Our Biggest Immediate Terrorist Threat

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Will207 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Not a nuke…

Not a plane…

Small arms fire.

Our local police do not have the resources to respond to a large scale small arms attack on a community. Look what happens when ONE person brings a gun into a movie theatre… Or when ONE person brings a gun into a scool or LAX. 20+ get killed and have the entire police department scrambling. Now imagine if 10-20 organized terrorists with ak 47s hit 10 different high traffic areas in the same city at the same time. The Boston bombing killed 3, imagine the death toll in this scenario.

How would we prevent or contain this?
[/quote]

If enough of our CITIZENS were legally armed, you wouldn’t be asking that question.[/quote]

Could you clarify your position? What is the role of an armed citizen in the event of a mass shooting? Is it to have a fighting chance to get out of danger, or are you entering buildings and clearing rooms looking for the shooters?[/quote]

If someone started shooting at a citizen (terrorist or criminal), it is in the citizen’s best interest to have the ability to shoot back. I personally would rather die with a gun in my hand, than on my knees because I was unarmed.

42

Anyone remember the DC sniper? As I recall, that was one adult male and a teenage boy, neither with much in the way of training or expertise. They essentially shut down DC and part of Virginia, for at least a week. Two men.

The 10-20 guys with AK’s in a mall is possible, but not an efficient use of resources. Set a half dozen two man sniper teams out in several major cities. At the same time, send out a team of guys to mess with power, communication and transportation. Shoot out transformers and damage cell towers. Hijack a handful of semis and jacknife them on the highway.

Quickly park a couple of trucks across the front and back entrances to key firehouses. Attack or make threats against local schools. Shoot out the tires of every police car and ambulance you see. Minimize our ability to move and communicate. Create chaos for 48 hours and then retreat. Give the government and citizenry the chance to poke their heads out and then start again. This is what the terrorists will do when they choose to strike again.

I think that it was Jewbacca that once mentioned that when wrol comes due to terrorist activity, it will be when the US is already stressed/stretched thin due to natural disaster - ie a major earthquake, really bad winter, a major influenza outbreak, hurricane, etc. He is correct. Add in everything in the paragraph above to a national crises and it will rock us like nothing we as a country have ever experienced.

You can be sure that there are small groups of sleepers out there in the US right now, just waiting on the right natural disaster and a GO signal to turn loose on us in a big way.

43

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Frankly, I have no idea why it hasn’t happened yet.[/quote]

I’m assuming because most of the men trained to be able to do this are home fighting there in the ME and not here.

Plus… Getting rifles in America isn’t as easy as the news makes it out to be. Couple out of a trunk? Sure. 40 or 50? Much harder and then you need 10+ mags each…

A home made bomb is much easier, faster, takes less coordination and has a better pysh effect. [/quote]

At least in Washington State, I don’t see how it would be hard to procure rifles, especially over time. Private sellers and cash would leave no records of the transaction and there is no law against private sales without background checks. One clean shaven guy with some cash, a few weeks, and internet access could amass quite an arsenal I would think.

http://www.kingcounty.gov/healthservices/health/data/GunViolence/status.aspx

44

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
One clean shaven guy with some cash, a few weeks, and internet access could amass quite and arsenal I would think.

[/quote]

Some cash? To enact the plans spoken about here we’re talking ten’s of thousands in rifles, ammo, armor, and then trucks, training, communications, planning, logistics, etc etc etc.

The Boston bombers already had guns… Rather than pick up a couple more they made a bomb… Many bombs, which I’m being told are exponentially harder to make (I’m assuming that isn’t true.)

Two guys who could have fucking wasted 10x more people with two 12 gauges and a back up MINI14 in that crowd… But they picked bombs…

Again, homegrown cell, maybe, but I’m not buying this “a bunch of foreign born guys can come here, amass an arsenal and then, using complex military strategies take out a town or even a mall.” I’m certainly not buying the entire town thing…

45

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
One clean shaven guy with some cash, a few weeks, and internet access could amass quite and arsenal I would think.

[/quote]

Some cash? To enact the plans spoken about here we’re talking ten’s of thousands in rifles, ammo, armor, and then trucks, training, communications, planning, logistics, etc etc etc.

The Boston bombers already had guns… Rather than pick up a couple more they made a bomb… Many bombs, which I’m being told are exponentially harder to make (I’m assuming that isn’t true.)

Two guys who could have fucking wasted 10x more people with two 12 gauges and a back up MINI14 in that crowd… But they picked bombs…

Again, homegrown cell, maybe, but I’m not buying this “a bunch of foreign born guys can come here, amass an arsenal and then, using complex military strategies take out a town or even a mall.” I’m certainly not buying the entire town thing…[/quote]

20 guys, foreign born or no, and $20k could put the scenario together in six months, starting from scratch, including communications and equip training. Hell, one determined guy could put the equipment together for 20 guys in a couple of weeks. Long range walkie talkies are cheap. Used hunting rifles are cheap. Brand new hi-point 9mm are crap, but go bang when you ask and are cheap. Half a dozen deer rifles, a few carbines, handguns and a few thousand rounds of ammo is not an arsenal. There are a dozen guys within a five mile radius of me with that many firearms and ammo.

46

[quote]kineticj wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
One clean shaven guy with some cash, a few weeks, and internet access could amass quite and arsenal I would think.

[/quote]

Some cash? To enact the plans spoken about here we’re talking ten’s of thousands in rifles, ammo, armor, and then trucks, training, communications, planning, logistics, etc etc etc.

The Boston bombers already had guns… Rather than pick up a couple more they made a bomb… Many bombs, which I’m being told are exponentially harder to make (I’m assuming that isn’t true.)

Two guys who could have fucking wasted 10x more people with two 12 gauges and a back up MINI14 in that crowd… But they picked bombs…

Again, homegrown cell, maybe, but I’m not buying this “a bunch of foreign born guys can come here, amass an arsenal and then, using complex military strategies take out a town or even a mall.” I’m certainly not buying the entire town thing…[/quote]

20 guys, foreign born or no, and $20k could put the scenario together in six months, starting from scratch, including communications and equip training. Hell, one determined guy could put the equipment together for 20 guys in a couple of weeks. Long range walkie talkies are cheap. Used hunting rifles are cheap. Brand new hi-point 9mm are crap, but go bang when you ask and are cheap. Half a dozen deer rifles, a few carbines, handguns and a few thousand rounds of ammo is not an arsenal. There are a dozen guys within a five mile radius of me with that many firearms and ammo.
[/quote]

sigh…

Yes. Deer rifles…

Yes they use bombs 99 times out of 100 because 20k is really easy, and urban assault is also easy, and deer rifles off Craig’s List are real easy.

I don’t know why the military even TRAINS to do this shit. What a waste of tax payer dollars. TNation can plan an entire takedown of 30000 square foot building with some WalMart walkies and a deer rifle, fuck that, an entire town.

I’m not being flippant or trying to be (that much of) an asshole, but I’m just wondering if anyone who thinks this is so simple has ever been in a combat situation. Because I haven’t been in a combat situation and I can tell you, most people are not capable of locking down a 800 sq foot apartment, let alone raids on entire populations of people.

There is a reason these simple motherfuckers make bombs, not coordinated small arms attacks.

47

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
One clean shaven guy with some cash, a few weeks, and internet access could amass quite and arsenal I would think.

[/quote]

Some cash? To enact the plans spoken about here we’re talking ten’s of thousands in rifles, ammo, armor, and then trucks, training, communications, planning, logistics, etc etc etc.

The Boston bombers already had guns… Rather than pick up a couple more they made a bomb… Many bombs, which I’m being told are exponentially harder to make (I’m assuming that isn’t true.)

Two guys who could have fucking wasted 10x more people with two 12 gauges and a back up MINI14 in that crowd… But they picked bombs…

Again, homegrown cell, maybe, but I’m not buying this “a bunch of foreign born guys can come here, amass an arsenal and then, using complex military strategies take out a town or even a mall.” I’m certainly not buying the entire town thing…[/quote]

Why are you making it so complicated?

Kids have shot up schools. They are not starting a war or overtaking the White House it is a terrorist attack.The people willing to do this are willing to die/ are planning to. A group of 10 guys each with an assault rifle and a few reloads can climb into a couple vans go into any local theatre and do serious damage.

48

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
One clean shaven guy with some cash, a few weeks, and internet access could amass quite and arsenal I would think.

[/quote]

Some cash? To enact the plans spoken about here we’re talking ten’s of thousands in rifles, ammo, armor, and then trucks, training, communications, planning, logistics, etc etc etc.

The Boston bombers already had guns… Rather than pick up a couple more they made a bomb… Many bombs, which I’m being told are exponentially harder to make (I’m assuming that isn’t true.)

Two guys who could have fucking wasted 10x more people with two 12 gauges and a back up MINI14 in that crowd… But they picked bombs…

Again, homegrown cell, maybe, but I’m not buying this “a bunch of foreign born guys can come here, amass an arsenal and then, using complex military strategies take out a town or even a mall.” I’m certainly not buying the entire town thing…[/quote]

Meh, I don’t know. I think there’s lots of ways a group of people committed to killing others can kill others if they are unconcerned with death or prison themselves. Think of how many people 10 to 20 guys could kill if they each just rented an SUV and drove them at full speed into a crowd after a big sporting event or concert.

49

Have any of you “if we just armed the general populace then we’ll be fine” folks ever consider the possibility that you’re greatly over-playing the capability of the armed general populace?

I mean, what’s the point of “could have”? It could just go exactly the other way. Armed citizens may inadvertently kill innocents because he/she never trained himself properly in the use of his AR-15 or w.e that he carries around, and completely fail to achieve anything positive at all. It’s one thing to receive gun training and do a lot of target practice, and another thing entirely to be shooting at people who are shooting back at you in a crowded area.

I wouldn’t trust anyone with a rifle to not cause collateral damage in such a situation unless the guy has had military training.

50

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

Why are you making it so complicated?

[/quote]

Because I look at fact patterns. Deranged mental cases shoot up theaters, loonytoon cowards shoot little kids. People looking for TERROR use bombs.

Why? I don’t fucking know, maybe it has to do with the exponentially bigger boom and fear effect.

51

[quote]magick wrote:
Have any of you “if we just armed the general populace then we’ll be fine” folks ever consider the possibility that you’re greatly over-playing the capability of the armed general populace?

I mean, what’s the point of “could have”? It could just go exactly the other way. Armed citizens may inadvertently kill innocents because he/she never trained himself properly in the use of his AR-15 or w.e that he carries around, and completely fail to achieve anything positive at all. It’s one thing to receive gun training and do a lot of target practice, and another thing entirely to be shooting at people who are shooting back at you in a crowded area.

I wouldn’t trust anyone with a rifle to not cause collateral damage in such a situation unless the guy has had military training.[/quote]

Cops and the military do ti all the fucking time too. People are human.

52

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
One clean shaven guy with some cash, a few weeks, and internet access could amass quite and arsenal I would think.

[/quote]

Some cash? To enact the plans spoken about here we’re talking ten’s of thousands in rifles, ammo, armor, and then trucks, training, communications, planning, logistics, etc etc etc.

The Boston bombers already had guns… Rather than pick up a couple more they made a bomb… Many bombs, which I’m being told are exponentially harder to make (I’m assuming that isn’t true.)

Two guys who could have fucking wasted 10x more people with two 12 gauges and a back up MINI14 in that crowd… But they picked bombs…

Again, homegrown cell, maybe, but I’m not buying this “a bunch of foreign born guys can come here, amass an arsenal and then, using complex military strategies take out a town or even a mall.” I’m certainly not buying the entire town thing…[/quote]

Meh, I don’t know. I think there’s lots of ways a group of people committed to killing others can kill others if they are unconcerned with death or prison themselves. Think of how many people 10 to 20 guys could kill if they each just rented an SUV and drove them at full speed into a crowd after a big sporting event or concert.

[/quote]

Yet… again. They continue to make home made bombs…

I feel like everyone is missing my point on purpose because we all watched Rambo too many times as kids.

53

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Cops and the military do ti all the fucking time too. People are human. [/quote]

Well, ya, but then at least those folks are (in theory) held accountable for their actions and have received some training that simulates combat.

Do you expect the random guy who frequents a shooting range to not panic and completely lose his head in an actual crisis situation?

It’s like folks here expect people to be completely rational and capable if a bunch of terrorists burst into a mall guns blazing.

54

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
One clean shaven guy with some cash, a few weeks, and internet access could amass quite and arsenal I would think.

[/quote]

Some cash? To enact the plans spoken about here we’re talking ten’s of thousands in rifles, ammo, armor, and then trucks, training, communications, planning, logistics, etc etc etc.

The Boston bombers already had guns… Rather than pick up a couple more they made a bomb… Many bombs, which I’m being told are exponentially harder to make (I’m assuming that isn’t true.)

Two guys who could have fucking wasted 10x more people with two 12 gauges and a back up MINI14 in that crowd… But they picked bombs…

Again, homegrown cell, maybe, but I’m not buying this “a bunch of foreign born guys can come here, amass an arsenal and then, using complex military strategies take out a town or even a mall.” I’m certainly not buying the entire town thing…[/quote]

Meh, I don’t know. I think there’s lots of ways a group of people committed to killing others can kill others if they are unconcerned with death or prison themselves. Think of how many people 10 to 20 guys could kill if they each just rented an SUV and drove them at full speed into a crowd after a big sporting event or concert.

[/quote]

Yet… again. They continue to make home made bombs…

I feel like everyone is missing my point on purpose because we all watched Rambo too many times as kids.
[/quote]

Lol, I’m not trying to be obtuse; maybe I am missing your point. I’ll agree bombs are terrifying and the weapon of choice for lots of terrorists and if you have a big enough bomb placed in the right place they can kill lots of people.

55

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Cops and the military do ti all the fucking time too. People are human. [/quote]

Well, ya, but then at least those folks are (in theory) held accountable for their actions and have received some training that simulates combat.[/quote]

Some have sure… I would bet my local LEO’s closest thing to simulated combat in training is drinking during a bar fight.

Everyone loses their head in a combat situation. Unless we are talking highly trained military and special forces, everyone loses “it”. Your front brain shuts off and midbrain takes over, reverting you back to the level of training you’ve mastered.

If Joe Smith has stood in his living room, and over the last three years pulled his glock, fired 15 rounds, dropped a mag, inserted another, and dry fired another 15 into his TV every night, 30 times, that is what he will do in that situation. He won’t even realize he did it until it’s all over.

Anyone who has a range that doesn’t suck has done moving drills.

Yes some people who are CCW will freeze, some will panic and shit themselves, but still fire. Some people are wolves, some are sheep, and some are sheepdogs. I’d rather have the initial shooter have to deal with people fighting back and not. Read Jeff Cooper’s pamphlet Principles of Personal Defense.

It’s just as silly as thinking a bunch of UNTRAINED yahoo’s won’t be in the same midbrain auto pilot as the people on the defense.

I’ll take my chances with a couple good guys with guns being there v them not.

56

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]kineticj wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
One clean shaven guy with some cash, a few weeks, and internet access could amass quite and arsenal I would think.

[/quote]

Some cash? To enact the plans spoken about here we’re talking ten’s of thousands in rifles, ammo, armor, and then trucks, training, communications, planning, logistics, etc etc etc.

The Boston bombers already had guns… Rather than pick up a couple more they made a bomb… Many bombs, which I’m being told are exponentially harder to make (I’m assuming that isn’t true.)

Two guys who could have fucking wasted 10x more people with two 12 gauges and a back up MINI14 in that crowd… But they picked bombs…

Again, homegrown cell, maybe, but I’m not buying this “a bunch of foreign born guys can come here, amass an arsenal and then, using complex military strategies take out a town or even a mall.” I’m certainly not buying the entire town thing…[/quote]

20 guys, foreign born or no, and $20k could put the scenario together in six months, starting from scratch, including communications and equip training. Hell, one determined guy could put the equipment together for 20 guys in a couple of weeks. Long range walkie talkies are cheap. Used hunting rifles are cheap. Brand new hi-point 9mm are crap, but go bang when you ask and are cheap. Half a dozen deer rifles, a few carbines, handguns and a few thousand rounds of ammo is not an arsenal. There are a dozen guys within a five mile radius of me with that many firearms and ammo.
[/quote]

sigh…

Yes. Deer rifles…

Yes they use bombs 99 times out of 100 because 20k is really easy, and urban assault is also easy, and deer rifles off Craig’s List are real easy.

I don’t know why the military even TRAINS to do this shit. What a waste of tax payer dollars. TNation can plan an entire takedown of 30000 square foot building with some WalMart walkies and a deer rifle, fuck that, an entire town.

I’m not being flippant or trying to be (that much of) an asshole, but I’m just wondering if anyone who thinks this is so simple has ever been in a combat situation. Because I haven’t been in a combat situation and I can tell you, most people are not capable of locking down a 800 sq foot apartment, let alone raids on entire populations of people.

There is a reason these simple motherfuckers make bombs, not coordinated small arms attacks. [/quote]

This isn’t a combat situation. A combat situation is when you expect the enemy to be firing back at you in at least a semi-coordinated manner, within a short time of you beginning action. I am not talking about that. I am talking about a few guys that hate the US and it’s citizens sniping from hiding and generally creating as much chaos as possible without making targets of themselves. The resources and training to do this are laughably small. It took millions of dollars and dozens of people to train for, hijack and fly commercial aircraft into the WTC, and yet they did it. A few shooters shutting down a city is a cakewalk for a determined group.

Bombs are big and noisy and scary, and unless you have it strapped to your chest, most bombers plant the bomb and then run away, to cause carnage another day. The guy who storms into a mall with an AK is the equivalent of a suicide bomber. The sniper team with a basic plan wants to kill and cause chaos and then sneak away is the equivalent of the guy who sets a bomb and then runs away.

57

[quote]kineticj wrote:
I am talking about a few guys that hate the US and it’s citizens sniping from hiding and generally creating as much chaos as possible without making targets of themselves. The resources and training to do this are laughably small. [/quote]

I feel like you’re completely talking out of your ass here and totally wrong.

Because everything, and I mean every.single.thing. I’ve read and seen on this this says you are talking out of your ass and wrong here.

But whatever. You win. I don’t care anymore.

Yes. Some untrained people with WalMart Walkies and Deer Rifles are our biggest immediate threat.

58

This technique has been used before.

59

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]kineticj wrote:
I am talking about a few guys that hate the US and it’s citizens sniping from hiding and generally creating as much chaos as possible without making targets of themselves. The resources and training to do this are laughably small. [/quote]

I feel like you’re completely talking out of your ass here and totally wrong.

Because everything, and I mean every.single.thing. I’ve read and seen on this this says you are talking out of your ass and wrong here.

But whatever. You win. I don’t care anymore.

Yes. Some untrained people with WalMart Walkies and Deer Rifles are our biggest immediate threat. [/quote]

My bad. I was riffing on the 20 guys in a mall theme. Specifically about how the mall scenario was inefficient if the desire is to cause major damage with a minimum amount of personnel and resources. No, not our biggest immediate threat. Definitely not. But a very real possibility.

Biggest immediate threat, and to which we have virtually no defense? And yes - this is just my opinion: One guy poisoning the water supply of anytown USA.

60

[quote]kineticj wrote:

My bad. I was riffing on the 20 guys in a mall theme. Specifically about how the mall scenario was inefficient if the desire is to cause major damage with a minimum amount of personnel and resources. No, not our biggest immediate threat. Definitely not. But a very real possibility. [/quote]

My bad too. I’m just particularly touchy to the terrorist thinig these days. I live in an area who cheers martial law and total police state any time something bad happens. Scares the shit out of me…

We had some “folks” milling around our state reservoir a while ago. Got swept under the rug, and after 911 had national guard posted and roaming the forest for months. I think your fear is shared.