach camps but turned a blind eye.
I can understand them staying silent for they would lose their lives speaking out.
But, who would be the true patriot? The one given the opportunity spoke out against this atrocity, against their Government. Or, the one who supported it if with words only.
What I am getting at is when you said being a patriot is supporting your Gov. even if you don’t agree with it, but where would you draw the line?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Uhhhhhh…wrong! Patriotism is not an American invention[/quote]
I stand corrected.
Ever repeat a word over and over again until it doesn’t even seem like it has a meaning anymore?
Yeah…
[quote]nephorm wrote:
I could care less about their music or their politics.
They’ve said what they wanted to say. They whined when other people had the nerve to disagree with them, particularly the president.
Apparently, they think you only get free speech if you say things that they agree with.
Apparently, they also think that people shouldn’t be allowed to not buy their music if they don’t like their public pronouncements.
If they can’t recognize that they’ve made their own beds… that is either complete blindess, stupidity, or petulance… or a mixture of the three.[/quote]
I agree with this. Whether you agree with them or not they depend on their livelyhood from the public and therefore are accountable to how the public responds to what they say.
[quote]I could care less about their music or their politics.
They’ve said what they wanted to say. They whined when other people had the nerve to disagree with them, particularly the president.
Apparently, they think you only get free speech if you say things that they agree with.
Apparently, they also think that people shouldn’t be allowed to not buy their music if they don’t like their public pronouncements.
If they can’t recognize that they’ve made their own beds… that is either complete blindess, stupidity, or petulance… or a mixture of the three. [/quote]
LOL. I think you are letting your “hatred” for them get the best of you.
I’ve seen them on the news and so forth lately, they aren’t whining. They aren’t complaining about other people having opinions. They too respond from time to time to the comments of others.
They apparently didn’t like death threats or things like that, but I don’t see why they should.
The blade you are attempting to wield cuts both ways…
[quote]vroom wrote:
The blade you are attempting to wield cuts both ways…[/quote]
As does the two-edged sword of the First Amendment.
[quote]Dedicated wrote:
hedo wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
hedo wrote:
Patriotism to me is a belief in your country and the realization that sometimes your needs and wants must take a back seat to the needs of your community and country.
Nobody wants to die for their country but some must, in order to preserve it and the society we live in. That burden falls mainly on our soldiers but also on policeman and fireman and others who serve the community and country.
Not every soldier agrees with the war he is fighting but that’s not the point.
You don’t even have to like or agree with the elected leaders but somebody has to lead and somebody has to follow.
Picking and choosing what enemy you feel it is worth opposing is not a luxury the soldier/citizen or policeman can enjoy.
I think it’s patriotic to believe in your country and your fellow citizens and do what is necessary to preserve your society. It may not be perfect and all good but it is certainly not inherently bad.
Extreme example, but in Nazi German who would have been the patriot, the one who toed the party line? Or, the one who said I cannot with good conscience be a party to this?
Big difference between a Nazi Party member or SS Zealot and your standard GI Wermacht trooper.
What about an average German citizen who was aware of deach camps but turned a blind eye.
I can understand them staying silent for they would lose their lives speaking out.
But, who would be the true patriot? The one given the opportunity spoke out against this atrocity, against their Government. Or, the one who supported it if with words only.
What I am getting at is when you said being a patriot is supporting your Gov. even if you don’t agree with it, but where would you draw the line?[/quote]
I don’t have the answer to that question. The only government I’ve ever lived under is this one, in this time period.
From 60 years later, in America, I’d have a hard time supporting the German govt. of the 40’s.