[quote]ZEB wrote:
I think you’re wrong, the Bible doesn’t say how long each person lived. I know the passage that you’re referring to.[/quote]
You think I’m wrong? Have you not read the Old Testament?
[quote]SteelyD wrote:<<< Or maybe you just missed the joke. >>>[/quote]Fair enough.[quote]SteelyD wrote:<< Are we going to talk about axioms and semantics?[/quote]Is this an eyeroll or a challenge?
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I think you’re wrong, the Bible doesn’t say how long each person lived. I know the passage that you’re referring to.[/quote]
You think I’m wrong? Have you not read the Old Testament?[/quote]
Please show me the passage that you are referring to.
Thanks.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:<<< Or maybe you just missed the joke. >>>[/quote]Fair enough.[quote]SteelyD wrote:<< Are we going to talk about axioms and semantics?[/quote]Is this an eyeroll or a challenge?
[/quote]
HA! Kind of both, really. 
But, I’ll be honest, I’m not really in the mood to type a lot these days in these forums. I’ve already gone past my post count for the week.
Hope you and your family are doing well these days.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I think you’re wrong, the Bible doesn’t say how long each person lived. I know the passage that you’re referring to.[/quote]
You think I’m wrong? Have you not read the Old Testament?[/quote]
Please show me the passage that you are referring to.
Thanks.[/quote]
Genesis 5 and 11, for the most part.
Interpretations can vary, producing an estimate for the planet’s age that falls anywhere from 6-10 thousand, but this image will point you to particular chapters and verses.
The rest of the chart.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:<<< Or maybe you just missed the joke. >>>[/quote]Fair enough.[quote]SteelyD wrote:<< Are we going to talk about axioms and semantics?[/quote]Is this an eyeroll or a challenge?
[/quote]
HA! Kind of both, really. But, I’ll be honest, I’m not really in the mood to type a lot these days in these forums. I’ve already gone past my post count for the week.
Hope you and your family are doing well these days.[/quote]
I need a forty hour week, which is not even an exaggeration, to keep up with my owed responses from here. A single response to guys like Kamui is one to three hours of prayer/Word, thought, composition and revision in that order. Sometimes I do it in sections over time offline and then post it when I’m done. One to Groo about a year ago. Took me a couple weeks (at least) off and on. The discussion of axioms directly and semantics sort of by implied necessity has been going on here forever. I’m always after THE unprovable axiom that makes all the others axiomatic. Everybody has one. I still don’t have much time at the moment. My best to you and your family as well.
My problem is never with unbelievers. I EXPECT exactly what I get from them and am never surprised or disappointed. I have no tolerance for people who recreate Christian doctrine, practice and or morality in their own image because that’s how they like it. Pick a different religion. This whole modernist perversion of not judging is just that too. A perversion. Christians are commanded in no uncertain terms TO judge and are reprimanded in the case of the church at Corinth exactly for NOT judging. The apostle Paul names names and commands his hearers to put those people out of their fellowship and even says he’s decided to deliver them to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. We are repeatedly commanded to defend the faith and maintain purity insofar as we are at all able to do so. “WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE?!?!?” is the eternal cry of biblically ignorant modern westerners who are going to be shocked to learn that God does not share their broad minded “progressive” tolerance.
I will say again. Every single syllable I have ever typed in these forums was common, accepted, mainstream belief when this nations was founded. There are still millions of Christians who believe as I do. My church is not THE church. We work with DOZENS of other local churches in community outreach and meet regularly with them to fast, pray and fellowship. We also are in partnership with many churches all over the country and world. We send our people there and they send there’s here. 95% of the time I spend with my brothers and sisters in the Lord is NOT on Sunday morning. We meet, pray, study, eat, laugh, cry, live, love and die together ALL to the glory and praise of our beloved Lord and savior. Sunday morning is simply public worship important as it is.
THAT’S What being a disciple of Christ is. Not showing up in an internet forum, telling people you’re a Christian while displaying a life of flagrantly blasphemous anti Christian, anti biblical doctrine and or practice. Our pastor has been beating us over the head lately with the necessity of both orthoDOXY AND orthoPRAXIS. Christians ALL believe certain things AND live like it. You can defend every doctrine I believe in, including six day young earth creationism and wind in the hottest part of the lake of fire. You can also be a decent, upright, middle class Joe, faithful to the wife, good to the kids, and wind up right next to him. Saving faith produces right belief and right practice or it isn’t.
ANYbody can be saved. Anybody now immersed in false doctrine and or willfully sinful practice CAN repent and the Lord WILL forgive them and make them right. However, true Christians, every last one, have some very visible things in common and those who do not have those things are not Christians. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not a groovy evolving self help philosophy in need of revision as man moves through history. It is the revelation of the mind of the one true and living God manifested in the exaltation of His Son as He redeems from death a people unto Himself. That’s the way it has been delivered to His church and if Jesus should not return for 5000 more years? That’s what it will be then.
To you folks who think Christianity will die with time? You are very sorely deluded. God will always have His remnant. The prophet Elijah cried in despair to the Lord: “I have been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away.” To which God answered “Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.” (1st Kings 19) This is the best time to be a Christian in American history. Lotsa folks among those claiming to be God’s people with their knees bowed to Baal and lips planted on his. Their time of tolerated occupation in the body of Christ is coming to an and. The refiner’s fire, make no mistake will probably arrive here in my lifetime in the form of meaningful persecution of those who dare go on taking their bibles seriously. When it actually costs people a great deal to be true Christians we’ll see who’s who.
[quote]Professor X wrote:<<< OK…I am in over my head? >>>[/quote]You are. Not because you’re a dummy. Certainly not. But because unless you’ve really been hiding it, these types of topics are something you’ve spent superficial time on at best.[quote]Professor X wrote:<<< Dude, no offense, but you seem to have a really hard time staying on topic if I am involved at all. >>>[/quote]I have a really hard time staying on topic no matter WHO’S involved. >>>[quote]Professor X wrote:<<< This discussion isn’t about you, me or some other thread. >>>[/quote]So what? Neither was the other thread and you barged in demanding I show evidence that I train and then hurled a monstrous smear on my character based on utter falsehood. A smear I am giving you ample time to rectify before exposing it. That wasn’t nice Doc and you joined a sad fraternity of fellows seeking to feel better by disparaging me. Here try this. You can copy and paste it into your next post if you just CANNOT bring yourself to type it. “I was wrong when I said that Tiribulus divulged private information that had passed between us in trust”. There ya go. You don’t even have to say you lied which is probably the case. OR, I can do it for ya and then it will definitely look like you lied. I’d prefer you do it.
I’m still gonna like you doc. Even if you force me to put you in an internet arm bar over this. See what you happens you engage the mouth (or keyboard) before you think? This is so silly. None of this crap was necessary.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote: Pick a different religion. This whole modernist perversion of not judging is just that too. A perversion. Christians are commanded in no uncertain terms TO judge and are reprimanded in the case of the church at Corinth exactly for NOT judging. The apostle Paul names names and commands his hearers to put those people out of their fellowship and even says he’s decided to deliver them to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. We are repeatedly commanded to defend the faith and maintain purity insofar as we are at all able to do so. “WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE?!?!?” is the eternal cry of biblically ignorant modern westerners who are going to be shocked to learn that God does not share their broad minded “progressive” tolerance.
[/quote]
Luke 6:37-42 [37] “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. [38] Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” [39] He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? [40] A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
[41] "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? [42] How can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Tirib, it seems you quoted everyone else but the savior himself. After reading this I come away with the feeling that he didn’t want us running around “naming names” and calling people out.
Unlike Aragon, I do think you practice a form of " al la cart" Christianity.
I think you take most of your talking points from John Calvin, who I happen to think was an evil, despicable, mass murderer who deserves a special place in hell. Lets go briefly through his teachings, shall we?
TULIP
T=Total Depravity. Man is saturated with sin, from his thinking to his emotions to his will.
U=Unconditional Election. God sorted us up before be even began creation. He decided who he was going to make himself known to. All others will remain ignorant and spend eternity in hell. Nice. Works or actions do not matter. The dice were rolled before you were even you and the teams were picked. Why even bother with free will? Why even play the game. Sounds like pure elitist horse shit to me.
L=Limited atonement. Turns out that Jesus’s gift was not as universal as we thought. He died only to atone for his pre picked teams’ sins and no one else.
I=Irresistible Grace. If you are on God’s all star team, you are getting called up. No ifs ands or buts.
P= Perseverance of the Saints. Once saved, always saved. You can’t screw this up.
Tirib, if you are right and I or anyone else is wanted, why do you even care or get worked up about it? God will continue the process of sanctification on his chosen till they get to heaven. You really have nothing to contribute. You might just get in the way.
In truth Tirib, I do not hate or dislike you. Occasionally I find you annoying but I am sure that is a characteristic that we share in the eyes of other posters.
But at the end of the day, your Calvinist bent is why I have no interest in having an off board conversation or relationship with you. If JCal is right, you are wasting your time with me. If he is wrong you have enough problems on your own.
[quote]kamui wrote:
He is saying that you’re wrong about evolution, but with integrity.
Unlike all the so-called evolutionists who conveniently ignore the social darwinist consequences of evolutionism.
Those people may be right about evolution, but they are hypocrits since they do not accordingly acknowledge the fact that they are 99,99999% similar to bonobos.
I’m inclined to agree.
(edit : but i’m too slow)[/quote]
Every seen Bonobos up close? We’re closer than that.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I will say again. Every single syllable I have ever typed in these forums was common, accepted, mainstream belief when this nations was founded.[/quote]
Absolutely, unequivocally false. It just isn’t true, no matter how many times you peddle it. And you’ve been shown this before.
It’s not for this thread, but enough of this.
[quote]JEATON wrote:
Unlike Aragon, I do think you practice a form of " al la cart" Christianity.
I think you take most of your talking points from John Calvin, who I happen to think was an evil, despicable, mass murderer who deserves a special place in hell. Lets go briefly through his teachings, shall we?[/quote]
Agreed. I’ll throw in Thomas Jefferson’s opinion of Calvinism, not because he is a religious scholar, but because I don’t think I can say it better:
I can never join Calvin in addressing his god… his religion was D[ae]monism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did. The being described in his 5 points is not the God whom you [meaning John Adams] and I acknowledge and adore, the Creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a d[ae]mon of malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no god at all, than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin.
Yep. I used to more ambivalent to the doctrine of Calvinism. Now, thanks to Tiribulus and a few others I’ve come across like him, I’ve moved pretty well into the Jeffersonian opinion.
Maybe some more will have jumped on Thunderbolt’s eminent but ignorant bandwagon by the time I get back to this thread in a little while. JEaton is definitely next though and that should probably address this as well. Actually it IS for this thread. For people who take their bible seriously that is.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
One who is truly interested in the discussion of young earth/old earth would do well to read the thread Doc Matt mentioned and find the link posted by Jewbacca. It’s fascinating, a great way to think outside the box and possibly reconcile the two cosmologies.
I think the link I’m thinking of is mentioned about 1/2 - 2/3 of the way through the thread, right Matt?
I’d go find it myself and post it but my internet connection is real slow where I’m at now and the pages are taking too long to load.
Can someone find it?[/quote]
Here you go, push. It was the link on page 21 to Dr. Schroeder’s article regarding general relativity as it applies to Genesis. It is a fantastic theory, and I cannot recommend his book, Genesis and the Big Bang, highly enough.
I doubt most people will read all this, but bless God, I’m gonna try anyway. Ya know who might actually read it all the way through? Orion of all people.
This was the quickest to find (5 seconds) of my couple dozen old posts in this regard where I was attempting in vain as usual to penetrate the skulls of my many vituperative detractors on this site. Alas, I do not hold out much hope that this present post will be any more successful, but one must try. As I’ve been saying, I expect the “religious” folks will always hit me the hardest. And here they are. Anyway, on August 11th 2011, I made this, my then latest clear attempt with dear Elder Forlife (man I miss that guy). https://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/homosexuality_and_the_church?id=4688275&pageNo=6
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I find it all fascinating, how people can be so convinced that their particular church is THE TRUE CHURCH, and equally convinced that anyone that disagrees is a heretic. >>>[/quote] Lemme help Elder Forlife out… again. I DO NOT believe that my visible church is THE TRUE CHURCH. I believe my GOSPEL is THE TRUE GOSPEL and MANY CHURCHES have it. Even MANY churches with which I hold serious disagreements in some areas. One need not be a Calvinist to be saved… to be a Christian (but it sure helps =] ). Ya jist havta get that already. Please? How many times have I said that at least 500 local Detroit churches from lots of different denominations are working together to bring the Gospel to this dying city? Many of them are unfortunately not truly reformed (Calvinistic), but they are my brethren who worship the same God I do. It all comes out in prayer time.
The point is, this preoccupation with Calvinism being a prerequisite for salvation and everybody else being heretics is ALL you guys. I have never said or implied any such thing. Unlike my Orthodox friend here I consider heretics to be outside the sphere of God’s saving grace which is why I am very judicious with my use of that word. People can be in error and have the gospel. Heretics don’t have the gospel. Semantic difference? Perhaps, but that’s the orthodox protestant view That I very much agree with.[/quote] That should put that outta the way, but I know better by now. See this picture http://gregnmary.gotdns.com/pix/each.jpg taken in the Comerica park parking lot at a prayer rally in Detroit. I am in that picture running a video camera for my church. MOST, now did ya hear that? MOST, that means the majority, of the people at that meeting were NOT, now did ya hear that part too? NOT, that means the opposite of were, Calvinists. Most people there from a few hundred local churches were NOT NOT NOT (I’m really trying) Calvinists. Please see this page: SermonAudio - Sermons by Speaker Keep scrolling waaaaay down.
99% of the people in that picture and 100% of the men of God on that page, ranging hundreds of years would, I promise you, agree with EVERYTHING I’ve said in THIS thread. EVERYTHING. I am NOT NOT NOT talking about Calvinism. (Though it most assuredly WAS the predominant theological view of the colonies) If this is still in any way unclear I am simply not equipped to remedy that situation.
Now, onto JEaton’s unfortunate, but predictable shallow misuse of Jesus words about “judging” which he has taken from the shortest and least explanatory passage which is found in the gospel of Luke. Anybody who doesn’t want their modernistic Americanized view of this ruined should stop reading now.
In the 7th chapter of the gospel of Matthew ( Matthew 7 ESV ) Jesus says “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you”. The measure he is speaking of there is probably an agricultural reference that they would recognize. He’s telling them that just as the same measure should be used throughout a transaction of grain to ensure equity to both parties, don’t you use one measure for yourself and another for others. Don’t be a hypocrite in other words.
There is ONE measure and it is the Word of God. Judge by THAT. He’s also saying that YOU don’t get to judge. Like Thunderbolt does when he contradicts the word of God by stating that homosexuality is not sinful despite the clearest possible biblical declarations to the contrary. THAT is the kind of judgement Jesus is warning against. Our own as opposed to God’s.
Jesus goes on there to tell them to get the speck out of their own eye before worrying about the “log” in their brother’s eye. He doesn’t tell them not to worry about their brother’s speck, but only to make sure that they are above reproach themselves before doing so. He then warns them about giving what is holy to dogs or casting their peals before pigs. I don’t know how anybody’s supposed to know who they are without “judging”. In this same chapter He also tells them [b]"Enter by the narrow gate.
For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few"[/b]. Along with “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits.” Without using any judgement? How are they supposed to do that? In verses 21-23 He tells them about MANY who have called Him “Lord” whom He will cast out as those He NEVER knew. That sounds pretty “judgmental”.
In the 24th verse of the 7th chapter of the gospel of John, ( John 7 ESV ) after giving them a criteria by which TO judge and an example of how they were not doing it, he tells the people “Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” What? Jesus Christ telling people TO Judge? Yes. Same Greek word for “judge” used everywhere and about the same way btw. The 23rd chapter of the gospel of Matthew ( Matthew 23 ESV ) starting with verse 13 is one long 500 megaton nuclear blast against the religious leaders of His day. He is just pounding them for their manipulation of the Word of God and their superficial appearance of piety. In the modern western world we don’t even get the superficial appearance anymore.
Oh and btw. Getting back to Luke 6 for a second Jesus identifies “fruits” as what a man speaks. Verses 44-45. "For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, 44-for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. 45-The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. The next time somebody says “YOU DON’T KNOW MY HEART!!!” Oh yes I do and you know mine. Not the same way God does, but Jesus here says that fruit is born in the heart and that what you say shows me your heart. Speech is not ALL that fruit is, but it IS definitive.
In the 5th chapter of Paul’s 1st letter to the church at Corinth ( 1 Corinthians 5:1 ESV: It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife. ) he tells of a situation where a man was in a sexual relationship with “his father’s wife.” The precise nature and relation is irrelevant for this post. The point is it was a most damnable and horrific display of immorality as the apostle there says. They had taken his teaching on Christian liberty to terrible unintended extremes and were celebrating their own tolerance and open mindedness toward it. Paul rebukes them severely for their presumptuous arrogance.
He cries that they should be mourning instead and commands that they put him out and “deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord”. Not because he hated the man, but because he wanted him to be saved. He further decries the fact that the church is being polluted by this evil, represented as it often is by the illustration of leaven. He goes on starting in verse 9 to tell them that his previous instructions about not associating with immoral people did NOT mean those in the world. Because they’re everywhere, just like today, and you’d have to leave the world to avoid them.
He says not to associate with anybody CLAIMING TO BE A BROTHER who is living, like the man with his father’s wife, in overt unrepentant sin. He gives a quick list of representative sins (sexually immoral, greedy, swindlers, idolaters, revilers, drunkards) clearly designed to convey the idea that ANY known, public unrepentant sin is what he’s talking about. He then says they are not even to EAT with these people. Then he says in verse 12, please hear this, “For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you.”
Who is inside the church? He just told us. Those claiming to be brothers. Here we have the writer of at least 13 of the New Testament books telling a church that he founded not to worry about the corruption in the world, but you dern well better git yourselves about the business of judging those who claim to be one of us. This is (partly) the “righteous judgement” that Jesus was talking about.
John, who wrote 3 letters, the gospel of John and the book of Revelation, in his 1st letter, 3rd chapter, verses 4-10 says the following: [quote]4-Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6-No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7-Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8-Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9-No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10-By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. [/quote] Modern translations like the ESV I am here quoting, do a much better job of handling the Greek verbs than the King James which makes it sound like Christians never sin. (not so at all) Here we have John saying in a nutshell that the children of God and the children of the devil are readily discernible by whether they practice sin or not. The NASB renders it “By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious”.
Someone whose belief, life, speech, attitude and actions are habitually and unrepentantly in conflict with the biblical standard IS NOT A CHRISTIAN in anything like the historically accepted sense. I could go on for pages, but like I say, I doubt anybody, or very many anyway, will read even this much.
Every bible believing Christian will agree with this post. Not because I said it, But because it’s what the bible says. Let’s see who protests the loudest.