GO NAVY!
My hubby was out to sea during 9/11 and has been in Afghanistan since last year.
Closure. I hope that’s what thousands of people are feeling…
[quote]hungry4more wrote:
[quote]eeu743 wrote:
I think everyone views it as justice. I just don’t view it as a pleasant event. More of a necessary evil.[/quote]
Life isn’t always a pleasant event. Sooner or later you gotta accept that. Justice=necessary evil=however the fuck you wanna define doing what needs to be done. You could also say killing animals so we can cook and eat them is a necessary evil, but you won’t see me flinching before I eat another burger. I’ve accepted that it’s beneficial, therefore I’m not squeamish about it. I thought it was funny how my sister was grossed out at the 2 pigs we raised, killed, gutted, and hung on the pool deck to bleed out, so we could have them for food. Raise and butcher an animal if you want to eat it. Kill murderers if you want to be rid of them. Simple as that. It’s life, and it’s happening. [/quote]
I agree completely. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest that he’s dead. I really have no problem with it. To continue with your example though, when you killed the pigs, did you take great pleasure in it? Did their death bring you happiness? Or did you view it as simply a necessity?
An ex of mine worked at the Wall Street Journal and every day she’d pass by ground zero every day coming and going to work.
Every day there were people crying, mourning over loved ones and the people who died that day. Her office overlooked ground zero, also. It was emotionally draining just being around it and trying to even grasp how it must’ve been BEING there that day is impossible.
Personally, i’m glad and relieved he’s gone. It’s a victory to an extent. It’s too soon to say how much at this point.
Osama dieing makes me think war over troops back home no more bullshit. But really it doesnt change anything. There are crazier people that wanna replace bin laden and the u.s. killed a million people in the middle east most of them civilians which is more then enough revenge. Its pretty sad that most of the biological weapons that afganistan had were supplied by atcc in maryland and some company and a company in britain that i cant remember. Whats worse it that the military is fighting the same people the government put in when the russians attacked afghanistan.
No one will truly know the whole story to 9/11
Neither conscience nor sanity itself suggests that the United States is, should or could be the global gendarme.
Robert McNamara
Gotta finish watching fog of war
^mfw Obama and Bin Laden are hanging out at Bohemian Grove with piles of Jew gold.
[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
[quote]eeu743 wrote:
The logic you’re using here is that “everybody else is doing it, so it’s ok for me to do it too.” On a side note, I think it’s a little silly that I, and a few other people, said pretty plainly that we don’t agree with the “party” reaction to a man getting shot in the head, and the response is “you’re a piece of shit. you’re a dipshit.” etc. etc. I used to think everybody that was older than me was smarter and more mature than me. I thought adults pretty much had it all figured out. It is sad to constantly be reminded that most people never grow up. Nobody came in here and called all the people who find happiness in death “dipshit,” or unleashed a bunch of pointless cursing rather than trying to make an actual point. I just can’t believe grown people can’t find a better way to put forth their ideas. It’s embarrassing, and throwing that out as a way to tell someone you think you’re better than them is pretty weak.
The argument about human nature is weak too. My first instinct is to hurt somebody that makes me mad, does that mean I can punch my boss if he pisses me off? It’s human nature, right? To expect me to go against it would be to “display your utterly pathetic lack of connection with the human race.” There are a million examples of “human nature” that are frowned upon, because we ARE supposed to be civilized. We aren’t wild animals, we are supposed to be able to use logic and reasoning.
[/quote]
I must say, I gotta agree with this.
[/quote]
Well, the second paragraph here is directed squarely at me so I should address the fallacious nature of his argument.
You see, when I spoke about human nature, he neglects to mention that I explicitly qualified my statement by saying that we give up part of human nature in order to be free of attack from others when we live in a society. It’s a very Hobbesian approach. Basically, as humans our nature is to be at war with one another, but we agree that we will not war with someone if they give up that “right” to do the same to me. It’s social contract theory in it’s most basic form.
But when we live in a society and we collectively agree to live outside the state of warfare and within a society/commonwealth, we never give up our right to feel extreme anger toward someone and we never give up our right to feel joy when someone who is a direct threat to the social contract we have made (Hobbes would call it a covenant) by virtue of his attacks on us dies. We never give up that right because it’s part of human nature; we only give up the right to act on those feelings. We give up the right to actually drag bin Laden’s body down Pennsylvania Avenue and incinerate him in pig grease.
But to expect people to not feel extreme joy at the death of someone like bin Laden is ridiculous precisely because it goes against human nature. All eeu743 is doing is trying to assert his values onto those whose own values are in conflict with his and it’s beyond pretentious. It’s also ridiculous to direct any sort of criticism toward someone because their reaction to this situation is not the same as his, especially when he fully admits that he was not directly affected by 9/11 at all. It’s a very September 10th attitude of his and not only do I deeply resent anyone at all criticizing my reaction to this, I resent it even more so from someone who is emotionally detached from the events of 9/11.
edit: I should also mention that since bin Laden attacked the U.S. he had broken the social contract/covenant and therefore has removed himself from society, where none of the laws that bind us within a society apply anymore. You leave the society and you are on your own and you will be destroyed by those within the society. That’s what bin Laden did and therefore there is no reason for me to even exercise a modicum of restraint when it comes to celebrating his death. Whatever laws there are, whatever moral code that even eeu743 subscribes to, it does not apply in any way to bin Laden, so restraint of any kind is pointless.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
This is a major, major victory, [/quote]
You’re too intelligent to believe this. This was revenge, which of course is sweet. It was justice. But it’s not a “victory” by any measure of the word. It’s not huge from a strategic standpoint. He was reduced to a man on the run, living in the mountains and otherwise being sheltered. He was not the threat. The organization he spawned, and others like it, are the threat - and they still very much exist. Killing Osama is symbolic at best. There has been no ground gained here. [/quote]
You’re too intelligent to not believe this. This is the most anticipated death since Stalin or Hitler. This is a HUGE victory for the U.S., it’s just not the huge, damaging blow to al Qaeda that it would have been had bin Laden been active in their daily operations. Not all victories are measured in terms of their strategic impact.[/quote]
It’s symbolic at best. Won’t stop another terrorist attack. Isn’t that what you should be interested in? Is the world a safer place without him? I say it hasn’t changed at all. It’s nothing more than symbolic. [/quote]
Well, I don’t think it’s a huge strategic victory by any means, but I do believe that it will prove to be more than just a symbolic victory. And I don’t think a symbolic victory is anything to scoff at. Part of the symbolic victory is that the symbol of terrorism has been removed. His righthand man isn’t very popular at all in comparison to bin Laden and I think at the least this provides a small window of opportunity for those fighting terrorism to make serious inroads toward recruiting people for say, the armed forces or the police or even into legitimate schools instead of being recruited by terrorists. It may be a small window and it may not be a window at all when everything is said and done, but I do believe it’s there.
And also, I do think it helps to stop terrorist attacks. bin Laden may not have been involved in the daily operations of al Qaeda anymore, but I’m sure he’s been funding them this whole time. He certainly was the funder of the attacks on 9/11. I think the most important strategic victory in all of this so far is that his death has removed a significant source of money for al Qaeda. The other strategic victory gained here is that the U.S. can now focus more resources on other targets and not invest so much time in going after someone who was still more of a figurehead than anything else. Regardless of whatever strategic threat he still represented, I’d be willing to bet that the U.S. has diverted a disproportionate amount of time and money into finding him, relative to the threat that he was.
And when you get right down to it, if his death in any way leads to a faster return of our soldiers in Afghanistan then I would definitely consider his death a major victory, albeit a victory on a much more personal, selfish level.
DBcooper- I don’t think you need to use the word “right” in your argument, due to the fact it implies “should” and it seems like that word is contradictory to your point. Actually, I think that word distracts me from your point. You are trying to state that it’s unrealistic to expect humans not to react in an aggressive way to news of the “other”'s death, correct?
Looks at post-time
Ah… It’s becoming clear, now.
[quote]eeu743 wrote:
None of that changes my opinion. You think I am some naive doofus, I’m not. But nothing I say is going to change that. I can tell you one thing I HAVE experienced my entire life is people who are older than me thinking that I know nothing because of my age, and that anything I say is stupid. I VIVIDLY remember that the only people who ever showed any genuine respect for my opinions growing up were my parents. People somehow seem to forget this as they age. [/quote]
I remember making this comment to you before, but here goes.
When you are 30-33 years old, you will think back to this statement and firmly affix your palm to your face, and let out a homer like “DOH”.
You speak like you have the perspective of someone that is significantly older than you. You don’t have that perspective, stop believing you do.
Trust me when I say we all thought the same stupid shit (as far as age and wisdom is concerned.) But when it comes down to it, you are young, dumb and full of cum, much like all of us were. Just deal with taht fact and move on man. You will understand in a decade or so, trust me. You are not a moron, you will “get it.”
BUT…
One of the best parts of America is that this conversation can take place, and neither side is going to be hunt down and slain by the government for having an opinion. SO in that vein, carry on…
HOW TO STOP ISLAMIC TERRORISTS… it worked once in our History…
Once in U.S. history an episode of Islamic terrorism was very quickly stopped. It happened in the Philippines about 1911, when Gen. John J. Pershing was in command of the garrison. There had been numerous Islamic terrorist attacks, so “Black Jack” told his boys to catch the perps and teach them a lesson.
Forced to dig their own graves, the terrorists were all tied to posts, execution style. The U.S. soldiers then brought in pigs and slaughtered them, rubbing their bullets in the blood and fat. Thus, the terrorists were terrorized; they saw that they would be contaminated with hogs’ blood. This would mean that they could not enter Heaven, even if they died as terrorist martyrs.
All but one was shot, their bodies dumped into the grave, and the hog guts dumped atop the bodies. The lone survivor was allowed to escape back to the terrorist camp and tell his brethren what happened to the others. This brought a stop to terrorism in the Philippines for the next 50 years.
Pointing a gun into the face of Islamic terrorists won’t make them flinch.
They welcome the chance to die for Allah. Like Gen. Pershing, we must show them that they won’t get to Muslim heaven (which they believe has an endless supply of virgins) but instead will die with the hated pigs of the devil.
And what’s the big deal about sex with virgins? You ask any guy and they will say virgins are annoying to deal with and the sex is okay at best. Wouldn’t you much rather have an STD free whore who knows what she’s about? Or at least an STD free slut…if whores are too icky for you.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
DBcooper- I don’t think you need to use the word “right” in your argument, due to the fact it implies “should” and it seems like that word is contradictory to your point. Actually, I think that word distracts me from your point. You are trying to state that it’s unrealistic to expect humans not to react in an aggressive way to news of the “other”'s death, correct?[/quote]
What I am saying is this, and I’ll try to be succinct.
When we live in a society, there are certain morals and laws and so forth that we basically all agree to live by in order to preserve our own peace and sanctity. If someone breaks that contract then they have effectively left the society. That’s why we remove criminals from society; they’ve really just removed themselves.
It’s human nature to be at war, or do whatever we can to another in order to further secure our own peace and safety. If you seek peace, prepare for war sorta thing. We agree to forego all of that within a society. I use the word “right” because outside the society there are no rules, no norms, no laws. All of our actions are our “rights” no matter what they are because there is nothing to take them away from us except other people, whom we are just as free to take from as well.
So yes, it is against human nature to feel compassion for someone who is a threat to our peace or safety. We give up certain “rights” to live in peace, to be free from attack. Someone like bin Laden, outside of a society, is someone who we would probably attack preemptively exactly because he is a threat, and we would have every “right” to do so. So it’s beyond ridiculous for me to suddenly feel compassion of any kind or show any restraint over the death of that person simply because I live in society instead of outside of it. I gave up my right to carry bin Laden’s head around on a stick, ONLY if he also gives up his right to do the same. Well, he’s foregone that right a long time ago, so based on this Hobbesian approach here, we have every right to do to bin Laden what it is that we would otherwise have given up.
But again, NOWHERE to do we give up the “right” to voice any sort of outlandish joy over his death whatsoever, so to expect someone to do so or to criticize the outlandish responses here is asinine because it’s simply a transfer of one’s own restraint onto another. bin Laden left society so to me, he’s a non-entity and ANY sort of moral code I have (which includes me NOT feeling joy over the death of someone WITHIN society) does not apply to him AT ALL and anyone who would apply their own moral code to someone who has so egregiously discarded society is misguided.
Damnit, this was supposed to be succinct. Succinct isn’t something that I really do, so if you can’t figure out where I’m going with this or where I’ve already gone, well…there’s nothing I can do for you. I think most people here get where I’m coming from though.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]eeu743 wrote:
None of that changes my opinion. You think I am some naive doofus, I’m not. But nothing I say is going to change that. I can tell you one thing I HAVE experienced my entire life is people who are older than me thinking that I know nothing because of my age, and that anything I say is stupid. I VIVIDLY remember that the only people who ever showed any genuine respect for my opinions growing up were my parents. People somehow seem to forget this as they age. [/quote]
I remember making this comment to you before, but here goes.
When you are 30-33 years old, you will think back to this statement and firmly affix your palm to your face, and let out a homer like “DOH”.
You speak like you have the perspective of someone that is significantly older than you. You don’t have that perspective, stop believing you do.
Trust me when I say we all thought the same stupid shit (as far as age and wisdom is concerned.) But when it comes down to it, you are young, dumb and full of cum, much like all of us were. Just deal with taht fact and move on man. You will understand in a decade or so, trust me. You are not a moron, you will “get it.”
BUT…
One of the best parts of America is that this conversation can take place, and neither side is going to be hunt down and slain by the government for having an opinion. SO in that vein, carry on…[/quote]
Absolutely…and I realized this long before 30. I know I had that same attitude, and most people I know did as well. And I certainly look back now and think about how absurd it is.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Young Devil Dog wrote:
HOW TO STOP ISLAMIC TERRORISTS… it worked once in our History…
Once in U.S. history an episode of Islamic terrorism was very quickly stopped. It happened in the Philippines about 1911, when Gen. John J. Pershing was in command of the garrison. There had been numerous Islamic terrorist attacks, so “Black Jack” told his boys to catch the perps and teach them a lesson.
Forced to dig their own graves, the terrorists were all tied to posts, execution style. The U.S. soldiers then brought in pigs and slaughtered them, rubbing their bullets in the blood and fat. Thus, the terrorists were terrorized; they saw that they would be contaminated with hogs’ blood. This would mean that they could not enter Heaven, even if they died as terrorist martyrs.
All but one was shot, their bodies dumped into the grave, and the hog guts dumped atop the bodies. The lone survivor was allowed to escape back to the terrorist camp and tell his brethren what happened to the others. This brought a stop to terrorism in the Philippines for the next 50 years.
Pointing a gun into the face of Islamic terrorists won’t make them flinch.
They welcome the chance to die for Allah. Like Gen. Pershing, we must show them that they won’t get to Muslim heaven (which they believe has an endless supply of virgins) but instead will die with the hated pigs of the devil.[/quote]
This whole thing is entirely fabricated. None of it ever happened.[/quote]
Goddamnit Irish! I was just about to cum when I accidentally hit the refresh button in my zeal and this pops up. Thanks for ruining it. That’s twice you asshole! Twice! There will be no third time…
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
And what’s the big deal about sex with virgins? You ask any guy and they will say virgins are annoying to deal with and the sex is okay at best. Wouldn’t you much rather have an STD free whore who knows what she’s about? Or at least an STD free slut…if whores are too icky for you.[/quote]
I hope my penis accompanies me on the trip to heaven. That would be way awesome. And a very reasonable possibility too.
[quote] eeu743 wrote:
I don’t think it would change my opinion at all. None of that changes my opinion.
[/quote]
Then you’re a fucking asshole.
Your selection of words are not helping your case in proving otherwise.
This holds very little significance, really. You’re young. So am I. I can relate. However, I’ve learned that, in general, older people with more life experience than I are usually more correct than a high schooler on significant life issues. If they passed off your ideas and words as stupid, I doubt it was SOLEY based on the fact that you’re young.
The fact that people blowing off your ideas/words as stupid (when you’re young, no less) is the most significantly detrimental thing in your life, should tell you something. Maybe that something is that you really have no idea what it’s like to experience something like 9/11.
How you don’t realize how this line completely rips your argument right out from under you, is utterly astounding.
If “the only people who ever showed any genuine respect for my opinions” WERE COMPLETELY REMOVED FROM YOUR LIFE FOREVER*, you would be FUCKING DISTRAUGHT. This is fact and you know it. Don’t act otherwise.
This is the point where you should realize that many people, like you, love their parents dearly. It’s the same point where you should realize how fucking lucky you are that you can still give both of your parents a hug when you damn well please. That’s a priveledge that not everyone has.
*I wonder if you come even remotely close at realizing the significance of the word “forever.”
It seems as if many on here realize that parents (and family) are a valuable asset in life that you can’t put a price on, which is why they’re okay with the fact that some people might feel happy that the murderer who removed said family member is now rotting in hell.
I never said this, nor did I ever think it, nor do I think I even inferred it in any of my words. I purposely didn’t include any personal attacks in that last post for this exact reason. I don’t think you’re stirring up shit - I honestly believe you when you say you’re not HAPPY he’s dead.
My point still stands as the fact that, I, as someone who knows the context of how you were affected by 9/11 (ie, very little) can understand why you’re merely indifferent that Bin Laden’s dead. The fact that you can’t understand why someone who WAS/IS affected by 9/11 might find pleasure in the death of a murderer is BEYOND FUCKING RIDICULOUS.
My opinion of you is that you’re a sheltered, dissociated, overly utopian child. It’s got nothing to do with age and everything to do with the fact that you’re emotionally immature and have very little experience with REAL LIFE.
I’m well aware of this. If you were aware of this, you’d have realized that your most horrible life experiences of people telling you that you’re wrong isn’t so bad.
If people aren’t willing to “argue” or discuss their standpoints on something this significant, then fuck them. How strongly can someone feel about something if they’re not willing to voice their opinion? (I want you to answer this.)
For the record, I’m two years older than you. In the grand scheme of things, that’s a blink of an eye.
MY posts were insulting? Fuck you.
Would YOU say the same things you’ve said on this thread to the thousands of New Yorkers who were out chanting “USA!” at 2AM last night? I highly doubt it, and if you did have the sack to say it (which, judging by your avatar, you do not), you wouldn’t leave NY without having the foreverloving piss kicked out of you.
But anyway, to answer your question:
Yes, I’d still tell him that I’m happy Bin Laden’s dead. That’s an opinion I stand by and don’t have a problem sharing.
The difference between you and MLK is that he said all of that despite the absurd amount of hardships he was forced to face. You, on the other hand, have faced NOTHING other than a few geriatrics in Florida who thought you were a dumb, obnoxious, know-it-all little whippersnapper.
I’m okay with admitting that MLK was a more forgiving man than I am or ever will be. It still doesn’t change the fact that you, unable to realize why people would be happy over a MASS MURDERERS death, are fucking ridiculous.
Do you understand the difference between me saying “You’re ridiculous for not being happy about Bin Ladens death?” and me saying “You’re ridiculous for not seeing how someone else can be happy about Bin Ladens death?”
IDK why those quotes are fucked up, but beans summed up that you just don’t “get it.”
Have you ever heard the phrase “when you’re right and everyone else around you is wrong, you’re probably the one who’s wrong” ?
[quote]eeu743 wrote:
I can tell you one thing I HAVE experienced my entire life is people who are older than me thinking that I know nothing because of my age, and that anything I say is stupid. I VIVIDLY remember that the only people who ever showed any genuine respect for my opinions growing up were my parents. .[/quote]
For some reason you think this is some sort of coincidence. Or a conspiracy against you maybe. It’s neither. No one respects you because you give them no reason to. THis isn’t my opinion. It HAS to be true. There are plenty of 20 year olds garnering the respect of their peers and adults alike. It has nothing to do with your age. Youre just living in your own little world. WHat you fail to realize is that everyone here has experienced something like that. Some grow out of it faster than others. It seems like youre behind the curve at this point.
“Punk kid” is not the right term. “Ignoramus” is more fitting.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]eeu743 wrote:
I can tell you one thing I HAVE experienced my entire life is people who are older than me thinking that I know nothing because of my age, and that anything I say is stupid. I VIVIDLY remember that the only people who ever showed any genuine respect for my opinions growing up were my parents. .[/quote]
For some reason you think this is some sort of coincidence. Or a conspiracy against you maybe. It’s neither. No one respects you because you give them no reason to. THis isn’t my opinion. It HAS to be true. There are plenty of 20 year olds garnering the respect of their peers and adults alike. It has nothing to do with your age. Youre just living in your own little world. WHat you fail to realize is that everyone here has experienced something like that. Some grow out of it faster than others. It seems like youre behind the curve at this point.
“Punk kid” is not the right term. “Ignoramus” is more fitting.
[/quote]
yeah dude, you got me. I’m just dumb as shit.
I am not going to try to have a polite, intelligent conversation with any of you any more. There are some people who can do it on this website, none of them are participating in this thread. As one of the people that PM’d me about this put it, some of you think that being directly affected by these events (and hell, even those of you that weren’t) gives you a good reason to respond to an opinion that you don’t agree with “fuck you you’re a piece of shit” and the like, endlessly. You are all idiots, the world is full of them. I’ve never had doubts about my own intelligence, and even an entire country full of idiots like yourselves shouting all the stupid shit you do would never change that. In ten years, I won’t look back and think “doh.” I’ll look back and just see more evidence that most people truly never grow up. I have no regard for the opinions of people who, knowing nothing about me, and having never met me personally, would pass judgment on my character and intelligence. I am just happy that I was fortunate enough to not be born as dumb as you.