[quote]vroom wrote:
Way to focus on a tangent to the issue being raised guys.[/quote]
Enlighten us, vroom. Please.
These seems to be a line of thinking that the Nation-State is no longer needed and concepts like Patriotism are out dated.
I blame John Lennon.
Patriotism is good… especially when used to bolster the nation against things that endanger the nation.
When it’s used to manipulate the population for other purposes, then it can be a problem.
I’m guessing the latter should be termed blind patriotism or something appropriate to distinguish it from the general concept of patriotism.
Neither do I think society is turning into a bunch of pussies who aren’t patriotic. Soceity is turning into a bunch of sophisticated people who are reserving their patriotism for a situation they feel deserves it. They aren’t going to follow any old course of action just because someone calls them anti-American for thinking for themselves.
There is a vast difference between the two… and I hope everyone sees it.
[quote]vroom wrote:
When it’s used to manipulate the population for other purposes, then it can be a problem.[/quote]
Where is this happening? This country is at war. I’m thinking that’s a good time to be patriotic.
And who will be the arbitor of this new term that you think needs to be applied? That’s a subjective call at best, and I really don’t think it is up to other people to stick their noses where they don’t belong.
I think this country is very much turning into a nation of pussies. At least a good portion of the country is.
Reserving their patriotism sounds a lot like apathy to me. But you are the sophisticatedone, so I guess I’ll defer to your expertise of the human psyche.
As usual, your post tries to act smart, but falls typically sort of actually saying anything.
[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
I served my country in Combat and if called I would do it again. As far as the Dixie Chicks go, I support their freedom to make any anti-American statement that they choose. I also have a right not to listen to them.
In a way they have the right idea. Speak up and be heard. If not, sit back and quit complaining.
Me Solomon Grundy[/quote]
Could you please point to and underline the statement that was “anti-american”?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Where is this happening? This country is at war. I’m thinking that’s a good time to be patriotic.[/quote]
Just because you are at war doesn’t mean you can’t continue to use your brain, assuming one does so at other times.
Was I even talking to you anyway? What is your major malfunction Sherlock? It’s not as if it’s a term that people haven’t used before. If you choose to label everything black and white, bully for you, but most people past grade 8 actually realize life has shades of gray.
[quote]I think this country is very much turning into a nation of pussies. At least a good portion of the country is.
Reserving their patriotism sounds a lot like apathy to me. But you are the sophisticated one, so I guess I’ll defer to your expertise of the human psyche.
[/quote]
You can think it if you like, but I’d bet you dollars to donuts that if a clear enemy invaded the US that liberal and conservative alike would willingly fight and die to save the country. You wouldn’t consider that patriotism? You really believe otherwise?
This is a forum right, where we discuss things? I’m tossing out some thoughts. If you don’t like them, maybe you could, oh I don’t know, offer some counter thoughts or something?
Oh boo hoo, vroom is saying something I don’t like, I’m going to insult him and act like a child instead of making an effort to actually make an argument.
Don’t blame me if you are having trouble finding an angle to pick a fight, I’m not on slippery ground with anything I’ve said and you know it.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Could you please point to and underline the statement that was “anti-american”?[/quote]
Whoa there Prof X, I don’t think you are playing fair…
[quote]vroom wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Could you please point to and underline the statement that was “anti-american”?
Whoa there Prof X, I don’t think you are playing fair… [/quote]
I really would like an answer though. I would like to know how things get labeled “anti-American” so easily.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I think this country is very much turning into a nation of pussies. At least a good portion of the country is.[/quote]
Agreed. We are turning into a nation whose individuals are obsessed with nothing more than their self-indulgence and their self-expression with little appreciation of how hard it has been over time to carve the kind of society they currently enjoy.
In truth, many of these folks have nothing to be patriotic about. In their minds, they fully believe that the benefits of a free and liberal (old meaning) society are entitlements etched in stone. They think it endures without effort. There is no sense of pride because all of this fantastic civil society around them is ‘no big deal’ - they expect that it sprouts up out of the ground with no effort like crabgrass.
And, of course, patriotism might entail believing that you think one country might be better than another, and in this day and age of therapism, such pronouncements are considered blasphemy.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
And, of course, patriotism might entail believing that you think one country might be better than another, and in this day and age of therapism, such pronouncements are considered blasphemy.
[/quote]
Blasphemy? I hate to interrupt your own personal “sermon on the mount”, but there is more than your individual perspective. I related this originally to gang wars. You have yet to prove differently. In a perfect world, it wouldn’t matter what street you came from as it relates to who is better. As a soldier, you don’t take an oath to simply uphold “America” because that is just a location. You take an oath to uphold the ideals in the Constitution…which can be fought for no matter where you are in the world.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
vroom wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Could you please point to and underline the statement that was “anti-american”?
Whoa there Prof X, I don’t think you are playing fair…
I really would like an answer though. I would like to know how things get labeled “anti-American” so easily.[/quote]
It’s kind of a combination of what they said, and where they said it that would lead many, many. many folks to believe they are anti-american. Since patriotism is exclusively and american word, speaking out so forcefuylly against it in Europe smacks of “I hate America”. In fact if you didn’t kinow better, one would think that the following quote was from wreckless.
“… I don’t understand the necessity for patriotism. Why do you have to be a patriot? About what? This land is our land? Why? You can like where you live and like your life, but as for loving the whole country… I don’t see why people care about patriotism.”
People are dying for her right to say that bullshit. But I cannot for the life os me undersatnd why anyone would be offended by it.
I need three days, full amnesty, and unlimited ammo.
[quote]vroom wrote:
I’m guessing the latter should be termed blind patriotism or something appropriate to distinguish it from the general concept of patriotism.
[/quote]
Vroom,
Have we decided what patriotism is yet?
Here’s an idea: All patriotism is blind. The reason is that one must turn a blind eye to the evils one’s country commits in the name of “security”, “democracy”–name any other ideal you can think of–in order to be completly in support of it’s actions.
This is only true if one thinks patriotism is nothing more than supoport for the regime and not if it supports only its values and ideals.
If you think your country is perfect and free from evil deeds and actions then you are a patriot–and blind.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
vroom wrote:
I’m guessing the latter should be termed blind patriotism or something appropriate to distinguish it from the general concept of patriotism.
Vroom,
Have we decided what patriotism is yet?
Here’s an idea: All patriotism is blind. The reason is that one must turn a blind eye to the evils one’s country commits in the name of “security”, “democracy”–name any other ideal you can think of–in order to be completly in support of it’s actions.
This is only true if one thinks patriotism is nothing more than supoport for the regime and not if it supports only its values and ideals.
If you think your country is perfect and free from evil deeds and actions then you are a patriot–and blind.[/quote]
You start with a false assumption. All patriotism is not blind.
Patriotism includes trying to make the country the best it can be. This is not possible if you are blind to the problems.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Patriotism includes trying to make the country the best it can be. This is not possible if you are blind to the problems.
[/quote]
I might agree with you but the actions I see from most who call themselves patriots are diametrically apposed to this idea. For example trying to make this place better includes trying to understand what is fundamentally wrong–so it can be fixed. These people don’t see anything wrong–everything is just hunky to them–except “gay marriage and abortion.”
However, I think I was trying to equate the idea of blind patriotism with zealotry–which is how I view all patriotism. It’s the “Hooray for us and fuck you” attitude of the self proclaimed patriots that make me think this way.
Besides, if some uber-conservative republicans consider them-selves patriotic just because they support something then I don’t want any part of it.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Besides, if some uber-conservative republicans consider them-selves patriotic just because they support something then I don’t want any part of it.[/quote]
I don’t think it is the uber-conservative republicans wrapping themselves in the flag nearly so much as it is the uber-left wing radicals that are doing the same while they are hating this country.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Patriotism includes trying to make the country the best it can be. This is not possible if you are blind to the problems.
I might agree with you but the actions I see from most who call themselves patriots are diametrically apposed to this idea. For example trying to make this place better includes trying to understand what is fundamentally wrong–so it can be fixed. These people don’t see anything wrong–everything is just hunky to them–except “gay marriage and abortion.”
However, I think I was trying to equate the idea of blind patriotism with zealotry–which is how I view all patriotism. It’s the “Hooray for us and fuck you” attitude of the self proclaimed patriots that make me think this way.
Besides, if some uber-conservative republicans consider them-selves patriotic just because they support something then I don’t want any part of it.[/quote]
The same can be said of the left wingers that are more than willing to compare American soldiers to Nazis and members of Pol Pots regime just to generate political support and raise cash from their base.
America is not perfect. No one thinks it is. You are blinding yourself to what your political opponents really think and want.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I don’t think it is the uber-conservative republicans wrapping themselves in the flag nearly so much as it is the uber-left wing radicals that are doing the same while they are hating this country.
[/quote]
How does one hate a an entire country? In particular this is an awfully big country to hate.
If I am a liberal and I don’t agree with the policies of the current administration and I think that most of the citizens in this country are blind and ignorant of many of the problems and I speak my opinion of the problems and the reasons why they are a problem, then I hate this country?
Wow! I can’t wait for a regime change and the shoe is on the other foot.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I don’t think it is the uber-conservative republicans wrapping themselves in the flag nearly so much as it is the uber-left wing radicals that are doing the same while they are hating this country.
How does one hate a an entire country? In particular this is an awfully big country to hate.
If I am a liberal and I don’t agree with the policies of the current administration and I think that most of the citizens in this country are blind and ignorant of many of the problems and I speak my opinion of the problems and the reasons why they are a problem, then I hate this country?
Wow! I can’t wait for a regime change and the shoe is on the other foot. [/quote]
There sees to be a growing trend of hating the whole concept of nations.
It is certainly pervasive in the crap the Dixie Chicks are spouting and I have noticed it in your posts as well.
I just want to step in and state clearly that I disagree with your stance Lifticus.
I am proud of my own country. I consider myself patriotic. However, I am as critical of my own government and their policies just as much as those issues I blather on about here.
However, that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t sacrifice my life to uphold the very similar ideals of freedom, democracy and the bill of rights enshrined in my own constitution.
Like others are trying to say, believing in, fighting for and protecting those ideas is certainly something that can be considered patriotic.
What you are arguing about is not patriotism. You are arguing about gang mentality and group cohesion or loyalty, which is similar, but not exactly the same.
However, to make sure I piss everyone off, I do have to say that liberals can certainly consider themselves patriotic as well, when they don’t wish to be involved in the situation in Iraq.
As I’ve tried to say a few times, different people hold different ideals, and fight to promote them. When these ideals are their interpretation of the constitution and what is better for the country, then they can be at odds with each other but still be patriots.
This is what the “agree with the Administration or you are a traitor” group sometimes seems to miss.
You live in a democracy. This means that all voices and viewpoints are important. This is what your constitution is about. To have democrat and republican villifying the viewpoints of those that disagree with them is actually not in line with believe all men are created equal and that all mens votes are equally important.
Sigh, and don’t hide behind the “who’s been elected” crap. The people elected do get to make the decisions, but that doesn’t mean they’ll be reflecting the will of the people during their tenure either. The discussion and disagreement is part of choosing who the next dufus in control will be.
Based on everyones ideas.
Luckily, and I hope I believe this, most people in the world aren’t ardent political bickerers like those of us in here. They are just reasonable people trying to make reasonble decisions. Unfortunately, the fringes have a better chance of getting riled up by issues and being represented during elections.
It’s too bad the mainstream population is driven away from politics by all the bullshit that it contains.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
There sees to be a growing trend of hating the whole concept of nations.
It is certainly pervasive in the crap the Dixie Chicks are spouting and I have noticed it in your posts as well.
[/quote]
My last post notwithstanding, there is a lot to be said to putting good people above nationality.
I’ve been “dismissed” a lot of times in here for not being American. From my point of view I could “dismiss” people here for not being Canadian. That’s nonsense. People and their qualities are not defined by the point on map their mother chose to give birth.
People can transcend their beginnings and their surroundings. Not all of them do, so we apply labels of nationality and accept stereotypes representing entire nations.
I’m not bitching, I’m sure it will never be any other way, it’s the way our brains work.