[quote]hedo wrote:
I don’t have the answer to that question. The only government I’ve ever lived under is this one, in this time period.
From 60 years later, in America, I’d have a hard time supporting the German govt. of the 40’s.
[/quote]
You don’t have an answer to that question? How convenient. Apparently it is very easy to scream about how everyone should support their government…until we bring up that bad 'ole “history thang”.
[quote]hedo wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
hedo wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
hedo wrote:
Patriotism to me is a belief in your country and the realization that sometimes your needs and wants must take a back seat to the needs of your community and country.
Nobody wants to die for their country but some must, in order to preserve it and the society we live in. That burden falls mainly on our soldiers but also on policeman and fireman and others who serve the community and country.
Not every soldier agrees with the war he is fighting but that’s not the point.
You don’t even have to like or agree with the elected leaders but somebody has to lead and somebody has to follow.
Picking and choosing what enemy you feel it is worth opposing is not a luxury the soldier/citizen or policeman can enjoy.
I think it’s patriotic to believe in your country and your fellow citizens and do what is necessary to preserve your society. It may not be perfect and all good but it is certainly not inherently bad.
Extreme example, but in Nazi German who would have been the patriot, the one who toed the party line? Or, the one who said I cannot with good conscience be a party to this?
Big difference between a Nazi Party member or SS Zealot and your standard GI Wermacht trooper.
What about an average German citizen who was aware of deach camps but turned a blind eye.
I can understand them staying silent for they would lose their lives speaking out.
But, who would be the true patriot? The one given the opportunity spoke out against this atrocity, against their Government. Or, the one who supported it if with words only.
What I am getting at is when you said being a patriot is supporting your Gov. even if you don’t agree with it, but where would you draw the line?
I don’t have the answer to that question. The only government I’ve ever lived under is this one, in this time period.
From 60 years later, in America, I’d have a hard time supporting the German govt. of the 40’s.
[/quote]
The winners of wars write history.
In my opinion, the U.S. is no longer the greatest nation in the world.
In fact, we have, in my opinion, one of the worst public education systems in the world.
The success China is having with such a large popluation makes me think they have a much more efficient and stable system of governing.
Although we have a huge amount of buying power and leverage in the world market, i believe China dwarfs us in this regard.
The only aspect of our nation that is truelly leeps and bounds above virtually all others is our joint military(much thanks to Isreali communication tech).
I honestly can say that China has greatly narrowed the gap between the U.S. and the rest of the world.
If China continues to advance at it’s current rate the U.S. may be left behind when or if the dust settles in the middle east.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Blasphemy? I hate to interrupt your own personal “sermon on the mount”, but there is more than your individual perspective.[/quote]
You don’t say.
I have no idea what you said or when you said it, and never undertook the challenge to prove anything related to it.
Not surprisingly, your post makes little sense. My point was that an all too prevailing attitude nowadays is that it is heresy to suggest that one country - say one with liberal values and attitudes - is better than another - say one that is illiberal and undemocratic. A version of political correctness has infested the thinking that has led to essentially cultural and moral relativism among nations.
Patriotism often means “I’d rather live here than there” - but, as I stated earlier, it is considered blasphemy among certain trendy thinking to actually believe one place is better than another.
You start off talking about a perfect world - well, I have some bad news for you. Then, you talk about the soldier’s oath. Your bit about fighting for the ideals of the Constitution is self-evident - no one is upholding a geographic location. America is a set of ideas as much as a place on a map - nothing new here.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Not surprisingly, your post makes little sense. [/quote]
I forget that English isn’t always everyone’s first language.
[quote]
My point was that an all too prevailing attitude nowadays is that it is heresy to suggest that one country - say one with liberal values and attitudes - is better than another - say one that is illiberal and undemocratic. A version of political correctness has infested the thinking that has led to essentially cultural and moral relativism among nations. [/quote]
This is juvenile. Tell me, how would you respond to another nation saying it was better than us? Yet everyone else in the world is supposed to feel differently?
[quote]
Patriotism often means “I’d rather live here than there” - but, as I stated earlier, it is considered blasphemy among certain trendy thinking to actually believe one place is better than another.[/quote]
And I think you are missing the point. Patriotism to a place alone is basic. It implies that someone has no understanding of the ideals beyond what they experience in day to day life. Why is America “better” than anywhere else? It can only be so if the majority uphold a set of goals and values seen as desireable to those involved. Those values have to be constantly fought for and defended in order to continue. They are not inherent to a place anymore than my personal values are inherent to my apartment. Therefore, the same way we can be better, we can equally take a turn for the worse should we get ahead of ourselves.
[quote]
You start off talking about a perfect world - well, I have some bad news for you. Then, you talk about the soldier’s oath. Your bit about fighting for the ideals of the Constitution is self-evident - no one is upholding a geographic location. America is a set of ideas as much as a place on a map - nothing new here.[/quote]
Again, to support the idea that America is simply better as if it is above evil or the same faults as every other geographic area inhabited by humans is missing the point. The moment we stop shining a light on our own mistakes or misdeeds is the moment we become our own worse possible enemy.
[quote]vroom wrote:
LOL. I think you are letting your “hatred” for them get the best of you.
[/quote]
I’m honestly indifferent to them. The interviews I’ve read, particularly after Bush replied to them, made them seem like spoiled children.
I’m responding to this article and the previous ones I read after their last big incident. I don’t follow them… so perhaps you’re right.
All I know is that whenever I hear anything about/from them, there is whining involved.
[quote]
The blade you are attempting to wield cuts both ways…[/quote]
Yes… I don’t think I’ve ever advocated either that anyone should have their free speech curtailed or that we should not be able to express our dissatisfaction with said speech in the marketplace, if they’re selling something.
If I were to say something about modern liberals, for example, and people decided to stop buying my widgets as a result… I don’t think I’d have the nerve to complain about it…
[quote]Professor X wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
I forget that English isn’t always everyone’s first language.[/quote]
No, it is more a function of your writing being neither particularly good nor coherent.
Other nations and its nationals can say their country is better than mine any time they want, they can even believe it - where did I suggest otherwise? When did I suggest other nations and their nationals are supposed to feel differently?
Europeans are entitled to feel patriotic, so are the Japanese. And so forth.
Again, you demonstrate your usual problem - you start making of viewpoints and then ascribing them to other posters.
How can I be missing the point when this is exactly what I said in the post above?
To repeat - this is exactly the point I made in the last post and the post before that. The freedoms we enjoy are not a given - they must be preserved in law and effort.
Yup.
This is your error. Thinking something is better is not the same as thinking it is perfect. Being patriotic doesn’t mean that you think your country is ‘above evil’, it’s that you think it is better than all the alternatives.
A trite phrase, but honestly - what patriot has suggested that we abandon self-criticism and self-audit? Name one.
You seem to be under the illusion that there legions of false patriots running around who think America can do no wrong. Nonsense.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
hedo wrote:
I don’t have the answer to that question. The only government I’ve ever lived under is this one, in this time period.
From 60 years later, in America, I’d have a hard time supporting the German govt. of the 40’s.
You don’t have an answer to that question? How convenient. Apparently it is very easy to scream about how everyone should support their government…until we bring up that bad 'ole “history thang”.[/quote]
what the fuck are you talking about…again.
Do you actually read posts before your spew.
Where did I scream about how everyone should support something. I made a statement answering the post.
It’s better to be sincere then to be a revisionist. A poser wouldn’t get that I suppose.
[quote]Goal=Colossus wrote:
hedo wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
hedo wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
hedo wrote:
Patriotism to me is a belief in your country and the realization that sometimes your needs and wants must take a back seat to the needs of your community and country.
Nobody wants to die for their country but some must, in order to preserve it and the society we live in. That burden falls mainly on our soldiers but also on policeman and fireman and others who serve the community and country.
Not every soldier agrees with the war he is fighting but that’s not the point.
You don’t even have to like or agree with the elected leaders but somebody has to lead and somebody has to follow.
Picking and choosing what enemy you feel it is worth opposing is not a luxury the soldier/citizen or policeman can enjoy.
I think it’s patriotic to believe in your country and your fellow citizens and do what is necessary to preserve your society. It may not be perfect and all good but it is certainly not inherently bad.
Extreme example, but in Nazi German who would have been the patriot, the one who toed the party line? Or, the one who said I cannot with good conscience be a party to this?
Big difference between a Nazi Party member or SS Zealot and your standard GI Wermacht trooper.
What about an average German citizen who was aware of deach camps but turned a blind eye.
I can understand them staying silent for they would lose their lives speaking out.
But, who would be the true patriot? The one given the opportunity spoke out against this atrocity, against their Government. Or, the one who supported it if with words only.
What I am getting at is when you said being a patriot is supporting your Gov. even if you don’t agree with it, but where would you draw the line?
I don’t have the answer to that question. The only government I’ve ever lived under is this one, in this time period.
From 60 years later, in America, I’d have a hard time supporting the German govt. of the 40’s.
The winners of wars write history.
In my opinion, the U.S. is no longer the greatest nation in the world.
In fact, we have, in my opinion, one of the worst public education systems in the world.
The success China is having with such a large popluation makes me think they have a much more efficient and stable system of governing.
Although we have a huge amount of buying power and leverage in the world market, i believe China dwarfs us in this regard.
The only aspect of our nation that is truelly leeps and bounds above virtually all others is our joint military(much thanks to Isreali communication tech).
I honestly can say that China has greatly narrowed the gap between the U.S. and the rest of the world.
If China continues to advance at it’s current rate the U.S. may be left behind when or if the dust settles in the middle east.
[/quote]
I’ll have to disagree. China may be growing now but the internal problems are massive. It also grows via export, has little development of new products and is technically way behind. China’s laws regarding property and property rights also limits it’s potential for growth in the future.
Much thanks to Israeli Communication technology…could you explain that one?
The current integrated networking system Link16 isn’t an Israeli product?
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
No, it is more a function of your writing being neither particularly good nor coherent.[/quote]
Are you reading the stuff you write after you send it through? Don’t get any hopes up of winning the Pulitzer Prize any time soon.
That isn’t an error in my thinking. I am saying that anyone who would walk around screaming the words, “America is better” probably has little clue just how wrong we could go at any moment once we let that much pride influence our decisions. “America” is a work in progress. Many of you will mention how you don’t agree with everything this administration does, yet many of you turn right around and act like anyone else who points out a fault is “anti-american”. Apparently, you can only disagree with our current government if you are wearing a red cheerleading outfit and screaming how great they are in between muffled “well a kind of don’t like that”'s.
Read above. The proof is in action, not talk.
[quote]
You seem to be under the illusion that there legions of false patriots running around who think America can do no wrong. Nonsense.[/quote]
Is it really?
[quote]hedo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
hedo wrote:
I don’t have the answer to that question. The only government I’ve ever lived under is this one, in this time period.
From 60 years later, in America, I’d have a hard time supporting the German govt. of the 40’s.
You don’t have an answer to that question? How convenient. Apparently it is very easy to scream about how everyone should support their government…until we bring up that bad 'ole “history thang”.
what the fuck are you talking about…again.
Do you actually read posts before your spew.
Where did I scream about how everyone should support something. I made a statement answering the post.
It’s better to be sincere then to be a revisionist. A poser wouldn’t get that I suppose.
[/quote]
This thread is about “patriotism”. Your response was met with a question. Why do you think that question was asked? You wrote, “[quote]You don’t even have to like or agree with the elected leaders but somebody has to lead and somebody has to follow.[/quote]” With regards to the soldier, I am sure we all agree. However, I am sure there have been many societies where people chose to simply follow. The question asked makes sense in that regard.
I’ll also add that you weren’t insulted. I guess the gloves are off.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
hedo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
hedo wrote:
I don’t have the answer to that question. The only government I’ve ever lived under is this one, in this time period.
From 60 years later, in America, I’d have a hard time supporting the German govt. of the 40’s.
You don’t have an answer to that question? How convenient. Apparently it is very easy to scream about how everyone should support their government…until we bring up that bad 'ole “history thang”.
what the fuck are you talking about…again.
Do you actually read posts before your spew.
Where did I scream about how everyone should support something. I made a statement answering the post.
It’s better to be sincere then to be a revisionist. A poser wouldn’t get that I suppose.
This thread is about “patriotism”. Your response was met with a question. Why do you think that question was asked? You wrote, “You don’t even have to like or agree with the elected leaders but somebody has to lead and somebody has to follow.” With regards to the soldier, I am sure we all agree. However, I am sure there have been many societies where people chose to simply follow. The question asked makes sense in that regard.
I’ll also add that you weren’t insulted. I guess the gloves are off.[/quote]
If you didn’t intend to insult then I misunderstood your intent. If I shouldn’t have considered it insulting, you shouldn’t be offened by my response.
[quote]Dedicated wrote:
Extreme example, but in Nazi German who would have been the patriot, the one who toed the party line? Or, the one who said I cannot with good conscience be a party to this?[/quote]
I consider men like Rommel and the other generals that tried to get rid of Hitler to save their country from total destruction patriotic.
[quote]Goal=Colossus wrote:
…The success China is having with such a large popluation makes me think they have a much more efficient and stable system of governing.
…[/quote]
It is called a dictatorship.
It is efficient and relatively stable.
It would also suck to live under.
The US government may not be as efficient but is far more stable.
We have had the same system of government in place for over 200 years. Far longer than China and most other nations, including many European countries.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
Sorry to but in Max, but the link that you provided looks like over 50% White. How does that figure?
Correct, I am stating that it should reflect more what census statistics reflect in that minorities only acount for about 10% of the entire US population. If it were more equal there would be more white (European origin) and less minority.
I can’t answer you as far as being upper-middle-class…hoooray for you then.
Two data points so far. Anymore? please post if you are above lower-middle-class and you joined the military on your own with out a family military background. I have a feeling due to the nature of this site the data will all be skewed. Not too sure how many lower income people would view this site.
To answer your last question, I am not a demo-crap or a re-pube-lickin. I don’t affiliate with political parties being that I tend to try and remain objective–yeah right! I do tend to lean toward the left.[/quote]
Max,
Thanks for putting me in my place! You make it sound like serving in the military menial or for those that can?t do anything else. Why does the racial make up of the military matter anyway?
Me Solomon Grundy
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
I served my country in Combat and if called I would do it again. As far as the Dixie Chicks go, I support their freedom to make any anti-American statement that they choose. I also have a right not to listen to them.
In a way they have the right idea. Speak up and be heard. If not, sit back and quit complaining.
Me Solomon Grundy
Could you please point to and underline the statement that was “anti-american”?[/quote]
I have been schooled by Prof.
After going back reading my post I now see how misleading it was. I do not consider the statements that they made anti-American. They could make anti-American statements if they wanted to. I do take issue with making statements against the President of the US in front of a foreign audience. I?m sure that the comment that was made was just off hand and not thought out. It is my opinion that she should have chosen a better venue.
Me Solomon Grundy
LOL. Retard.
I know you don’t deal with subtle issues very well, but see if you can focus your beady eyes on this for a second.
There is a big difference between believing you’d rather live under the conditions at point A than point B than the moral assertion that point A is “better” than point B.
What people often object to is the mass of values that ignorantly get lumped into such statements, when they should not be.
For example, I prefer to live in Canada. I think Canada is the best place on Earth, for a variety of reasons. That’s all cool. What’s not cool is if I start to blather on about how shitty America is for one reason or another like an ignorant asshole.
Honestly though, since I’ve lived in both countries, I can say they are slightly different in some respects. Some day, people may realize that different does not mean bad. The fact a few things might be a bit of a surprise might actually be enjoyable or pleasing.
Anyway, I truly suspect you’ll have no fucking idea what I’m trying to say and you’ll continue to have no idea what those trendy assholes are actually objecting to, which is generally the ignorance of poeple who are making unfounded blanket statements (like me), and that it will continue to be political fodder to brand people who don’t like ignorance as elitist liberals who are very politically correct.
If you weren’t an ignorant fuck nobody would have to correct your ignorance in the first place.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The US government may not be as efficient but is far more stable.
We have had the same system of government in place for over 200 years. Far longer than China and most other nations, including many European countries.
[/quote]
You may want to look into how long some “forms of government” have held sway in other countries in the past, if not just recently.
[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
Thanks for putting me in my place! You make it sound like serving in the military menial or for those that can?t do anything else. Why does the racial make up of the military matter anyway?
Me Solomon Grundy
[/quote]
Sorry! I didn’t mean it to come across that way. I joined because I had no other recourse to pay for school–I know–how patriotic of me! I didn’t love war before I joined. I didn’t question the possibility of dying and or having to actually kill another human being–they were non-existent thoughts then.
It is far from menial when viewed as a whole but yes I felt very complacent and lackadaisical in my attitude towards the possibility of going to war. Was it the right viewpoint? Probably not! But it’s over and done with for me and I was lucky.
Training in the dirt and muck isn’t the same thing as combat when it comes right down to it and after a week or two in the field all one can really think of is getting laid, drinking a beer, eating real food, taking a hot shower, and sleeping in a real bed–all in that order. It felt real menial because all I wanted to do was bust off some rounds for real and do what I was trained to do.
As far as why the racial makeup of the military matters I am not sure that it does when it comes to the mission. No one cares who is doing it when it needs to be done. No one questions it when it is happening. Someone posted that this country is made-up of nearly 33% minorities as of the 2000 census report. If that is true then it is closer than I had originally posted and I stand corrected.
It only matters in fairness that the military reflects what actual racial statistics are in this country. It doesn’t make sense to me that mostly minorities do the fighting for the non-minorities–if that is in fact the case.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The US government may not be as efficient but is far more stable.
We have had the same system of government in place for over 200 years. Far longer than China and most other nations, including many European countries.
You may want to look into how long some “forms of government” have held sway in other countries in the past, if not just recently.[/quote]
While there are many systems that lasted a very long thime the pace of life, instant communication and fast travel of today makes it hard to compare Chinese dynasties or Roman empires of the past to the time frames of present day.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
vroom wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The US government may not be as efficient but is far more stable.
We have had the same system of government in place for over 200 years. Far longer than China and most other nations, including many European countries.
You may want to look into how long some “forms of government” have held sway in other countries in the past, if not just recently.
While there are many systems that lasted a very long thime the pace of life, instant communication and fast travel of today makes it hard to compare Chinese dynasties or Roman empires of the past to the time frames of present day.
[/quote]
Exactly…time has speeded up SO much within the past 100 years(heck, the past 16 years with the WWW). 400-600 years under the roman republic/empire is probably closer to about 50 years today. Dont ask how i came up with 50 years, it is a complex mathematical formula…