I just saw this. Lots of lessons can be learned from this one.
I hope that officer made it out of that ok.
That said, man was that ever an example of failing to see the warning signs of an impending violent encounter and acting accordingly. The fact that the perp had kids (presumably his own) in the car when he did that just goes to show the total lack of concern for other people’s well being and sociopathic nature of some people out there. This unfortunately can give them the advantage over others who do feel empathy and are trying to remain decent human beings.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I hope that officer made it out of that ok.
That said, man was that ever an example of failing to see the warning signs of an impending violent encounter and acting accordingly. The fact that the perp had kids (presumably his own) in the car when he did that just goes to show the total lack of concern for other people’s well being and sociopathic nature of some people out there. This unfortunately can give them the advantage over others who do feel empathy and are trying to remain decent human beings.[/quote]
Oregon State Police Shootout after Man Pulled over for Speeding Starts Shooting at Police Gun Battle between Trooper and Suspect
As soon as Oregon State Police Trooper Matthew Zistel pulled over the Cadillac for speeding it was clear something wasn’t right. The driver, 34-year-old John Van Allen, got out of his car and turned to face Zistel before the trooper could even bring his patrol car to a complete stop. The whole time Allen kept one arm behind his back. “Police! Get back in the car for me,” Zistel said with an authoritative tone. “Sir, get back in the car for me now!” Zistel repeated when Allen didn’t comply. The exchange between the trooper and suspect was caught on Zistel’s dashboard camera.
Oregon State Police officials released the video to the media Thursday afternoon. The shooting happened on August 29. The video shows Allen continued to disobey Zistel, whose tone grew increasingly stern. Less than 30 seconds after they stopped, Allen started walking toward the trooper. Allen then pulled out his arm from behind his back, drew a handgun from his waistband and started firing. Zistel was shot in the side, although did not suffer a serious injury and was released from the hospital later the same day. “Shots fired! Shots fired! 53-26 shots fired!,” Zistel yelled into his radio as Allen retreated to his own car, gun still aimed at the trooper. (53-26 represents Zistel’s unit number.)
Zistel returned fire when Allen drew his gun. Investigators said he struck Allen in the chest, although the injury is not clear in the video. Other troopers found Allen down the road slumped over his steering wheel. He was dead. Investigators said Allen had his three children in the car – a 10-year-old girl, a 13-year-old boy and a 15-year-old boy. The Sherman County district attorney later found that Zistel was justified in using deadly force when he shot Allen.
First Comment: Good Shoot
Second: That really could not have turned out better. Even some of the things that I might be able to monday mourning quarterback turned out to be “good”.
Flags that stood out to me:
1.)D.O.A “pulls over” on the white line. Either through luck, aggression, or tactics he gave himself a better angle to shoot at the officer(straight ahead vs across the patrol car’s hood or through the glass)
2.)D.O.A. gets out of car and blades/adopts an aggressive stance.
3.)D.O.A. places his hand on the gun right away. (I’m kind of interested if he was using a holster and was actually going for a “count 1” or if he had it tucked in his pants and needed to brace it.) The is the first of the serious red flags.
4.)Does not comply with any orders. I couldn’t hear if he says anything, but the officer says “You were speeding.” leading me to think that D.O.A. and I’m OK With That engaged/asked something. This pretty eliminates the “Does he understand my orders?”/Is this a deaf/mute who is just wearing a “Needs to shot” costume vs Someone I need to shoot question.
5.)Closes door with elbow(hand still behind hip). He isn’t getting out of the car, and he isn’t showing his right hand.
6.)Starts taking steps towards the officer. I think there were four or five.
7.)Visual confirmation that this is a gun fight.
D.O.A. definitely looked like he had some training and resolve. Why the hell a father and grandfather with children in his car thought that killing a police officer was a good idea I cannot fathom. I take the circumstances as proof that he was not in the “able to be reasoned with” category. I’m glad he bumped his mag release, that may have saved the officer’s life, or made things go in a way that none of the kids ended up performing “backstop” duty.
It looks like the officer handled that well to my untrained eye. He made an effective hit. He got back on the radio and started communicating even after he was shot. I don’t know enough about procedure/tactics to know if he should have been reporting differently or not. I couldn’t tell from the video when the officer broke kydex/leather, but I think he should have had a low ready/visual register of his gun at D.O.A’s thighs/lower abdomen sometime during point 2 above if not sooner. Shooting at points 3 or 4 instead of 7 would have been fine with me, but I don’t hold people at gun point for a living so I have no idea how many idiots manage to put on a “Needs to be shot costume” for no reason. Waiting may be very understandable.
I think the officer would have been perfectly justified in shooting more/continuing to shoot even as D.O.A. was fleeing. Of course this could have ended up killing any of the children which I didn’t see in the video.
Ghoul/Physiology note:
A.) This definitely illustrates the differences between “effective” and “fatal”. He drove about a mile after he was fataly wounded. He re-inserted his magazine. He opened a car door. This should be a teaching point for anyone who questions why someone had to be shot “so many times”. Here the wound was fatal, but obviously more was needed to secure a physiologic stop. Bleeding out/hypovolemic shock takes time.
B.) The officer’s wound also illustrates something. The majority of handgun wounds are not fatal. Keep fucking fighting. If the wound was fatal, shit will take care of itself. If not, stay in the fight. The single most dangerous aspect of a gun or knife wound is likely to be that it either forces or tricks you into receiving another. The officer was struck and continued to function.
Personal note: I am really glad this didn’t tern out like the Dinkfeller shooting.
[quote] [i]“Blessed are those, who in the face of death, think only of the front sight.”
- Jeff Cooper[/quote][/i]
Hope I didn’t over step any bounds. Critique of LEO tactics is out of my lane, so this post can just serve as place holder/bump for those better able to go there.
Train hard. Stay safe.
Regards,
Robert A
I never like to critique another officer…
BUT…
Those of us who do this, know that there was some IMMEDIATELY wrong with dude when he got out of the car. I would have called for back up first thing, hit my emergency switch on my radio, and drew down on the guy. I would have demanded to see his hands and told him to get on the ground…
Anyone who exits the car in that manner with their hands concealed with the “1000 yard stare” is trouble.
Deal with them accordingly.
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
I never like to critique another officer…
BUT…
Those of us who do this, know that there was some IMMEDIATELY wrong with dude when he got out of the car. I would have called for back up first thing, hit my emergency switch on my radio, and drew down on the guy. I would have demanded to see his hands and told him to get on the ground…
Anyone who exits the car in that manner with their hands concealed with the “1000 yard stare” is trouble.
Deal with them accordingly.[/quote]
I’m not trying to critique your critique, but that looks like a pretty rural area, so his closest backup could have been 10-15 or more minutes away. Hitting his emergency button may have gotten backup there in half that time. If(and that’s a gigantic ‘if’-I’d say the chance of that guy complying with commands was basically zero) he didn’t show you his hands or get on the ground, what would you have done? Yeah, better to be judged by 12 than carried by six and all, but how willing are you to be judged by that 12? If that guy does nothing but not show his hands or get on the ground, what do you do?
The best thing to do may have been retreat to the opposite(rear passenger) corner of his patrol car when the guy wouldn’t show his hands. He would at least have had some amount of cover and room to maneuver from there.
All that said, that officer did a pretty good job, as far as I’m concerned.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
I never like to critique another officer…
BUT…
Those of us who do this, know that there was some IMMEDIATELY wrong with dude when he got out of the car. I would have called for back up first thing, hit my emergency switch on my radio, and drew down on the guy. I would have demanded to see his hands and told him to get on the ground…
Anyone who exits the car in that manner with their hands concealed with the “1000 yard stare” is trouble.
Deal with them accordingly.[/quote]
I’m not trying to critique your critique, but that looks like a pretty rural area, so his closest backup could have been 10-15 or more minutes away. Hitting his emergency button may have gotten backup there in half that time. If(and that’s a gigantic ‘if’-I’d say the chance of that guy complying with commands was basically zero) he didn’t show you his hands or get on the ground, what would you have done? Yeah, better to be judged by 12 than carried by six and all, but how willing are you to be judged by that 12? If that guy does nothing but not show his hands or get on the ground, what do you do?
The best thing to do may have been retreat to the opposite(rear passenger) corner of his patrol car when the guy wouldn’t show his hands. He would at least have had some amount of cover and room to maneuver from there.
All that said, that officer did a pretty good job, as far as I’m concerned. [/quote]
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“Could have”… you never consider that in a situation like this. You put it out. You never know where someone “could” be. This is a state trooper, and dispatch can send support for the local agency if needed.
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Why do you give verbal commands? Ummm… The reason you do it is to justify shooting his ass. We do this in training, so it’s second nature. It’s recorded on tape, you gave commands (or tried to) and you shot his ass. It links the non-compliance and the aggressive action of the suspect. You train commands just like your draw stroke if you are smart. If dude is non-compliant and ended up not having a weapon, that can make all the difference in the world (both in civil and possible criminal proceeding against the OFFICER when it goes before the review board).
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If I have my gun pointed at him, and he has his hand concealed and is not obeying my commands?? I give SEVERAL, I warn I’m going to shoot him, and then if he makes one small move, he gets shot. The move can be a small as a step towards me.
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Yes, cover behind the vehicle would definitely been ideal. I would have retreated there once the first shots were fired, not before. I would have not retreated to cover “expecting” a gun fight. If I felt that way, I would have engaged first.
But, like I said, I don’t like to critique officers. I think he did just fine. This is why you train constantly.
[quote]Robert A wrote:
Personal note: I am really glad this didn’t tern out like the Dinkfeller shooting.
[/quote]
I also don’t like to armchair quarterback, but here are my thoughts:
Commands with the wordings “Sir”, “I need you to”, and “please” have no place in that type of situation.
As soon as he stepped out of the car, I would have unsnapped and tugged my weapon for an easy draw (Level 3 holster). After the first command was disobeyed, I would have shown him my unholstered weapon. Another command would be issued, and if he disobeyed again, my front post is now on his center mass. I then explain to him the gravity of the situation and the consequences of his actions. If he advances on me at that point, well, I feel that deadly force is justified. Contrary to public opinion, police don’t have to wait to be shot at to exercise deadly force.
Thankfully this situation didn’t end like the Dinkheller shooting. I remember hearing that the man who killed Dinkheller was asked why he did it. The man responded “Because he let me”.
[quote]WN76 wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
Personal note: I am really glad this didn’t tern out like the Dinkfeller shooting.
[/quote]
I also don’t like to armchair quarterback, but here are my thoughts:
Commands with the wordings “Sir”, “I need you to”, and “please” have no place in that type of situation.
As soon as he stepped out of the car, I would have unsnapped and tugged my weapon for an easy draw (Level 3 holster). After the first command was disobeyed, I would have shown him my unholstered weapon. Another command would be issued, and if he disobeyed again, my front post is now on his center mass. I then explain to him the gravity of the situation and the consequences of his actions. If he advances on me at that point, well, I feel that deadly force is justified. Contrary to public opinion, police don’t have to wait to be shot at to exercise deadly force.
Thankfully this situation didn’t end like the Dinkheller shooting. I remember hearing that the man who killed Dinkheller was asked why he did it. The man responded “Because he let me”.
[/quote]
Really good points brought out by all of you. I did not post the video to critize the officer. He did what he had to do, survived a gunfight without serious injury and killed the perp, cannot ask for anything better than that. while a rookie, i had a similar situation that did not end up in a shooting, but, learned a lot. Knowing what I know now, I agree with WN76, getting on target ASAP would be my first reaction. Like Brett stated, strong, clear and loud verbal commands a must for surviving the post civil suit.
Robert brought up a good point about surviving HANDGUN fights, often it take multiple rounds, (unless head or spine) to stop the perp. Unless the perp was struck when he suddenly tried to turn left around the hood of the car, I couldnt tell when he was hit and that brings up a point about fighting for your life with a handgun. A google search revealed the the OSP are issued the .40 caliber. I only have experience carrying the .45 and 9mm on duty, so, i will leave that to others to comment.
I have been with the feds for the past 5 years in the middle east training various units and have gotten used to carrying a M-4 everywhere. Currently issued a Glock 9mm and we joke that it being a last ditch weapon to kill yourself before being taken hostage. I have no information if the officer had a patrol rifle or shotgun with him or even if he could have deployed the weapon,but, if he could it would have given him a better chance to put that perp down (DRT) dead right there. I know that if i went back to work wearing a uniform, i would feel naked as hell without a rifle.
As i stated, I did not post to critize the officer, but, as a learning tool. As Brett stated, thats why we train. be safe. watch your 6.
I have the utmost respect for most police officers. Glad I’m in Corrections where the worst weapon I have to worry about is a shank! Just about shit my pants when I found one on a Latin Count gangster the other day can’t imagine what it’d be like to be in a gunfight.
[quote]StevenF wrote:
I have the utmost respect for most police officers. Glad I’m in Corrections where the worst weapon I have to worry about is a shank! Just about shit my pants when I found one on a Latin Count gangster the other day can’t imagine what it’d be like to be in a gunfight. [/quote]
And I have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone who works in Corrections. Not being armed and being around extremely violent subjects constantly where they significantly outnumber you takes a special person indeed. I have a friend who works in the nearby state prison. We share stories, and I always think his are worse then mine.
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
[quote]StevenF wrote:
I have the utmost respect for most police officers. Glad I’m in Corrections where the worst weapon I have to worry about is a shank! Just about shit my pants when I found one on a Latin Count gangster the other day can’t imagine what it’d be like to be in a gunfight. [/quote]
And I have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone who works in Corrections. Not being armed and being around extremely violent subjects constantly where they significantly outnumber you takes a special person indeed. I have a friend who works in the nearby state prison. We share stories, and I always think his are worse then mine.
[/quote]
X2 on this…I have the upmost respect for Corrections officers, before I was sent to the academy, I was assigned to the city jail for 6 weeks…long enough to know that I could not handle being locked in with the population…much respect to you, Sir.
My team and I reviewed this on Monday. Came up with many of the same points as Robert, so no need to re-hash. I’m thankful the officer survived, and the bad guy is dead. Had the bad guy not hit is mag release, things could have been much worse. He was clearly trained and motivated.
Although we were unable to see what the officer was doing, I was left with the impression that he had drawn down on the guy pretty quickly. The bad guy started to move forward once, but stutter-stepped it…I think that may have been when the officer drew down, or had at least cleared leather. From traffic stop to first gunfire is only something like 21 seconds, so I thought the officer did well for himself, all things considered.
I got the sense that as the shots started, that was when the officer started moving towards the back of his car for cover. That would explain why he was hit in the side, and why the bad guy moved to the front-right side of the car.
Two things I would hope to do better under the circumstances:
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Keep squared up and shooting center mass till the bad guy hits the ground. I believe it was the officer’s first round that was the decisive hit. Everything else probably missed cos he was moving backwards.
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Stay off the radio til the fight is over for sure. He gets on the radio before he knows the fight is over, and the bad guy actually found his mag and put it back in the gun while he was doing that. I would hope to go with what I have trained, and advance on him under fire until he drops.
Either way…not a critique. We never know how we will react until we are in that situation. I just try to learn from what I see, and try to train to do it right if the moment comes.
Cross post from bad ideas thread:
[quote]Will207 wrote:
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
If it’s the one I’m thinking of, I would say if he continued to approach and kept his hands behind his back, then move to a position where the patrol car is between the two of you. It gives the best combination of angled movement with available cover for the scenario. Not a great situation to be in, but not the worst, either.
In this day and age, anybody who comes walking back to your car with that kind of speed and attitude doesn’t have good things in mind for you. If nothing else, moving back and to the side, placing the rear of the cruiser between you, is going to protect you for a little longer if it’s an edged weapon .
Just my $.02. Your mileage may vary. And I thought the trooper did a great job, by the way.[/quote]
Yea, using the car to and waiting for backup was considered the best option.
I thought he did a great job too, but I was just curious to see what people here thought about the hypothetical scenario.
[/quote]
I will again say I think the officer did very well. I suppose shooting sooner would have been better in this case, but I can understand the desire to be absolutely sure.
He may well be criticizing his own marksmanship, but he made a lethal hit, and kept someone very intent on killing him from doing the same. While I am sure there is much to be learned, he basically threaded the needle between the following two videos.
First: A “good” bad shoot. By that I mean I’ll be damned if I say it was obvious not to take the shot, even though the officer clearly wanted those rounds back. Just a bad thing, thankfully this officer’s marksmanship was not the equal of the Oregon officer’s. It is eerily similar to the opening of the second video, save for worse lighting. Of course reality was completely different.
Second: This is the Texas DPS Trooper Vetter shooting by Melvin Edison.
Disclaimers: This is a fatal shooting. There is no blood shown, but the agonal respirations are very clear.
Regards,
Robert A