Overtraining For Muay Thai?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

What about a striking art that allows clinching though (like Muay Thai)? In boxing sure, every time you get close/tangled up with your opponent and in a position where strength would be an advantage the ref breaks you up. But in Thai boxing (especially under rule sets that allow liberal use of clinching or even throws like San Shou) where you are allowed to clinch, strength can be a great asset.[/quote]

I know what you’re talking about, and as near as I can tell it can be an advantage in that sport, sure.

Enough of an advantage that you lift every day? Nope.

Maybe enough that you spend one, MAYBE two days lifting at the absolute most, in abbreviated sessions last no longer than 45 mins and concentrate on only the big lifts (as you said.)

The necessity of weightlifting for striking arts is vastly overrated on this board in general, but for MT, given the rules allowed, I can see it.

My recommendation to “stop weightlifting” is based on the fact that this kid seems to be training his balls off for four hours a day. Weightlifting is the LEAST necessary of the things he’s doing, especially considering he’s still going to school.

22

Even clinching is pretty technical in Muay Thai. And I’ve told my Muay Thai coach I was weightlifting and he told me to stop and to look at Anderson Silva he has no muscle and is one of the best strikers in MMA.

I’m not fully convinced weightlifting is bad for striking. I know sprinters weightlift and they’re all about running as quickly as possible. There has to be some way to weightlift without it causing your muscles to tighten up and slow you down. At least that’s what I’ve heard it does. But at the same time we do a lot of pushups and squats and I don’t see how those are suppose to be better than doing bench or squats with weights. So I’m kind of torn.

Before I use to weightlift in the morning and do Muay Thai in the evening. I was doing a strength training program 5x5, started light and slowly worked up. And once I started to squat about 230 pounds, I started having trouble later in Muay Thai class. We’d just warm up with a couple of minutes jogging and my legs would get stiff and heavy and I’d start sweating profusely (dripping everywhere) and I’d drag through class with no energy. That’s when I talked to my coach and he told me to quit, so I did. But I started recently doing the weightlifting after Muay Thai class again. But I don’t always get to it. Depends on how hard the previous class was. I can’t tell if it’s helping or hurting though.

23

I weigh 150lbs and have thrown around powerlifters in clinching. The best way to develop strength for clinching is (surprise) hard clinching sessions with strong clinchers. I feel that the main purpose of strength training for fighters should be injury prevention, to allow them to train at their sport as much as possible.

24

[quote]JonnyTMT wrote:
I weigh 150lbs and have thrown around powerlifters in clinching. The best way to develop strength for clinching is (surprise) hard clinching sessions with strong clinchers. [/quote]
I am going to unapologetically sidetrack a bit:
I have been told that the actual Thais have a much “softer”/technique intensive clinch game/style than the western “Thai Boxers”. Something looser, more relaxed, a lot more similar to Judo/good wrestling than the death grip and knee type method I see being taught in the states. Is this true in your experience?

[quote]
I feel that the main purpose of strength training for fighters should be injury prevention, to allow them to train at their sport as much as possible.[/quote]

This, 100X this. Any injury/weak link you bring into the ring or onto the mat is an assist for your opponent. Make your opponent earn your disabilities. If he wants your knees and hips to be unstable he needs to kick and knee them to get them there. If he wants your shoulders fucked up he needs to do it himself.

That said I am of the opinion that the closer a striking sport/art is to Olympic fencing, “all touches are equal”, the less it will benefit from weight room strength. So amateur boxing hits diminishing returns really quick, pro boxing a bit later, Thai boxing or full contact Karate later still, and sports with a lot of grappling/body contact it is almost always a plus.

Technique lets you be more efficient with your strength so more gets done with less. I have been on both sides of the strength beats technique and technique overcomes strength scenario. I will also point out that a lot of clinching is isometric/relatively static, and thus highly joint angle/body position specific. This means that both the Supertraining, fantastic book, worshipers and the guys who say more clinch work should yield a “stronger” clinch should be in agreement.

Regards,

Robert A

25

jacksmithbrew,

As already noted your diet is a bit sparse in calories. As a growing 16 year old you likely have a pretty high metabolism and caloric need. Adding fight training and weights raises it even further. Adding more eggs and a piece of fruit, I like bananas because they are fast, or a protein shake to breakfast would be a good start. Unless you see a fat kid in the mirror more calories are likely to your benefit long term.

As far as weight training:

Are you following this lifting schedule because of school? Is it a class?

I will never tell a 16 year old not to weight train because at your age I get that there can be an almost overwhelming desire for beach muscles. I do not mean that as a shot. High school is a bitch, but it is a more kind bitch if you are good looking.

I am partial to Starting Strength for new lifters. I mean the whole thing. Buy the book and the DVD’s. It is 3 times a week and should be run until gains in strength stop. My main reason for preferring it over other programs is that if followed it teaches enough technique that the squat, deadlift, bench press, standing overhead press, and power clean can be trained in other programs without much fear of acute injury/long term over use injury. Others on this board will make great points on fighter/athletes not needing to bench. Their points are valid, but almost all athletes are judged/forced to bench, so doing it in a manner that does not promote injury is my major point.

Almost everyone thinks they can do the basic exercises, but without proper training/coaching it is very easy to do them “not quite good enough” and wind up with injuries down the road. Coach Rippetoe really did a good job of creating a beginner’s program that prevents this.

Hope this was helpful.

Regards,

Robert A

26

second on start with “Starting Strength” it’s a solid program with proven results

27

thanks for the advice

28

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
You’re going to have to explain that some more Sento. I am not seeing the correlation, other than the fact that added weight does indeed make things harder to do.

Which would be fine if his MT gloves weighed 55 lbs…but they don’t, so who cares?[/quote]

My point is that, greater relative strength will lead to greater speed (provided that the weight stays the same and technique/mechanics are also being developed) and more power. Yes, things like relaxation of the antagonistic muscles plays a large part, and no I’m not arguing that a powerlifter who walks in off the street is going to hit harder than someone who’s been practicing punching technique for 10 years.

But, given that technique is the same, the stronger person is generally going to be faster, and hit harder than the weaker person because their body requires less effort to manipulate than the weaker person’s. This can also improve endurance, coordination, balance, and flexibility.

29

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

What about a striking art that allows clinching though (like Muay Thai)? In boxing sure, every time you get close/tangled up with your opponent and in a position where strength would be an advantage the ref breaks you up. But in Thai boxing (especially under rule sets that allow liberal use of clinching or even throws like San Shou) where you are allowed to clinch, strength can be a great asset.[/quote]

I know what you’re talking about, and as near as I can tell it can be an advantage in that sport, sure.

Enough of an advantage that you lift every day? Nope.
[/quote]

That I completely agree with. If you goal is improved combative skill, you’d be silly to spend so much energy on non specific strength training/in the weight room. Maybe if you really felt like your strength was so ridiculously low that it was seriously holding you back, then I could see putting the skills training on maintenance mode and dedicating a block of time to serious strength training. But I think you’d have to be pretty technically proficient for that to be warranted.

[quote]
Maybe enough that you spend one, MAYBE two days lifting at the absolute most, in abbreviated sessions last no longer than 45 mins and concentrate on only the big lifts (as you said.)

The necessity of weightlifting for striking arts is vastly overrated on this board in general, but for MT, given the rules allowed, I can see it.

My recommendation to “stop weightlifting” is based on the fact that this kid seems to be training his balls off for four hours a day. Weightlifting is the LEAST necessary of the things he’s doing, especially considering he’s still going to school.[/quote]

I agree that he seems to be spending more energy on weight training than he is likely getting benefit from. But, he is also very young, and it’s possible that he might actually be able to recover from that type of workload (given that he still is in school) provided that his nutrition was actually sound.

Then again, he is starting a thread about how he thinks he might be getting over-trained, so your analysis is probably right on.

30

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
You’re going to have to explain that some more Sento. I am not seeing the correlation, other than the fact that added weight does indeed make things harder to do.

Which would be fine if his MT gloves weighed 55 lbs…but they don’t, so who cares?[/quote]

My point is that, greater relative strength will lead to greater speed (provided that the weight stays the same and technique/mechanics are also being developed) and more power. Yes, things like relaxation of the antagonistic muscles plays a large part, and no I’m not arguing that a powerlifter who walks in off the street is going to hit harder than someone who’s been practicing punching technique for 10 years.

But, given that technique is the same, the stronger person is generally going to be faster, and hit harder than the weaker person because their body requires less effort to manipulate than the weaker person’s. This can also improve endurance, coordination, balance, and flexibility.

[/quote]

I just don’t agree with that assessment about strength. I think that it’s likely that there’s not a huge difference between what Manny Pacquaio and Juan Diaz bench press, but there’s a massive difference in their punching power.

You know my opinion about punchers - they’re born, they’re not bred and they’re not developed - and if you can crack, you can crack no matter how strong you are in the weightroom. And if you can’t, no amount of weight training or powerlifting is going to help you aside from MAYBE a minimal gain at the very start.

I really would like to see some proof of this (and I’m not breaking your balls), because everything - and I mean EVERYTHING - that I’ve seen in the boxing gym doesn’t point to it.

31

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
You’re going to have to explain that some more Sento. I am not seeing the correlation, other than the fact that added weight does indeed make things harder to do.

Which would be fine if his MT gloves weighed 55 lbs…but they don’t, so who cares?[/quote]

My point is that, greater relative strength will lead to greater speed (provided that the weight stays the same and technique/mechanics are also being developed) and more power. Yes, things like relaxation of the antagonistic muscles plays a large part, and no I’m not arguing that a powerlifter who walks in off the street is going to hit harder than someone who’s been practicing punching technique for 10 years.

But, given that technique is the same, the stronger person is generally going to be faster, and hit harder than the weaker person because their body requires less effort to manipulate than the weaker person’s. This can also improve endurance, coordination, balance, and flexibility.

[/quote]

I just don’t agree with that assessment about strength. I think that it’s likely that there’s not a huge difference between what Manny Pacquaio and Juan Diaz bench press, but there’s a massive difference in their punching power.

You know my opinion about punchers - they’re born, they’re not bred and they’re not developed - and if you can crack, you can crack no matter how strong you are in the weightroom. And if you can’t, no amount of weight training or powerlifting is going to help you aside from MAYBE a minimal gain at the very start.

I really would like to see some proof of this (and I’m not breaking your balls), because everything - and I mean EVERYTHING - that I’ve seen in the boxing gym doesn’t point to it.[/quote]

It can be tough to provide proof of such things because it is sort of “the chicken or the egg type” of thing in many cases.

There is a guy who trains at one of the schools I am affiliated with who is a powerlifting/bench pressing in particular champion. When he first came in he would pretty much push his punches. After a few months though, and learning the importance of relaxation and speed to punching power, he has become one of the hardest punchers I’ve ever felt.

The problem though is that it’s pretty impossible to prove whether he was just born with the genetics to be a hard puncher and a great bench presser, or whether the training for the powerlifting/strength made him a great puncher once he learned the proper mechanics. In my opinion it’s probably a bit of both in most cases.

I can only speak from my own personal experience with punching power and say that when my strength goes up in the weight room, so does my punching power, and when it goes down, so does my punching power. I also feel faster, more explosive, and more easily able to handle other people’s pressure/strength when I’m stronger. There is a point of diminishing returns though, and I’ve definitely put too much emphasis on the strength training at times, to the detriment of my skill practice or even cardio/endurance. So, I’m still in agreement with you that he shouldn’t be in the gym every day doing bodybuilding workouts.

32

See, what I’ve realized, over time, is that while we (especially those of us who used to be more in the strength training world) would poo-poo the old school boxing trainers and their knowledge base and point to the newest ideas, or the newest studies, to prove them wrong.

Everyone always says the same thing - “Boxing trainers still have a loongg way to come in terms of strength and conditioning.”

“You run five miles every morning?? Don’t do that, just do barbell complexes/bear crawls with planes attached/wind sprints up Mount Ranier/exoplometrical run/pushup sequences. THAT will give you conditioning!”

or

“Weightlifting slows you down!? Nonsense! Sprinters and pilots and champion shuttle runners all weightlift! So should you!”

or

“Chad Waterbury says that doing explosive pushups with six and a half strippers on your back will make you knock out a horse!”

But what I’ve figured out is that while boxing coaches and trainers may not have any idea why shit makes their fighters react like they react, they do know about the consequences.

They may say, “Don’t weightlift, it will make you bulky and slow.” And people laugh. But you know what? Maybe it’s not the extra muscle that makes you slow (although it will make you bulky), but it’s the time and energy you spend actually lifting that makes you slow.

So you lift hard on Monday and you come into the gym on Tuesday, and Wednesday, and you’re punching like a cunt. Why? Because your muscles are still tired from lifting, and your CNS can’t handle the 45 minutes of lifting and then the 12 or 15 rounds of skillwork AND the morning runs.

So a boxing coach looks at that and says, “Hey, that shit makes you slow” because that’s what they see. And they’re not REALLY wrong, just they’re looking at it from the back to the front instead of the front to the back.

And punching power to me fits in as well. A lot - not all, but many - coaches will say punchers are born, not made, and I have to agree.

Sento, if your experience differs, maybe it just affects everybody differently, I don’t know. But the dudes who have world class power for their weight are not seen in the weightroom, and when they are, often times they’re doing higher reps with a lighter weight (contrary to how we might think they should train. Me included).

My coach, personally, has never told his fighters to weightlift, and he’s got a couple guys that punch like a mule at 147 and easily have world class power at this point. So I’m just not convinced.

Punching power is poorly understood, and all I can go by is the empirical evidence, and that, to me doesn’t point to lifting as really helping at all. And if I was stepping in the ring, that’s the FIRST thing I would ditch in favor of more skillwork.

Punching power, to me, is just technique, range, and transferring your weight into it. Once that’s taught, weightroom strength just doesn’t compute in.

It’s like that “farm boy” strength. I have buddies that couldn’t do shit in the weightroom, but if you have an electrical box that needs to get off the ground, they can lift it. Doesn’t make sense, but it’s just there in front of you.

This rant was not aimed at anyone in particular, I’m just throwing it out there.

33

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]JonnyTMT wrote:
I weigh 150lbs and have thrown around powerlifters in clinching. The best way to develop strength for clinching is (surprise) hard clinching sessions with strong clinchers. [/quote]
I am going to unapologetically sidetrack a bit:
I have been told that the actual Thais have a much “softer”/technique intensive clinch game/style than the western “Thai Boxers”. Something looser, more relaxed, a lot more similar to Judo/good wrestling than the death grip and knee type method I see being taught in the states. Is this true in your experience?
[/quote]

The Thai’s have an even stronger death grip! haha However, the thing is that most westerners only know one lock (both hands behind the head of the opponent). MMA guys even call this lock the “Thai plum”. I HATE it when I hear people use this term. “Plum” in Thai simply means “grappling”. Muay Thai has dozens of different locks, and if you look at a fight from Thailand you will barely ever see a fighter get a lock with both his hands on the back of his opponents neck, because this position is really easy to avoid if you know how to clinch properly.

When a westerner tries to clinch with a Thai fighter and just tries to get his hands behind the Thai’s head, he will usually find himself getting thrown down a lot. Thai’s utilize a lot of different locks that control the opponents upper arms, and also use a lot more throws than the majority of westerners.
.

34

My two cents. Having competed in boxing, kickboxing (not mt rules, and olympic taekwondo… I personally have seen many advantages from weight training.

It is not the magic cure that some try to say “what weight program will improve my punching power”, because it ALWAYS takes a back seat to technique. If you are competing on a seasonal schedule such as boxers or tkd guys, you could periodize. If you are fighting fairly consistantly, 2 days a week, bare bones minimum. sq, dl, clean, and overhead press. I would strongly encourage pullups, rows and glute ham raises as the power comes from the back of your body.

I generally have much more power and speed than people in my weight class and it has only gotten better. From a fighters perspective thought it is erroneous to get caught up in gym room numbers. I know Ross Enemiat is a big proponent of strength training as well…

Muay Thai seems to develop alot of the strength qualities through the workouts themselves. Clinch work, similar to Judo randori will build tremendous strength as is.

35

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:
Even clinching is pretty technical in Muay Thai. And I’ve told my Muay Thai coach I was weightlifting and he told me to stop and to look at Anderson Silva he has no muscle and is one of the best strikers in MMA.

I’m not fully convinced weightlifting is bad for striking. I know sprinters weightlift and they’re all about running as quickly as possible. There has to be some way to weightlift without it causing your muscles to tighten up and slow you down. At least that’s what I’ve heard it does. But at the same time we do a lot of pushups and squats and I don’t see how those are suppose to be better than doing bench or squats with weights. So I’m kind of torn.

Before I use to weightlift in the morning and do Muay Thai in the evening. I was doing a strength training program 5x5, started light and slowly worked up. And once I started to squat about 230 pounds, I started having trouble later in Muay Thai class. We’d just warm up with a couple of minutes jogging and my legs would get stiff and heavy and I’d start sweating profusely (dripping everywhere) and I’d drag through class with no energy. That’s when I talked to my coach and he told me to quit, so I did. But I started recently doing the weightlifting after Muay Thai class again. But I don’t always get to it. Depends on how hard the previous class was. I can’t tell if it’s helping or hurting though.[/quote]

Look at gsp though, he is an amazing striker and he has a lot of muscle size.

36

[quote]jacksmithbrew wrote:

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:
Even clinching is pretty technical in Muay Thai. And I’ve told my Muay Thai coach I was weightlifting and he told me to stop and to look at Anderson Silva he has no muscle and is one of the best strikers in MMA.

I’m not fully convinced weightlifting is bad for striking. I know sprinters weightlift and they’re all about running as quickly as possible. There has to be some way to weightlift without it causing your muscles to tighten up and slow you down. At least that’s what I’ve heard it does. But at the same time we do a lot of pushups and squats and I don’t see how those are suppose to be better than doing bench or squats with weights. So I’m kind of torn.

Before I use to weightlift in the morning and do Muay Thai in the evening. I was doing a strength training program 5x5, started light and slowly worked up. And once I started to squat about 230 pounds, I started having trouble later in Muay Thai class. We’d just warm up with a couple of minutes jogging and my legs would get stiff and heavy and I’d start sweating profusely (dripping everywhere) and I’d drag through class with no energy. That’s when I talked to my coach and he told me to quit, so I did. But I started recently doing the weightlifting after Muay Thai class again. But I don’t always get to it. Depends on how hard the previous class was. I can’t tell if it’s helping or hurting though.[/quote]

Look at gsp though, he is an amazing striker and he has a lot of muscle size.
[/quote]

no he isn’t big and no he isn’t a amazing striker.

37

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:

[quote]jacksmithbrew wrote:

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:
Even clinching is pretty technical in Muay Thai. And I’ve told my Muay Thai coach I was weightlifting and he told me to stop and to look at Anderson Silva he has no muscle and is one of the best strikers in MMA.

I’m not fully convinced weightlifting is bad for striking. I know sprinters weightlift and they’re all about running as quickly as possible. There has to be some way to weightlift without it causing your muscles to tighten up and slow you down. At least that’s what I’ve heard it does. But at the same time we do a lot of pushups and squats and I don’t see how those are suppose to be better than doing bench or squats with weights. So I’m kind of torn.

Before I use to weightlift in the morning and do Muay Thai in the evening. I was doing a strength training program 5x5, started light and slowly worked up. And once I started to squat about 230 pounds, I started having trouble later in Muay Thai class. We’d just warm up with a couple of minutes jogging and my legs would get stiff and heavy and I’d start sweating profusely (dripping everywhere) and I’d drag through class with no energy. That’s when I talked to my coach and he told me to quit, so I did. But I started recently doing the weightlifting after Muay Thai class again. But I don’t always get to it. Depends on how hard the previous class was. I can’t tell if it’s helping or hurting though.[/quote]

Look at gsp though, he is an amazing striker and he has a lot of muscle size.
[/quote]

no he isn’t big and no he isn’t a amazing striker.
[/quote]

i was just writing my response to this. what gsp is is good at dictating the fight he wrestles the better strikers. back peddles and jabs stronger better wrestlers. and when all else fails kicks matt hughes in the nuts enough times to make him flinch at the sight of a kick. gsp knows how to win fights hes gotten very good at playing the game since matt serra knocked him out but as far as strikers go in mma many many fighters outshine him.

as for his size hes pretty much on par for weight cutting at his weight class thiago alvez is BIG for his class

38

The advice already given on this thread is pretty sound. You should eat more, and in my opinion you shouldn’t weight train on the same days, or the day before you do technique training. If you do weight train on the same day, it definitely shouldn’t be before your technique workouts. Since you said you have Friday, Saturday, Sunday off, i would recommend working out on Friday/saturday. Sunday still off.

  1. If your main goal in life is to be an awesome kickboxer then you should follow fighting irish’s advice and stop weight training for now. and eat more.

  2. If you want to continue to do kick boxing but also get bigger and stronger then workout friday/saturday, and eat like a wild starving animal. Since your only working out twice a week (and back to back days) It makes more sense to do a strength training routine that a BB style routine. Probably Lower body on fridays (two days to recover for mondays training). Upper body Saturdays (push and especially pull!).

Finally, as an example of how much more you should be eating at meals, i will compare your breakfast with how much I think you should be eating. Instead of one egg and toast, or a bowl of vector cereal - You should be eating 6 eggs and toast, 4 peices of bacon, and a bowl of vector cereal, and a litre of milk (3%). Every meal should be about this big - especially your meals after your workouts (or bigger). You should start gaining weight and feeling like you have alot more energy during your workouts, if you start gaining fat weight its simple just cut it back a bit and all your kickboxing workouts will easily shed the weight, but dont’ be worried about a little fat, its the sign your actually getting enough calories.

39

[quote]JonnyTMT wrote:
The Thai’s have an even stronger death grip! haha However, the thing is that most westerners only know one lock (both hands behind the head of the opponent). MMA guys even call this lock the “Thai plum”. I HATE it when I hear people use this term. “Plum” in Thai simply means “grappling”. Muay Thai has dozens of different locks, and if you look at a fight from Thailand you will barely ever see a fighter get a lock with both his hands on the back of his opponents neck, because this position is really easy to avoid if you know how to clinch properly.

When a westerner tries to clinch with a Thai fighter and just tries to get his hands behind the Thai’s head, he will usually find himself getting thrown down a lot. Thai’s utilize a lot of different locks that control the opponents upper arms, and also use a lot more throws than the majority of westerners.
.[/quote]

Thank you for answering. Glad I asked.

Regards,

Robert A

40

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
You’re going to have to explain that some more Sento. I am not seeing the correlation, other than the fact that added weight does indeed make things harder to do.

Which would be fine if his MT gloves weighed 55 lbs…but they don’t, so who cares?[/quote]

Have you ever fought in a muay thai match? 1 round of hard clinching will make your gloves feel like they weight 55lbs. Unlike boxing muay thai has clinch work. There are tons of fighters out there that bullies their opponent in the clinch.