PASSION OF THE CHRIST

Off Topic
41

Whetu,

Yes, Jesus’ friends doubted Him, that is to be expected…I mean look at many people in this forum. It is human nature to doubt, we want to know the truth. Yet, there doubt was washed away when they saw the resurrected Christ. This gave them hope. This showed them that Jesus was the real deal. The disciples went from sorrowful/embarrassed men from evangelistic/radiant men when they saw the Lord. They knew Jesus was the Messiah and that they had hope after the grave…that is why 11 out of the 12 died a horrid death…there faith was real…

That is how we know this whole story is for real. Would all these men have died tortorous deaths for something they didn’t really believe to be 100% true?

Hallelujah!!!

42

Bazence,

That’s an overly simple way of interpreting what I wrote. I don’t think that someone is going in to the theater as a nice person and coming out a raving Jew hater. I do, however, think that this has the potential to ignite latent Jew hatred…sort of acting as a rallying point for those who already felt that way, or were on the fence. I feel it could have been filmed and edited in such a way to minimize those possibilities, but instead Gibson chose a different path.

Dude, that has got to be the most ignorant rant I’ve heard yet! It’s not like I’m bitching and moaning over minor deatils of how Jews were portrayed. However, the charge of deicide against me and my people is quite serious, especially without a greater context that takes the modern Church doctrine into account. Like I said to Sonny, the whole point of what I wrote is to get Christian folks to understand why Jews are so uptight about this.

You obviously didn’t get the point!

Look dude, I understand that you want to believe that nothing bad will come out of how Jews were portrayed in this flick, but that don’t mean it’s true. It only takes one fool to misread the message of Jesus to prove that argument out. It has, after all, happened in the past. And part of being an American is understanding that you don’t have the right to tell others to shut up just because you don’t agree with them.

Maybe you need to go back and re-read the parts of the Gospels that speak of understanding. Just a thought!

Peace, out!

43

BooneDoc,

Jews don’t believe the Old Testament because, from our perspective:

  1. It’s a poor translation of the original Hebrew texts that we still use to this day…we prefer the original document!

  2. It was re-written in the light of Jesus’ life, which is to say that it is biased in the spirit of Christianity, and that’s a no-no for Jews.

  3. The inclusion of non-offical texts like the book of the Maccabees.

What’s so sad about that? Maybe it would help if certain Christians stopped expressing “pity” for us poor, ignorant Jews because we don’t accept their beliefs. That would go a looooong way towards tolerance between the faiths.

Just an idea…

Peace, out!

44

"That is how we know this whole story is for real. Would all these men have died tortorous deaths for something they didn’t really believe to be 100% true? "

I’ve seen films of Buddhists setting themselves on fire. That’s pretty horrible. Does that make their beliefs 100% true?

45

Okay, hopefully this is my final summary for this thread:

The problem I (and most other Jews)have with this entire issue is that Jews and Judaism are defined by both Christians and Muslims in a negative manner…under Divine authority…in their respective sacred texts.

I see many Christians (and far too few Muslims) trying real hard to overcome those religion-inspired stereotypes of Jews, but the truth is that the stereotypes will always remain for whackos like Gibson to put forth on center stage. Sometimes that will result in violence, at other times intolerance and misunderstanding. Sometimes it may even go unnoticed. It will always be an issue for Jews.

A guard must always be kept up against the negative use of these stereotypes, by both Jews and Gentiles. Some of you, on these boards, clearly agree with this while others display an impatient and annoyed attitude to the Jewish reaction to this film. And that’s what tells me, as a Jew, that this will never end. Most, if not all of you, are decent folks…yet still there’s so much ignorance about the Jewish perspective 2000 years after this first became an issue. How does that bode for the those who are neither decent nor open-minded?

I wish Jews were not stereotyped by Christian and Islamic doctrine. I wish Jews could be approached by those two faiths without any pre-conceptions. Unfortunately, this is not to be, and on earth Jews are the ones who have had to suffer because of it.

The Crusades cost my people dearly. As did the Inquisition, countless expulsions, blood-libels and discrimination. The was all a result (direct or indirect) of Christian doctrine. Jews survived, but at a terrible price.

Today, most Muslims don’t trust Israel enough to make peace with it because their religion tells them that Jews are conniving schemers who will betray them at first chance. So they will cling to these Koranic notions…religion holds sway in that part of the world…defensively using the terror weapon to “survive” against the hate-filled Jews. As if a conflict over land isn’t bad enough! And so it goes…

I wonder how different Jewish history would be if Jews were never mentioned at all in the two dominant faiths of Humanity. But, for some, even that would be blasphemous for me to ponder…

Peace to all, out!

46

Bazence wrote:

I admit to being nit-picky on this one…but I’m home sick today, so I’ve got nothing better to do!

The land and country were known as Judea (literally meaning the land of the Jews), not Palestine in the time of Jesus.

The Romans, after defeating the last major Jewish rebellion in 136 CE, tried to stamp out the memory of Judea by renaming the country Palestina on their maps…a name which was meant as an insult to Jews, as it was derived from the name of the Philistines, who were the ancient enemies of the Israel and had been long since been extinct.

Yeah, that’s anal, but I couldn’t reist the correction!

47

Doogie:

Yes, some buddhists have burned themselves to death…and that obviously is very painful. For whatever reason they did do this, they were very sincere about it.

Just put yourself into the disciples situation. You are preaching Christ as being resurrected from the dead. You have actually seen Him! Many other people have actually seen Him. You preach this message and some people oppose you and want to kill you for it. They not only want to kill you, but kill you in a horrendous way. Now considering that all the disciples stuck to their guns, doesn’t that enhance the credibility of this whole story?

The point is:

These men saw Jesus, the Christ, resurrected from the grave and preached this message…knowing that people could kill the body…but not the soul!

Brian:
“Jesus gets away before he gets stoned in John 10)”

That is a correct statment, Brian. It wasn’t yet time for Jesus to die. His whole purpose on Earth was to die on the cross as the ultimate sacrifice to God for our sins.

On a side not, Brian, you say you don’t believe in the narratives of the gospel. That is a great leap of faith.

48

Webster’s defines “faith” as “firm belief in something for which there is no proof.” So Brian disbelieving the gospel isn’t a form of “faith”…it is merely disbelief. (And not a particularly surprising one, either, as it’s the position the majority of the world’s population would adopt on this topic.)

Having a legitimate disagreement is great, but no-fair bending our language in an attempt to make a point.

49

Biceps is right on the money.

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by him.
You can’t get to heaven on your own or by any means other than by faith in Jesus Christ. He is the sacrifice for all our sins. Once for all.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, - and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God -, not by works that no one should boast.” Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8&9

Billyboy

50

Boondoc Holiday writes:
“brian, good quote about jews not believing the OT…it took me a second, but yeah, sad but true.”

I’m not sure what you were thinking, but the point I was making is that to the Jews, there is no “Old Testament”. There is only the Jewish Bible, which doesn’t include the “New Testament” or the Book of Mormon, or anything else.

Biceps, IF there were 12 apostles and a certain number of them died while proselytizing for their faith, then I believe that they were executed because they believed the redemption was on hand and Jesus was the messiah, NOT because they saw him raised from the dead. Plenty of Jews died who thought that Bar Kochba (sp?, LittleJay) was the messiah…

Remember that one of the Gospels says that MANY DEAD WERE RESSURECTED WITH JESUS all around the place and it caused much commotion everywhere, yet the other 3 Gospels don’t mention this phenomenal occurence and neither does any document of history!

51

Question…Did Jews ever believe in animal sacrifice?

Me Solomon Grundy

52

Solomon…the rituals of the Temple included buying a sacrificial lamb (so that’s where that phrase comes from) or other animal and offering it as a sacrifice to take the place of their sins. See the story of Abraham and Issac for details on why this was done.

So…yes, there was animal sacrifice, although it’s only place was in the Temple, as performed by the priesthood according to the laws set forth in Leviticus.

Nowadays, we Jews call that animal sacrifice thing “dinner.” PETA would not be happy, but the protein content is undeniable!

You Solomon Grundy!
Me LittleJay!

53

Brian, I see you’ve done some reading! Yeah, Bar Kochba was the “stage” name of Shimon Ben Kosiba. Bar Kochba is Aramaic (not Hebrew) for “Son of the Star” which was an obvious reference to the belief by many Jews that he was the Messiah.

As you can tell, these days we Jews mostly look at him as a Jewish general who fought a good “William Wallace” type of a fight against Rome, but only ended up causing a great deal of pain and suffering for our people under the false belief that he was to be King!
His memory is most popular when Jews need to find an ancient hero who stood up and fought for his people and land.

54

Bosco:

Good point. If the definition of “faith” is “a firm belief in something that is not true,” then believing in the Bible, Jesus Christ, and God is not faith.

There is tons of evidence all around us that points to the Creator and that Jesus was really the Christ.

55

For Brian Smith and Jaystyles:

I don’t remember which one of you conveyed these thoughts and I’m not even trying to make you believe BUT the argument of the new testament being just a story, not accurate, etc. is a convenient non-believers opt-out clause. If you take the process of how historians measure the authenticity of any historical document (i.e. length of time after event before documentation, number of witnesses and written accounts, etc.), the bible, specifically the new testament, is one of the most historically accurate documents there is. So I still think it comes down to one question/argument regarding your beliefs on Jesus and it is this: “Was Jesus the actual Son of God as he stated repeatedly or was he a lunatic?”

56

randman,
My reply is that either (a) he did not say he was God incarnate; or (b) yes, he did say so and therefore, he was a (your word) “lunatic,” but perhaps still a nice, well-meaning, humanitarian one.
The accuracy of the Gospels by the standards of historians would be a long, complex discussion that I would rather not engage in right now.

57

Uhhhh…not sure if you’re being sarcastic or just mis-read my post, Biceps, but my point was that Brian’s or anyone else’s “non-belief” can’t be considered “faith.” By definition (again, Webster’s not mine) faith is a belief in an un-truth.

And, as Brian pointed out above, arguing the historic truth of Jesus’ ascension into heaven as the son of god might be a thread that’d last us until the next millenium. For you and other’s similarly inclined, it’s an accepted truth. For an even greater number, “proving” it would amount to a near impossibility, particularly given the very nature of the way the gospels began as an oral tradition and eventually, a long way later, were memorialized in written–often conflicting–accounts.

And you still have a greater burden to overcome…proving matters of the supernatural/immortal within the confines of our natural/mortal existence. So even if you COULD prove the historical aspect, you’ve still gotta prove the spiritual aspect…and I’m probably not alone in guessing most would see that as impossible.

Which is still fine. You get to believe what you wish, just like all the rest of us. But to claim that your beliefs are proven facts and everyone else’s valid skepticism is mere “faith” not only distorts the issue semantically, but also demeans everyone else’s beliefs.

I don’t hear anyone else trying to change or diminish your views…why not extend the same courtesies to everyone else?

Peace…

58

Randman,

I think the way you look at this whole thing lacks some needed perspective.

For example, I, as a Jew, am well aware that my beliefs are somewhat “crazy and silly” to someone who doesn’t accept the basic belief structure of the Monotheistic faiths. Many of the stories from the Tanakh (Jewish bible) require a sort of “suspended disbelief” because they just sound a little whacko to the hardcore secular types who need emperical evidence to believe anything.

I also accept the fact that Christians must look at Jews in a sort of “pitiful” way because we rejected their Messiah. Additionally, I know that Muslims view both Christians and Jews as somewhat “pitiful” because we both reject their revered Prophet, Mohammed and his teachings. I try to understand that without the knee-jerk “Fu@k you guys!” reaction kicking in.

In other words, all of our religious beliefs must seem loony to those who don’t share them. Go figure!

59

alright, didnt want to say anything but i will. this whole debate is stupid. also, Brian Smith wrote : "That was what happened with Passion Plays in the past and actually what might happen in France, Poland, Russia and throughout the Middle East. "
EXACTLY Brian, IN THE PAST. its not the same world as it was 100 years ago! and as far as the whole “jews werent the only ones that suffered” im giving that point to say that other people suffered and got over it. that is the way racisam or anything else ends, by forgiving and forgeting, not by screaming anti-semitisam every time someone who is not a jew portrays jews in a bad way. so calm down brian, drink some protein, lift some weights and it will all pass like the summer wind.
as for the palestine issue, i appologize for naming it wrong according to the time period. i knew it was judea, but i thought it was also palestine. no biggy. thank u all.

60

Admitt it, the movie sucks. How can anyone watch a movie they know the ending(not to mention the entire story) to before hand?