P, C, & Fat % Ratio for Fat Loss?

Nutrition
101

[quote]JuicyLucy wrote:
Well I’ve got a slight problem today.
My day when like this eating wise:
XX07.00 Wake up
07.30 60g whey protein, 1 yogurt, 8 oz fl goat milk, 1.34 oz banana
F8/27/63P 424 cal
XX08.00 - 10.30 matches
12.00 PWO Meal 5 oz filan(fish), 3.06 oz pasta, 1.5 cup g.beans, 9 oz pear
F3/110/52P 622 cal
XX14.00-18.00 tennis practice
16.00 60g whey protein, 10 oz g.milk, 3.5 Tbsp flax seeds, 1 yogurt
F23/24/72.5P
18.30 apple
XX19.00-19.45 run

Total: 1824 cal F35/199/189P

So now I’m planning to have a salad with olive oil and fish oil WITHOUT protein because I’ve burned it all up (=got over the limit).
Is it a good idea? Next time I have to split it in smaller portions. Did I have too many w.proteins?
[/quote]
With all the volume of work that you do from tennis practice, it seems that you might want to make your meals more PWO-ish, especially the 16:00 and the 18:00 meals. This means to have your meals more like the 2:1 starchy carb to protein ratio. This would also mean lowering your protein intake a little bit, instead of 60g at a sitting. Then after your run at night, have your P+F to get in your healthy fats.

In days like this, I’d think that it’s not bad to overeat a little bit and get the protein in, since you’re taxing your body so much. Make sure you get enough in your system for your body to recover.

Then again, what do I know? I’m just a novice at this like you. :slight_smile: Maybe Tampa-Terry would chime in with her opinions.

102

Lucy, it helps if you plan out what and when you’re going to eat the day before. You shouldn’t run high and low on protein from meal to meal. Hit your per-meal protein requirements. Going over on protein as much as you did means you’ll have to go low on another meal.

When I talk about running high and low on a given macronutrient, it’s more like going over on protein by 4g on one meal and running low 3g on the next … not 20 or 30g high or low.

By the time things are as out of whack as they are, your only choices are going over by quite a bit or depriving your body of the protein it needs every 3 to 4 hours … once again, by quite a bit.

My vote, though, would be that you consume the extra protein instead of just a salad. Your body needs dietary protein (meaning protein you eat) every 3 to 4 hours so that it doesn’t break down LBM for building and repairs.

103

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:

My vote, though, would be that you consume the extra protein instead of just a salad. Your body needs dietary protein (meaning protein you eat) every 3 to 4 hours so that it doesn’t break down LBM for building and repairs.

[/quote]
I have to plan better my meals. What happens is, for example, I’ve got a fish fillet then I weigh it and it works out more protein then I need in one meal and I eat it anyway.

How does the body “build and repair” with breaking down LBM? It’s like breaking down a wall of a house in order to build its roof. Makes no sense.

104

Lucy, re-read what I said. Your body needs protein every 3 to 4 hours so that it doesn’t break down LBM (muscle) for building and repair. Protein is used to makes some hormones. It’s used to make enzymes. There are a lot of protein structures in the body that need to be maintained. If you’re eating protein every 3 to 4 hours, the body is in POSITIVE NITROGEN BALANCE, which means that you are doing a good job of MAINTAINING LBM. Another way of saying it in laymen’s ters might be that there’s more protein going in than going out.

If we were talking about calcium, the storage depot for calcium is the bones. A little bit is broken down every day (damaged boned structures) and a little bit is built every day. So long as the two are in balance, you don’t have to worry about osteoarthritis.

With muscle (LBM), the muscle itself is the storage depot for protein. That’s why eating sufficient protein is important because if the body needs to make a repair and there are no readily available amino acids (of the type needed to make the repair), then the body will break down a little bit of muscle so that it has access to the amino acids it needs. Amino acids, of course, are the building blocks of muscle.

jthsiao, if Lucy’s goals were to maintain her current state of leanness and to teach her body to depend on carbs instead of fat for energy, or if her performance were suffering, that would be good advice. Her goals, however, are to reduce body fat and maintain athletic performance. That involves eating at a very SLIGHT caloric deficit, refilling glycogen sources AFTER activity, and then only as much as is necessary to get the job done.

A lot of athletes depend on carbs for energy. Think of marathon runners. The problem with a carb dominant diet is that the body will catabolize muscle when glycogen stores are low. And then there is the performance “boink” or “bonk,” aka “hitting the wall.” It happens around Mile 20 of the 26.2 mile marathon. It’s where muscle and liver glycogen stores are depleted and the runner is running on STUBBORNNESS, STRENGTH OF WILL and DETERMINATION.

In Lucy’s case, we’re trying to teach her body to utilize stored body fat during her practices. Doing so will benefit performance and body composition, both. But you’re right, for a tennis player she isn’t taking in a lot of carbs. In Lucy’s case it is being done with calculated intent.

Lucy, back to your problem, yes, plan out what you’re going to eat in advance. Don’t try to figure out on the fly. It’s like me needing 3 ounces of salmon to hit my number for a given meal. I, however, went out to eat at a restaurant with one of my friends, where they serve me a 9.8-ounce serving of salmon. My solution? Eat 1/3 of the salmon that is served, and save the other 2/3 for two more meals. Cook in volume. Cook multiple servings of whatever you’re making, and then measure out the portion sizes you need and put it into little air-tight containers or ZipLock bags. You’ll hit your numbers dead-on. (grin)

105

Thanks a lot, TT. Good explanation! I’ll act accordingly.

106

Lucy,
I have been on a similar plan to this for over a year now. What I do is write out my meals as menus at least a day in advance. Then I would cycle through those menus each week buying things for each one accordingly. That way each day I know I am hitting my numbers exactly. I don’t need to guess and add things in at the end of the day or worry that I went over. Then at the end of the week when I saw or didn’t see progress at least I knew it had nothing to do with my not following my plan exactly.

Once you make a few menus and get some simple easy meals that you like to eat, it makes it a lot easier. I have some “staple” meals that never change. My first meal is almost always a shake and meal #2 is almost always an omelet. Just the flavors or veggies change for each.

Meal #4 is almost always some kind of salad and then meal #6 is almost always cottage cheese. Now that only leaves 2 meals left to play with. Now that doesn’t seem so hard to come up with 2 meals a day. They don’t need to be complicated just simple, grilled chicken or fish with broccoli or cauliflower, or fruit depending on what meal it is.

Also, when you have this menu all planned you can plan your food you need to buy in larger quantities. You know you need a certain amount of ounces of chicken per meal so you buy 2 lbs of chicken knowing that is going to last you a certain amount of meals. Then you grill or roast the chicken and break it into 4 oz portions or whatever YOU need for your plan and then you have chicken portioned up and ready to eat.

Do the same for fish, instead of buying a piece of fish buy 2 lbs of fish. Then roast it all and break it into portions. That way you won’t be tempted to eat the whole piece. It makes it so much easier. You can also, if possible cook all the food you can in one or two days a week. That way you aren’t just cooking and cooking per portion for every meal everyday.

Here’s a sample of how I write out a menu:

[center]Sample Menu
Daily Requirements

For 6 meals:
Protein: 150 grams
25 grams protein per meal

Fat 60 grams
split up by:
20g from Lean Proteins
20g from Olive Oil
20g from Flax Oil

Brassica:
1 serving
Beans:
1/2 cup[/center]

7AM P+C
5 oz Mango blended with
37 grams Metabolic Drive Protein Shake

Protein: 25g
Fat: 1.5g
Fruit Calories: 90

10AM P+C
Omelet:
5 Egg whites= 20 g protein
1 whole egg= 6 g protein, 5 g fat
Sauteed Veggies(Onions, peppers, mushrooms, spinach)
9 oz Canteloupe

Protein: 26 g
Fat: 5 g
Fruit Calories: 90

1PM P+C
5.5 oz Apple
2.7 oz Chicken Breast Grilled

Protein: 25 g
Fat: 2.5 g
Fruit Calories: 84

4PM P+F+ Beans
Spinach Salad with
Tuna Steak Fresh 3.1 oz
1/2 cup canellini beans
Dressing with Flax/Olive oil combination 1 Tbsp plus 1 tsp champagne vinegar.

Protein= 25g
Fat from Protein= 2g
Fat other= 14 g

7PM P+F+ Brassica
Beef Tenderloin Steak 3.1 oz
Roasted Cauliflower
1 Tbsp Extra Virgin Olive Oil

Protein= 25g
Fat from Protein= 9 g
Fat other= 14 g

10PM P+F
6.25 oz low fat cottage cheese
Flax oil 1 Tbsp

Protein= 25 g
Fat from Protein= 1 g
Fat from other= 14g

Totals for the day:
Protein: 151 grams
Total Fats: 63
Fats from Proteins: 21 g
Fats from Other: 42 g

I hope that helps you get some ideas of how to write out your own meals and plan ahead. If you need any ideas about foods or combinations of foods just shoot me a PM. I have worked with Tampa-Terry for quite a while so we are both on the same page. I know I can speak for her when I say we both want to help you reach your goals and will help you as much as we can.

107

Very nice. Thank you so much.
The mistake I make is that I don’t plan ahead. I think I make it more difficult than it needs to be. After all it is only a question of a good routine. Once you’re in the groove everything flows.

I am slowly getting the structure of the meals. And then as you say everything becomes easier.
I don’t eat red meat so it should look like this.

shake + fruit
omelet+ fruit
fish + fruit
shake + flax seeds
sea food + beans + fish oil
fish + olive oil

Thanks again you two are such a great team.

108

[quote]JuicyLucy wrote:
Very nice. Thank you so much.
The mistake I make is that I don’t plan ahead. I think I make it more difficult than it needs to be. After all it is only a question of a good routine. Once you’re in the groove everything flows.

I am slowly getting the structure of the meals. And then as you say everything becomes easier.
I don’t eat red meat so it should look like this.

shake + fruit
omelet+ fruit
fish + fruit
shake + flax seeds
sea food + beans + fish oil
fish + olive oil

Thanks again you two are such a great team.
[/quote]

Hey that looks like a great outline. Now just fill in with the exact amounts and you have a super menu plan that you can just plug in each day and follow. You can add variety to that too just by changing the type of fish, shake, and veggies you put in your omelet. Makes your day of eating so much easier if you have your plan all worked out before you start.

109

As on 4/16/07…Fri 4/20/07…5/4/07…5/11

Calf: 15.7 in…the same /16.14/15.9
Thigh: 25 in …24.41/the same/24
Butt: 41.7 in …the same/the same/41.3
Waist: 31.5 in(the n. bit)… 30.7/31.1/30.3
Bicep 12.6 in …11.81/the same/12.2
Chest: 37.4 in …37.79/the same/the same

Weight: 168.8 lbs/168.2 lbs/169.8 lb/167.6

I haven’t been consistent at all this week. Yesterday I played an hour and a half long match. I played very well, I was sharp and fast. Today I had another one. The same thing: very fast and strong.

I’m happy with this week results ( measurements). I’m a little tired so my writing is a bit all over the place:)) Just ignore it!

FRI 1694 62F/179/111P
SAT 2454 100F/253/137P
SUN 2793 86F/313/216P
MON 2018 87F/174/147P …spot on
TUE 2245 89F/265/122P
WED 1998 77F/152/178P …spot on
THR 2394 64F/267/204P …spot on

Spot on days were MON, WED and THR.Even the protein is high on two of them. I calculated it wrong. An example of one of them:

THR:
XX8.30 Wake up
09.30 40g w. protein, 8 oz fl goat milk, 3.52 oz banana
12.00 5 whites, 1 egg, fresh spinach, 6.56 oz apple
XX14.30-16.00 match
16.00 5.28 oz(raw) cod, 1 cup green beans, 6.58 oz apple
18.30 1.56 oz bread, 40g w. protein, 3.5 Tbsp flax seeds, 8 oz fl goat milk, 1 oz goat cheese…I’m going to turn into a goat soon!!!
21.30 4 oz tuna(canned), salad, 2 Tbsp olive oil, 2.5 oz chick peas, yogurt, 1.5 Tbsp jam

I missed PWO meal at 16 o’clock. I didn’t have it with me. That’s why I had bread at 18.30 ( I was hungry ).

Thanks for any input you can give me.

Cheers!

110

Lucy, I’m really liking your results!!! Fat is coming off of the places I want to see fat coming off of … thigh, butt and waist. You’re maintaing (if not improving upon) performance. What’s cool about maintaining LBM and dropping FM is that you are improving your power to weight ratio. That’s what Lance Armstrong did when he prepared for the Tour de France. Maintaining muscle while dropping fat and scale weight results in more speed and more power.

Before too much longer, your coach and fellow players (and opponents!) are going to start seeing the changes, too … as you leave 'em behind in a cloud of dust!!! (big grin)

If you had JUST been using the scale as a measure of your progress, you might have thought it was painfully slow and that your diet wasn’t working. In reality, it’s working very well!!! And the reason it’s working so well is because of the precision with which you execute.

VERY good job, Lucy!!!

111

Thank you very much for your kind words. As I stated before I’m happy about the changes I’m going through. It’s working nicely.

And I have another question for you:

Today I ran 40 min. FLAT out. I was exhausted when I finished with legs trembling. Do I get PWO meal after that?

So far I’m including EVERYTHING I eat in my totals. That’s one of the reasons I don’t get it spot on. Should I stop trekking the green veggies as you’d suggested before?

112

Neither high-intensity cardio, nor endurance cardio get PWO nutrition until you’ve gone over the 1 hour mark. Reward yourself with some green tea over ice!!! Or if you’re due for a P+C meal, you can take your blueberries (fresh or frozen), give 'em a ride in the blender with an ice cube or two. Add Splenda or any other no-cal sweetener and maybe a squirt of lemon juice for a tall glass of blueberry lemonade. (grin)

There are ways to reward ourselves with food treats without bringing progress to a screeching halt. But as far as increasing the number of starchy carbs in your diet goes, not until performance starts to suffer or you’re losing weight too quickly.

You don’t need to count or track your fibrous green veggies. There will be days the number is high and days it runs low. Listen to your body and consume all you need to, to manage hunger.

113

Thanks for your great advice (I specially liked that one about the green tea;) )

I’ve got another question:

Today I’ve eaten well the first two P+C meals in the morning( at 10.00 and 13.00 then I was out and didn’t bring anything with me. So I had very little protein, some salad, etc.After I returned home, at 20.00, I should had have continued with missed P+C meal or P+F ? And do I try to eat all 4 meals of the day or just continue eating every 3 hours?

114

I use P+C meals as place holders for a serving of fruit. So if you were due for a serving of fruit and missed it, just get it in at whatever seems like a good spot. If you were due for a P+F meal, just get your fat in later that day or the following day.

In other words, make up anything you miss out on.

There will be little deviations or break downs here and there, life being what it is. Just make your best decision at the time and don’t look back. The only reason for giving deviations and detours any further consideration is just for the purpose of trying to plan things out a little better in the future.

115

And do I try to eat all 4 meals of the day or just continue eating every 3 hours?

I don’t think I answered your question above, but maybe that’s for the best because I’m not sure I understood it. Could you try again? (grin)

116

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:

And do I try to eat all 4 meals of the day or just continue eating every 3 hours?

I don’t think I answered your question above, but maybe that’s for the best because I’m not sure I understood it. Could you try again? (grin)[/quote]

The question was: If I eat 2 P+C meals the third one should be P+C meal,right? Even if you’re eating it 10 hours later?

And I think I got the answer:
Yes, the next meal should be P+C and then I should be continuing P+F, etc …

I thought that the reason for eating P+C meals in the morning/noon was that body is not so insulin sensitive as in the evening/night.

If someone works out twice a day they should get 2 PWO meals, right?

I know I’m probably killing you with my questions. I’m just so curious.

Thank you for your time.

117

Well, I’m really hoping that you’re never in a position that you have to go 10 HOURS without food!!! (grin)

So yes, even if things get a bit jumbled up or your plan falls apart, try to get everything in by the end of the day. Even though it’s less than ideal, if you miss a required item and can’t get it in by the end of the day, have it the following day.

118

I missed some of your questions …

I thought that the reason for eating P+C meals in the morning/noon was that body is not so insulin sensitive as in the evening/night.

When you sleep through the night and haven’t eaten, liver glycogen is low and the body is very sensitive/responsive to insulin. That’s a good thing.

As the day progresses, you become LESS sensitive to insulin and any carbs that are taken in are more likely to be stored as fat. So as a general rule, it’s best to consume carbs at the time of day your body is better able to utilize 'em (i.e., earlier in the day). That’s why as the day progresses, we switch over to P+F eating. Your body needs good fats, too, and later in the day is the best time to take 'em in. Fat doesn’t elicit an insulin response. Protein elicits more of an insulin response than fat, but less than carbohydrates. Carbs (depending) on the type) elicit the greatest insulin response of the 3 macornutrients.

If someone works out twice a day they should get 2 PWO meals, right?

If the person is bulking, yes. If the person is cutting, then I’d probably take the starchy carbs in the PWO meal and cut them in half. Resistance training is sometimes divided into AM and PM sessions in advanced trainees, but it generally doesn’t go much beyond one hour in duration cumulatively.

And no, you’re not bothering me or killing me with your questions. (grin) Questions are good. If you understand why you’re doing things and something unexpected comes up, you’re able to make a good decision. If you follow what someone tells you to do blindly (without understanding) and something unexpected comes up, then you don’t know what to do!

Questions are good! And in your case, you actually ask really good ones! (grin)

119

Today’s Friday = measuring time!

As on 4/16/07Fri 4/20/07.5/4/07.5/11.5/18

Calf: 15.7 in /16.14/15.9/the same
Thigh: 25 in …24.41/24/24.8
Butt: 41.7 in/41.3/the same
Waist: 31.5 in… 30.7/31.1/30.3/30.7
Bicep 12.6 in …11.81/12.2/the same
Chest: 37.4 in …37.79/37.4

Weight: 168.8 lbs/168.2 lbs/169.8 lb/167.6/167.5
Though week. I played two matches wasn’t able to run as much as I normally do. Numbers were good. Slowly getting there…
I was going to ask if anybody knows any good recipe for ice cream. Something simple, low everything “bad” and high the “good” stuff. It’s for my cheat day ;))

120

Lucy, don’t worry about healthful ice cream. Go out and get what you really want and ENJOY yourself. Have Godiva chocolate if you want. Go to an ice cream shop and go down the line tasting everything! (grin)

The thing I’m looking forward to this week is blueberry pancakes with real maple syrup! (sigh) & (grin)

Good job, L-Girl!!!