I just had a comment regarding Testicular atrophy. 23 years ago, when I was 18, I had a cyst surgically removed from my right tesiticle. The Doctor told me that everything would be fine, except the right testicle was completely dead. He went on to ensure me that I would be fine with only one working testicle. I have never suffered any ill affects. Furthermore, I have always had all the signs of high Test levels, both androgenic and anabolic. Although, I’ve never had any actual tests done to know for sure if my levels were affected. I can honestly say that no one would ever accuse me having low test levels, LOL. Anyway, my point is that after 23 years my right “dead” testicle is the excact same size as my “live” left testicle. Having said that, I can’t see how a 10-15 week Test cycle would cause my testicles to shrink. Since I’ve seen no shrinkage in a completely dead testicle.
[quote]Spartan300 wrote:
I just had a comment regarding Testicular atrophy. 23 years ago, when I was 18, I had a cyst surgically removed from my right tesiticle. The Doctor told me that everything would be fine, except the right testicle was completely dead. He went on to ensure me that I would be fine with only one working testicle. I have never suffered any ill affects. Furthermore, I have always had all the signs of high Test levels, both androgenic and anabolic. Although, I’ve never had any actual tests done to know for sure if my levels were affected. I can honestly say that no one would ever accuse me having low test levels, LOL. Anyway, my point is that after 23 years my right “dead” testicle is the excact same size as my “live” left testicle. Having said that, I can’t see how a 10-15 week Test cycle would cause my testicles to shrink. Since I’ve seen no shrinkage in a completely dead testicle.[/quote]
well It’s highly doubtfull that your testicle is completely dead. If this were the truth it would have been completely removed, as dead tissue is not left in the body during surgical procedures.
[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
Yah, no test needed, since your main cyce was test only, you can get away with just using the masteron IMO untill the real taper begins.
As for the rest of the cycle, if you want to use it, just evenly spread out the doses.[/quote]
Thanks!
I decided that I?ll have to wait a bit to start the cycle though… need to shed a few pounds of fat first and get my nutrition back on track 
… been a bit sloppy the last few weeks…
bump for some good reading
COLD-TURKEY CAMP:
There are some who say that “even one Dianobol tablet (I know your study talks about Test alone…but bear w me) could provide the equivalent of a full day’s androgen supply for the average male, tapering from five to four to three will accomplish relatively nothing.
In the three or four weeks the athlete will spend doing this, his body is
still reading “ANDROGEN OVERLOAD” and will not attempt to restore the output of testosterone.”
TAPERING CAMP:
T1gNaL1 vouches for his cycle-backed 5-week tapering schedule, coming from which he kept nearly all his gains after a 17 week dosing of Test Tren and D-bol.
I trust that his results are legitimate proof that tapering paid off, at least in this one case.
[quote]T1gNaL1:
“however the real benefit to tapering is that you end up administering
such a low does of test that your body starts producing natural testosterone but is still being supplemented by the small dose of exogeneous test. For example if your bodies natural level of testosterone at homeostasis is 50mg a week and you are injecting 30mg a week your body will begin producing testosterone in order to try and fill that 20mg gap. So instead of cutting off all sources of test
and letting your body struggle to bring levels back to normal you are
easing it into it. I hope that makes sense.” [/quote]
This is sketchy for reasons I will elaborate on later.
The premise here is that HPTA will start registering the decline in exo
test spontaneously enough to expunge any lapse between the point of
suppression and the point of restoration. Hold this thought for later.
I want to agree with P22 that “shifting dependency” to other drugs like HCG may indeed increase lapse time during which precious test
recuperation could have set into motion.
But the alternative being what - weeks of tapering with low doses of test in hopes of HPTA registering the slow decline of exogenous test to kick start its own production. Right? Let us indeed presume that the HPTA registers this. So far so good.
Agree
Again agree.
Agree as well.
If you havent deduced already theres something flawed here:
- A crash-less transition between the time of your cessation of your primary 10-week or whatever week cycle of high exo test and the time HPTA resumes its indigenous production to cover the differential between the taper level and your native level is slightly illusory.
The length of the crash period is obviously proportional to the capacity
of the HPTA to register the signalling of low test levels (lower than native amounts) and more importantly acting on those signals. The quicker the HPTA registers the signals the smaller the crash.
- The HPTA is made to register dip differential signals between
exogenous test levels and native test levels for a period of four or five weeks . For what? lay idle for the first five and to spontaneously spring into action in an off-the-cuff manner and resume production in the sixth week.
By dip differential I mean this:
say native test level is 50 mg/ml and you start tapering from 500 mg/ml
(like T1gNaL1)
|Endo| |Exo| |Dip Differential|
50 - 500 = - 450 mg/ml in the first week after cessation
50 - 400 = - 350 mg/ml in the second week after cessation
50 - 300 = - 250 mg/ml ‘’ " " " third week
so on and so forth until you hit a taper level of 50 or lower when HPTA
starts registering regular or lower levels to kick off production again.
Right?
so this is what P22 means by
[quote]no, not if your taper is gradual enough, once the administration of test is less then what your body’s physiological needs are, it will begin to produce enough to pick up the slack.
[/quote]
If we are owners of such hyper-responsive HPTAs then why not go from 500 mg/ml to 45 mg/ml in the 11th week so that the HPTA haven gotten the idea and marching orders can go to work right then.
by no means am i slinkin into the cold turkey camp. i just dont see tapering effective for those reasons P22 and T1gNaL1 have sugessted. It might work owing to some other reason but not these.
People lived on O2 before it was ever discovered and labeled as the gas for our sustanence. This is on those lines.
[b]
The tapering method appeals to me but much depends on the triggering mechanism of the HPTA contingent on the introduction of various levels of available test
[/b]
what boroughbred just explained is exactly what I was thinking, and with that in mind I’m doing my own revamped taper protocol.
BUMPED
prisoner how does this taper look for my cycle? I dont know if i deacreased the doages right, along with armidex
weeks 1-12 500mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex ED
weeks
13 100mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex EOD
14 100mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex EOD
15 100mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex EOD
16 100mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex EOD
17 100mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex EOD
18 100mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex EOD
week
19 75 mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex E3D
20 75 mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex E3D
21 50 mg Test-E
22 50 mg Test-E
23 25 mg Test-E
25 25 mg Test-E
Hard to believe the amount of attacks that go back and forth when this comes up. Prisoner’s approach makes logical sense. I myself have used low doses of d’bol first thing in the morning for a month or so(10 - 15mg) and have had great success coming off of relatively light cycles (500 to 800mg of gear/wk).
Everyone responds a little bit different to almost everything. Some people hate Winstrol and some love it. If you feel hcg works for you - great - use it. If tapering works - great - use it.
All I can go by is my own experience on how my own body responds to various drugs and what amounts. Why this stirs up so much crap is baffling.
Prisoner took his experience and shared it to help others. If you don’t like it then don’t use the advice.
[quote]talbotko wrote:
prisoner how does this taper look for my cycle? I dont know if i deacreased the doages right, along with armidex
weeks 1-12 500mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex ED
weeks
13 100mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex EOD
14 100mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex EOD
15 100mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex EOD
16 100mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex EOD
17 100mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex EOD
18 100mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex EOD
week
19 75 mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex E3D
20 75 mg Test-E 0.25mg armidex E3D
21 50 mg Test-E
22 50 mg Test-E
23 25 mg Test-E
25 25 mg Test-E[/quote]
My opinion on the adex/femara has changed. I now believe you should taper by the middle of the waiting period.
If problems with E, use of a SERM is a better approach going forward than the dex or letro as it doesn’t cause any receptor up regulation. The E problems will be self limiting anyways as you will no longer be on doses that will produce supraphysiological levels of it. - especially if you were on an aromatase inhibitor (adex, or femara) leading up to the waiting period.
I will say that I also believe that doing HCG regularly during the cycle is fine, however you have to stop it when you start the waiting period to allow you body to ‘reset’ itself. The six weeks in the waiting period should be ample time to do that.
P
What would change in the protocol if propionate was used instead of enanthate?
I already posted this a few days back on another thread but I though might as well put it here. It’s about my own Test Taper experience.
I did a shorter version. 3 weeks at 100mg and 3 at 80, 60, 40. Why? Because I was only doing 300mg of Test E and 300mg of EQ a week with Aromasin 0,2mg EOD - and because I thought I’d run out of gear (I didnt). Oh and to be honest I dont like to pin myself that much and wanted it over with. I used 27 slin pins for the taper.
Bottomline: it’s the best PCT I ever did! I’m three weeks away from my last shot, which means 9 weeks from my full on cyle, and my bodyweight is the same! For me, it’s really uncharted territory. I usually lose a lot post cycle. I’m a little softer, so I’d say I gained 2 pounds of fat and lost 2 of lean mass, but that is still pretty good compared to my past experiences.
I used Clomid during the 100mg weeks. It was evident I was getting back to “normal” at that dose with the Clomid. The boys are at full size, libido was good (though not as while on cyle, man I was horny!), and while I suddenly felt 15 years older, there’s no depression or whatnot. I only felt off cycle during the taper, and I feel the same now, even better, now that I’m totally off.
I had bad acne on the upper back and shoulders, something I never had before. I dont know if it was the clomid, or just that cold weather set in and the skin didnt get sun exposure anymore.
Anyways, to me it’s evident Prisoner’s test taper is a great contribution to the game and I thank him for it!
Actually I have gotten bad acne from using clomid during pct before as well.
I always have some acne problems during pct, but never as bad as when I use to do the cold turkey pct - that was bad.
[quote]sawadeekrob wrote:
P
What would change in the protocol if propionate was used instead of enanthate?[/quote]
divide your weekly dose into three shots per week.
prisoner do you think I could get away with not using armidex at all during cycle (considering I’m only using 1/2 gram of test with possibly anadrol 50 mg for jumpstart) and instead just have some nova on hand for sides
thanks alot Bushy I will diffidently invest in some adex
P22,
With Test Cyp would you have a longer waiting period?
B101:
The Cyp ester is simmilar enough to the enanthate ester that there should not be any noticeable difference.
Talbotko: Anadrol doesn’t aromatise, it exerts direct influence at the Estrogen receptor site, so you need nolvadex to combat gyno for this steroid, not arimidex
[quote]Prisoner wrote:
B101:
The Cyp ester is simmilar enough to the enanthate ester that there should not be any noticeable difference.
Talbotko: Anadrol doesn’t aromatise, it exerts direct influence at the Estrogen receptor site, so you need nolvadex to combat gyno for this steroid, not arimidex[/quote]
Important point Pris. How would you incorporate the nolva for an oral drol/win run, if you so chose to do? I haven't had any problem before due to the canceling out effects of the synergy between the two, but if something came up, how and what would you do?
ToneBone