[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Just in case my friend JEaton missed it from the previous page:
I doubt most people will read all this, but bless God, I’m gonna try anyway. Ya know who might actually read it all the way through? Orion of all people.
This was the quickest to find (5 seconds) of my couple dozen old posts in this regard where I was attempting in vain as usual to penetrate the skulls of my many vituperative detractors on this site. Alas, I do not hold out much hope that this present post will be any more successful, but one must try. As I’ve been saying, I expect the “religious” folks will always hit me the hardest. And here they are. Anyway, on August 11th 2011, I made this, my then latest clear attempt with dear Elder Forlife (man I miss that guy). https://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/homosexuality_and_the_church?id=4688275&pageNo=6
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I find it all fascinating, how people can be so convinced that their particular church is THE TRUE CHURCH, and equally convinced that anyone that disagrees is a heretic. >>>[/quote] Lemme help Elder Forlife out… again. I DO NOT believe that my visible church is THE TRUE CHURCH. I believe my GOSPEL is THE TRUE GOSPEL and MANY CHURCHES have it. Even MANY churches with which I hold serious disagreements in some areas. One need not be a Calvinist to be saved… to be a Christian (but it sure helps =] ). Ya jist havta get that already. Please? How many times have I said that at least 500 local Detroit churches from lots of different denominations are working together to bring the Gospel to this dying city? Many of them are unfortunately not truly reformed (Calvinistic), but they are my brethren who worship the same God I do. It all comes out in prayer time.
The point is, this preoccupation with Calvinism being a prerequisite for salvation and everybody else being heretics is ALL you guys. I have never said or implied any such thing. Unlike my Orthodox friend here I consider heretics to be outside the sphere of God’s saving grace which is why I am very judicious with my use of that word. People can be in error and have the gospel. Heretics don’t have the gospel. Semantic difference? Perhaps, but that’s the orthodox protestant view That I very much agree with.[/quote] That should put that outta the way, but I know better by now. See this picture http://gregnmary.gotdns.com/pix/each.jpg taken in the Comerica park parking lot at a prayer rally in Detroit. I am in that picture running a video camera for my church. MOST, now did ya hear that? MOST, that means the majority, of the people at that meeting were NOT, now did ya hear that part too? NOT, that means the opposite of were, Calvinists. Most people there from a few hundred local churches were NOT NOT NOT (I’m really trying) Calvinists. Please see this page: SermonAudio - Sermons by Speaker Keep scrolling waaaaay down.
99% of the people in that picture and 100% of the men of God on that page, ranging hundreds of years would, I promise you, agree with EVERYTHING I’ve said in THIS thread. EVERYTHING. I am NOT NOT NOT talking about Calvinism. (Though it most assuredly WAS the predominant theological view of the colonies) If this is still in any way unclear I am simply not equipped to remedy that situation.
Now, onto JEaton’s unfortunate, but predictable shallow misuse of Jesus words about “judging” which he has taken from the shortest and least explanatory passage which is found in the gospel of Luke. Anybody who doesn’t want their modernistic Americanized view of this ruined should stop reading now.
In the 7th chapter of the gospel of Matthew ( Matthew 7 ESV ) Jesus says “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you”. The measure he is speaking of there is probably an agricultural reference that they would recognize. He’s telling them that just as the same measure should be used throughout a transaction of grain to ensure equity to both parties, don’t you use one measure for yourself and another for others. Don’t be a hypocrite in other words.
There is ONE measure and it is the Word of God. Judge by THAT. He’s also saying that YOU don’t get to judge. Like Thunderbolt does when he contradicts the word of God by stating that homosexuality is not sinful despite the clearest possible biblical declarations to the contrary. THAT is the kind of judgement Jesus is warning against. Our own as opposed to God’s.
Jesus goes on there to tell them to get the speck out of their own eye before worrying about the “log” in their brother’s eye. He doesn’t tell them not to worry about their brother’s speck, but only to make sure that they are above reproach themselves before doing so. He then warns them about giving what is holy to dogs or casting their peals before pigs. I don’t know how anybody’s supposed to know who they are without “judging”. In this same chapter He also tells them [b]"Enter by the narrow gate.
For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few"[/b]. Along with “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits.” Without using any judgement? How are they supposed to do that? In verses 21-23 He tells them about MANY who have called Him “Lord” whom He will cast out as those He NEVER knew. That sounds pretty “judgmental”.
In the 24th verse of the 7th chapter of the gospel of John, ( John 7 ESV ) after giving them a criteria by which TO judge and an example of how they were not doing it, he tells the people “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” What? Jesus Christ telling people TO Judge? Yes. Same Greek word for “judge” used everywhere and about the same way btw. The 23rd chapter of the gospel of Matthew ( Matthew 23 ESV ) starting with verse 13 is one long 500 megaton nuclear blast against the religious leaders of His day. He is just pounding them for their manipulation of the Word of God and their superficial appearance of piety. In the modern western world we don’t even get the superficial appearance anymore.
Oh and btw. Getting back to Luke 6 for a second Jesus identifies “fruits” as what a man speaks. Verses 44-45. "For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, 44-for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. 45-The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. The next time somebody says “YOU DON’T KNOW MY HEART!!!” Oh yes I do and you know mine. Not the same way God does, but Jesus here says that fruit is born in the heart and that what you say shows me your heart. Speech is not ALL that fruit is, but it IS definitive.
In the 5th chapter of Paul’s 1st letter to the church at Corinth ( 1 Corinthians 5:1 ESV: It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife. ) he tells of a situation where a man was in a sexual relationship with “his father’s wife.” The precise nature and relation is irrelevant for this post. The point is it was a most damnable and horrific display of immorality as the apostle there says. They had taken his teaching on Christian liberty to terrible unintended extremes and were celebrating their own tolerance and open mindedness toward it. Paul rebukes them severely for their presumptuous arrogance.
He cries that they should be mourning instead and commands that they put him out and “deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord”. Not because he hated the man, but because he wanted him to be saved. He further decries the fact that the church is being polluted by this evil, represented as it often is by the illustration of leaven. He goes on starting in verse 9 to tell them that his previous instructions about not associating with immoral people did NOT mean those in the world. Because they’re everywhere, just like today, and you’d have to leave the world to avoid them.
He says not to associate with anybody CLAIMING TO BE A BROTHER who is living, like the man with his father’s wife, in overt unrepentant sin. He gives a quick list of representative sins (sexually immoral, greedy, swindlers, idolaters, revilers, drunkards) clearly designed to convey the idea that ANY known, public unrepentant sin is what he’s talking about. He then says they are not even to EAT with these people. Then he says in verse 12, please hear this, “For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you.”
Who is inside the church? He just told us. Those claiming to be brothers. Here we have the writer of at least 13 of the New Testament books telling a church that he founded not to worry about the corruption in the world, but you dern well better git yourselves about the business of judging those who claim to be one of us. This is (partly) the “righteous judgement” that Jesus was talking about.
John, who wrote 3 letters, the gospel of John and the book of Revelation, in his 1st letter, 3rd chapter, verses 4-10 says the following: [quote]4-Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6-No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7-Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8-Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9-No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10-By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. [/quote] Modern translations like the ESV I am here quoting, do a much better job of handling the Greek verbs than the King James which makes it sound like Christians never sin. (not so at all) Here we have John saying in a nutshell that the children of God and the children of the devil are readily discernible by whether they practice sin or not. The NASB renders it “By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious”.
Someone whose belief, life, speech, attitude and actions are habitually and unrepentantly in conflict with the biblical standard IS NOT A CHRISTIAN in anything like the historically accepted sense. I could go on for pages, but like I say, I doubt anybody, or very many anyway, will read even this much.
Every bible believing Christian will agree with this post. Not because I said it, But because it’s what the bible says. Let’s see who protests the loudest. [/quote]
This is the best and most comprehensive refutation of the absolutely erroneous notion that Jesus condemns all “judgment” that I have read. Tirib is dead on in his assertions.
