Overhead Squats?

[quote]Danny John wrote:
Obviously, there is no magic exercise. But, what I found with my throwers is that we had a one to one relationship with the OvSqt and distance. It was amazing and it convinced me that something good was going on.

Oh, and on the “Dad Strength” thing, read the fucking article first. I had a point to make.

It seemed that the lift…as many of you discovered…highlights the weak link in the chain. You can have a big back squat and can’t hold an empty bar above your head…that is a weak link.

I have done the 15 X BW at least three times. The heaviest was when I weighed around 255 and did 265. It is a test to do once a year…at most…and is up there with a Strongman Contest. (More fun to tell people you did it rather than to do it). I have had about three or four athletes do it and each was a terror on the fields of sport. The hard part of the test is around nine reps as the whole supportive structure just starts giving out…you have to play with tension and relaxation from the first.

That might be the key to why it is a great lift: the constant challenge of using tension and relaxation. That could be it…
[/quote]

Thanks Dan John, you’re the man.

I’ve been doing these twice per week for the past month or so, as an assitance exercise after my main lower body exercise. I found that the hardest part was just figuring out the form and getting the bar to sit in the “sweet spot” through the whole range of motion. Olympic lifting shoes with a heel and wrist wraps are essential, IMO.

At a BW of 240, I’ve worked up to 185x15 and 225x4. I think I can hit 240x15 within another month or two.

I might have come off a little negative about the “Dad Strength” thing, but, you know, you write an article of several pages and people latch on to one term and act like it is the …whatever.

The idea is this: my dad and his buddies never lifted weights but could do freaky strength things…like like the engine out of a car. So, now I am a dad, and my daughter’s male friends are just freaked…not by my sports…but by the fact I tried to kill a man with a sword a few years ago in a fit of rage.

You see, that’s Dad Strength. The ability to run down the street chasing a car with a broadsword in broad daylight vowing to cut the head off of someone.

I noticed that one of the posters wants to improve his vertical jump. Come by. I can chase you with a sword and we can see how fast and high you can move…

Thanks, Dan John, for contributing.

And thank you for introducing me to the Overhead Squat. I actually read your article on your website about Overheads before I ever came across T-Nation. I had never heard of the OS before reading your article, and the only reason I look for OS references today is because of your writings.

Regarding everyones’ comments on OS’s:

Certainly, OS’s wouldn’t constitute the whole picture. But I think they are pretty beneficial nonetheless.

Will OS’s do the hard work for you? No, you still have to work hard (in fact, even harder, considering how difficult the exercise is). Will OS’s help you if you work hard? I think they would to a very great extent, just like with any other good exercise.

Keeping things simple… a lot (most) of people have trouble doing even one rep with just the bar (usually because of shoulder inflexibility). When your shoulder becomes more flexible and the weight becomes heavier… it doesn’t get any easier at all. It’s quite an adventure to raise and lower yourself while holding a bar above your head, especially if there’s weight on it.

Given that people struggle with it so much… imagine how strong you’d have to be to do 15 reps with bodyweight in this exercise. I think I’ll be a LOT stronger in general when I can do it. I’m a very long way away right now. Most people (me included) can’t even hold their bodyweight above their head (or get it up there in the first place). Imagine holding 215 or 225 pounds above your head for however long it takes to do 15 reps. Imagine squatting up and down with 225 pounds being held above your head.

Are OS’s ‘better’ than back squats, deadlifts, etc? I think it depends on personal preferences and goals. I don’t think any of them are ‘bad’; they’re all wonderful exercises.

What I like most about OS’s is that they are very, very demanding on your whole body, especially your upper body (this may be just me). I feel as if I’ve given my whole body a workout of sorts when I’ve done OS’s. I can’t say that about some other exercise.

I just plain like Overhead Squats.

The catch with them is that you have to work incredibly hard with them. Even once you get the shoulder flexibility, etc, as long as you increase the weight to a challenging level, OS’s are still going to be a very difficult challenge for anyone.

That’s the thing with OS’s. They’re bloody hard. If you’re willing to put in the sweat with them… I think they’d be great. If you prefer putting in the sweat with squats and deadlifts instead… I think that’d be great too. BUT if you’re only putting in the sweat with barbell curls… then maybe you shouldn’t be reading any of this.

I just love OS’s, and I owe Dan John a great debt of gratitude for opening my eyes to them. Thanks, Dan.

[quote]Danny John wrote:
I might have come off a little negative about the “Dad Strength” thing, but, you know, you write an article of several pages and people latch on to one term and act like it is the …whatever.

The idea is this: my dad and his buddies never lifted weights but could do freaky strength things…like like the engine out of a car. So, now I am a dad, and my daughter’s male friends are just freaked…not by my sports…but by the fact I tried to kill a man with a sword a few years ago in a fit of rage.

You see, that’s Dad Strength. The ability to run down the street chasing a car with a broadsword in broad daylight vowing to cut the head off of someone.

I noticed that one of the posters wants to improve his vertical jump. Come by. I can chase you with a sword and we can see how fast and high you can move…[/quote]

I feel you and know exactly where you’re coming from on the whole “Dad Strength” thing.

My dad would carry two 100 lb grain sacks, one on each shoulder to the back of the barn (about 100 feet or so) while I struggled with only one.

When he tinkered with his snowmobilehe would pick the fucking font end up, balance the ski’s on his work bench, scoot around to the rear end, pick it up, and slide the thing onto his bench all becuase “bending over to work on this thing is a bitch.”

When I got older and thought I was big enough to handle him in a brawl he’d ball up both his meaty fists and give me a quick double jab to my chest, rendering me without breath and unable to do a thing but listen to him laugh and tell me to calm down.

When it would come time to hook up the plow, disc, manure spreader, hay bailer, or wagon, he’d be next to the equipment lifting it up to the hitch point on the tractor. I’d try to do the same thing and basically blow my nutsack out trying.

There was an attic above the lean-to in the back of our barn where he’d store hay bales. You could access it from the outside with a ladder. This guy would climb the ladder with one hand, carry a hay bale in the other and then snatch/launch the thing into the attic one handed.

Shit like that just left me in awe sometimes. In his farming days he was 5’6 and about 220 bills. Nowadays he’s slowed down a little but the guy can still do some freaky shit that I’d never ever consider and he turns 63 in a couple weeks. I’ve seen plenty other Dad’s do the same type of stuff, especially growing up around farmers, never pounding their chests or strutting like they just did some amazing feat, to them it was just business as usual.

I think that’s what “Dad Strength” is all about.

B.

And let me be the first to say that 15 reps with 265 at 255 is a TREMENDOUS achievement. That is unbelievable for us mere mortals.

I probably got a bit carried away at the beginning of this thread when I was wondering about raw, untramelled, animal-like strength…

But, keeping things simple, I think I’ll be pretty darn strong when I can do 15 reps with 215, 220 or 225. Once I reach that level, yes, I’ll try to get even stronger (of course), but even ‘just’ the BW * 15 level is still a long, long, long way away.

And when I can do BW * 15, well, I may not be able to lift the engine out of a car just yet, but I’ll certainly be more confident when trying to… :slight_smile:

The point is… OS’s are hard work. That’s enough to disqualify most people from getting serious about them. But if you get serious about them, I have a feeling that they’d really help you get really strong. Are they better than squats and deadlifts? Probably not. Are they ‘worse’? I don’t think so. I think it depends on what you want to do. I don’t think you can go much wrong with either the squat, the deadlift, the OS, or one or two other good, solid exercises such as clean-and-presses. They’re all great. It’s up to each of us to figure out which ones we want to be good at.

Thanks again, Dan, for your writings on Overhead Squats.

Dad strength = total body tension

Like when a line backer explodes into a running back. Or Shannon Hartnett on the cover of MILO. Or Pyrros Dimas standing up with 396 pounds over his head.

I have a question about how other people perform OS’s.

Do people do them every day, or do they only do them 3 times a week, or something else? Do people just do them whenever they feel up to it, rather than sticking to a particular schedule?

I think doing them 3 or 4 times a week is not bad (generally on non-consecutive days). Sometimes, when you train hard, you just don’t feel up to a workout on some days, and on those days, I usually just take a break that day. Are other people the same?

I must admit that it can be hard to motivate yourself to do OS’s, because they’re a pretty demanding exercise, and I don’t want to give half-hearted efforts when I work out, so I just take the day off when I wake up and don’t feel like pushing my body to the limit on that day (which is almost always because I’m feeling tired from working out hard on the day before, or for a few consecutive days before).

I’ve been doing 7 or 8 sets of 5 reps with a given weight on Overheads, when I’ve been doing them. What do other people do? (Sometimes, I go nuts, and after those 7 or 8 sets, I bump up the weight each subsequent set and work up to a max set for the day).

I haven’t been been doing any heavy snatches or jerks for a while since my temporary gym doesn’t have bumpers, but I have been working on my overhead squat flexibility.

With an empty bar, I can overhead squat with an exactly shoulder width grip ATG while barefoot. Go me!

[quote]Krollmonster wrote:
I haven’t been been doing any heavy snatches or jerks for a while since my temporary gym doesn’t have bumpers, but I have been working on my overhead squat flexibility.

With an empty bar, I can overhead squat with an exactly shoulder width grip ATG while barefoot. Go me![/quote]

You bastard! I’ve started doing a few sets with the bar every workout for a warm up. So far I can do a wobbly, snatch grip, 3/4 squat if I don’t fall over. I will OHS my bodyweight though, mark my words!

I love this thread. Even more since the “jimmylegs and his fig leaf” debacle started yesterday.

I’m lacking flexibility, um, everywhere. I’ve gotten to the point that I can OHS the bar, but half the time my heels will lift a bit. Is this a good way to mess myself up? Will putting some weight on the bar help me sink down into the hole? Or should I keep repping away with the PVC?

[quote]MrTangerineSpedo wrote:
I love this thread. Even more since the “jimmylegs and his fig leaf” debacle started yesterday.

I’m lacking flexibility, um, everywhere. I’ve gotten to the point that I can OHS the bar, but half the time my heels will lift a bit. Is this a good way to mess myself up? Will putting some weight on the bar help me sink down into the hole? Or should I keep repping away with the PVC?[/quote]

After consulting an O-lifter about that problem, which I also posess (I think hamstrings are the only flexible part of my body), it appears to be an ankle mobility issue. He suggested lots of calf stretching and doing some band traction on the ankle.

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
MrTangerineSpedo wrote:
I love this thread. Even more since the “jimmylegs and his fig leaf” debacle started yesterday.

I’m lacking flexibility, um, everywhere. I’ve gotten to the point that I can OHS the bar, but half the time my heels will lift a bit. Is this a good way to mess myself up? Will putting some weight on the bar help me sink down into the hole? Or should I keep repping away with the PVC?

After consulting an O-lifter about that problem, which I also posess (I think hamstrings are the only flexible part of my body), it appears to be an ankle mobility issue. He suggested lots of calf stretching and doing some band traction on the ankle.[/quote]

I’ll give that a try, thanks. I hope I didn’t kill this thread after saying how much I enjoyed it…

[quote]futuredave wrote:
Tried these the other day and can’t even do one with the bar.

I just don’t have the shoulder flexibility and the bar ends up way too far in front of me.

Any tips/links on how to develop the proper shoulder range of motion for this? Thanks.[/quote]

Try widening your grip. Also, shoulder dislocates have worked for me in the past. Do them a few times every day for a week and you will probably be able to get your shoulders into the proper position for OH Squats.

DB

I’ve done a few OHS squats myself, and find my shoulders giving out pretty quick, Wold you guys consider OHS primarily an upper body exercise?

[quote]luceb wrote:
I’ve done a few OHS squats myself, and find my shoulders giving out pretty quick, Wold you guys consider OHS primarily an upper body exercise?[/quote]

If your shoulders are fatiguing during OHS, it is probably because your shoulders/chest aren’t loose enough to get you in the right positions. You are probably stuck in a position similar as the final inches of doing a barbell front raise, so you have to “hold” the barbell out in front of you. If you get more flexible, the bar will sit back further and your shoulders won’t get fatigued.

Once you are in the right positions, the bar won’t feel heavy, and won’t feel like you are military pressing it. I find the difficulty becomes keeping the position throughout the squat so I don’t lose the bar to the front or rear. There really isn’t a worry of the arms bending and dropping it on me.

[quote]MrTangerineSpedo wrote:
I love this thread. Even more since the “jimmylegs and his fig leaf” debacle started yesterday.

I’m lacking flexibility, um, everywhere. I’ve gotten to the point that I can OHS the bar, but half the time my heels will lift a bit. Is this a good way to mess myself up? Will putting some weight on the bar help me sink down into the hole? Or should I keep repping away with the PVC?[/quote]

Definitely work on your calf flexibility. Do both straight leg/ and bent leg calf stretches. That will keep your heels on the ground.

An update on OS’s:

Being of a somewhat maniacal nature, I ventured to the gym this morning and, after a brief warm-up, I did 10 sets of 5 reps with 55 kilograms (121 pounds). While this isn’t earth-shattering for some other lifters, it’s still progress for me.

My entire upper body was begging for mercy throughout the workout. My forearms were so swollen I could barely grasp the bar, and my deltoids and triceps were at the end of their tether. It was very, very hard to keep the bar overhead for the fourth and fifth reps of the last few sets of 5.

Wow. That was a tough workout. I’ll bump it up to 57.5 kg next time, and try to do a few sets of 5 with that.

Slow but steady progress…

[quote]Garage Dweller wrote:
Being of a somewhat maniacal nature … I did 10 sets of 5 reps with 55 kilograms (121 pounds)[/quote]

that’s psychotic. sounds like something i would do. i find fatigue comes fast with OHS due to my reaaaally gay shoulders. interestingly enough, although my shoulders are gay, i am not. go figure.

in the meanwhile, keep overhead squatting.

oh, actually I invented the OHS. this happened about 2 weeks after Dan John told me about them. he still claims it … ohhhhh the nerve.