[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Personally, I think it’s more important than any other training variable.[/quote]
Aren’t you the one that just posted your plan going into your next competition with a 95% DE day?
What does a 95% DE day look like in terms of sets/rest/reps/weight/bands/est?
[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Personally, I think it’s more important than any other training variable.[/quote]
And what’s your argument for that? It is definitely not the most important. If it was you would be able to take a fast person and put him under a bar and make him squat a lot because speed is the most important variable. As I’ve stated earlier, look at all the world record holders. Most don’t even do speed work and most of them are over 30 when their peak speed has deteriorated
To say that most raw world record holders don’t do speed work is just not true. Konstantinov, Efferding, Coan, Pacifico, Magnusson etc… all do/did speed pulls. You don’t have to do westside to make speed work an important part of your workout. Even working up to your max can include up to 8 sets where speed and form are the main focus. The key is to find a balance that allows you to be fast with heavy weights…
Efferding was just featured in Power magazine and said what he does and didn’t include any type of speed work. Also all the Russians with their high volume training there is nothing cut out for speed. As far as warming up, yes it should be fast but it’s not that you’re working on speed, it’s that you’re exerting as much force as you can which of course if the weight is lighter than your max, it’s going to be fast.
If you really think being quick, which is the by product of speed work is part of the equation please explain to me why powerlifters peak in their mid 30s-early 40s when it is common knowledge that they’re not at their fastest. Just look how olympic lifters, football players, and even track runners are all out of their prime by 30 because speed deteriorates with age. How fast or quick you are has minimal impact on how strong you are.
Everybody does speed work. Westside just made a point to understand it and build a program utilizing it. The concept when broken down to it’s most basic blocks is not much different then a warm up set, a back off set, an in between visual set. Any one who performs well in anything that requires movement has done speed work, slow work, and the actual work itself. You are not going to improve at something doing the exact same variables for 10,20,30+ years’
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
Efferding was just featured in Power magazine and said what he does and didn’t include any type of speed work. Also all the Russians with their high volume training there is nothing cut out for speed. As far as warming up, yes it should be fast but it’s not that you’re working on speed, it’s that you’re exerting as much force as you can which of course if the weight is lighter than your max, it’s going to be fast. [/quote] You basically said they do speed work every day. The only difference is them and you in this case are taking no more then 2 minutes to understand everything about your warm up set which might include the actual effects of it. If you want to limit it to the 5 minutes in the beginning of your training then fine but west side chose to maximize it, and turn it into a day.
[quote]
If you really think being quick, which is the by product of speed work is part of the equation please explain to me why powerlifters peak in their mid 30s-early 40s when it is common knowledge that they’re not at their fastest. Just look how olympic lifters, football players, and even track runners are all out of their prime by 30 because speed deteriorates with age. How fast or quick you are has minimal impact on how strong you are.[/quote]
You can not compare powerlifting doesn’t require nearly the endurance of football players, or track athletes. One all out shot or even 20, do not compare to the 41 necessary for one heat in a 100 meter nevermind a 60 minute game. Powerlifting does need more strength but being able to add speed+strength makes you a little bit more able to break boundaries
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
Efferding was just featured in Power magazine and said what he does and didn’t include any type of speed work. Also all the Russians with their high volume training there is nothing cut out for speed. As far as warming up, yes it should be fast but it’s not that you’re working on speed, it’s that you’re exerting as much force as you can which of course if the weight is lighter than your max, it’s going to be fast.
If you really think being quick, which is the by product of speed work is part of the equation please explain to me why powerlifters peak in their mid 30s-early 40s when it is common knowledge that they’re not at their fastest. Just look how olympic lifters, football players, and even track runners are all out of their prime by 30 because speed deteriorates with age. How fast or quick you are has minimal impact on how strong you are.[/quote]
First of all it is beginning to sound like you are simply defending your preconceived viewpoint instead of trying to find out what is optimal. Most answers are shades of grey not absolutes. Watch supertraining tv and you can actually watch Rhino speed deadlift and do mobility work etc… You are missing the science behind this methodology. The goal is to lift as fast as you can relative to the weight on the bar. Exerting as much force as possible as quickly as posssible IS the definition of power (P=w/t) Once again this is relative to the bar weight and power is usually optimized between 50 and 70 percent of your one rep max but is highly individual. The russians spend a lot of time training in this percentage range. Do you think they are trying to finish each lift as quickly as possible or are they going for 3 sec reps??? By lifting in these ranges and practicing “speed” you are in essence doing speed work. The goal is to then transfer that ingrained motor skill to heavier weights by accentuating momentum and hopefully blowing through sticking points. To say speed work isn’t important at all is silly.
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
If you really think being quick, which is the by product of speed work is part of the equation please explain to me why powerlifters peak in their mid 30s-early 40s when it is common knowledge that they’re not at their fastest. Just look how olympic lifters, football players, and even track runners are all out of their prime by 30 because speed deteriorates with age. How fast or quick you are has minimal impact on how strong you are.[/quote]
They may have slower absolute speed, but that is not what we are talking about.I can still blow past 20 year olds with a crossover dribble at 48, but i can’t reach any sort of top speed on a fast break. I can move 80% of my max faster than I could at 30. The combination of strength and speed is what is important…Shot putters need more speed than strength with a lighter implement. The more weight is being lifted the more strength is the limiting factor, but you still must have speed in the equation. You don’t need Usain Bolt speed, but you can’t be a marathon runner either…If you are already super explosive then you don’t have to focus on it, but you can’t totally ignore it forever or you will lose it…trust me.
Speed work does not work
[quote]bilski wrote:
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
If you really think being quick, which is the by product of speed work is part of the equation please explain to me why powerlifters peak in their mid 30s-early 40s when it is common knowledge that they’re not at their fastest. Just look how olympic lifters, football players, and even track runners are all out of their prime by 30 because speed deteriorates with age. How fast or quick you are has minimal impact on how strong you are.[/quote]
They may have slower absolute speed, but that is not what we are talking about.I can still blow past 20 year olds with a crossover dribble at 48, but i can’t reach any sort of top speed on a fast break. I can move 80% of my max faster than I could at 30. The combination of strength and speed is what is important…Shot putters need more speed than strength with a lighter implement. The more weight is being lifted the more strength is the limiting factor, but you still must have speed in the equation. You don’t need Usain Bolt speed, but you can’t be a marathon runner either…If you are already super explosive then you don’t have to focus on it, but you can’t totally ignore it forever or you will lose it…trust me.[/quote]
What we are talking about is rate of force development. Science and Practice of Strength Training by Zatsiorsky which is a well respected book and even recommended by Louie himself talks about how if an athletes max squat improved and his jump did not then rate of force development was the limiting factor, not maximal muscular strength.
No where does it say in the whole book that if your rate of force of development improves your 1RM or maximal muscular strength will improve. My first post was a picture of what Zatsiorsky suggest for maximal strength and it also doesn’t include speed work. Your cross over and self perceived speed on 80% are bad examples of why you think speed work works. I suggest you take a break from your mind and look into science books on the study of strength training and come back with a legit argument for the good of this forum.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Personally, I think it’s more important than any other training variable.[/quote]
Aren’t you the one that just posted your plan going into your next competition with a 95% DE day?
What does a 95% DE day look like in terms of sets/rest/reps/weight/bands/est?[/quote]
That’s in a transformation block. Which means everything is heavy as shit. The plan is 95% for 5 singles with whatever rest I need to not die on the next one. Usually, in my training, this is followed by a 2 week delayed transformation block but since I only had 5 weeks to train for nationals, I can’t really afford to waste 2 weeks. No bands or box for these.
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Personally, I think it’s more important than any other training variable.[/quote]
And what’s your argument for that? It is definitely not the most important. If it was you would be able to take a fast person and put him under a bar and make him squat a lot because speed is the most important variable. As I’ve stated earlier, look at all the world record holders. Most don’t even do speed work and most of them are over 30 when their peak speed has deteriorated [/quote]
What on earth is peak speed and where are you getting that it deteriorates when someone is over 30? I could understand if you mean performance decreases after 30 due to injury or mental burnout but speed as a physical measure of distance over time, on the other hand, I doubt magically starts going down once someone hits a certain age. Especially when smart training (like doing speed work) is involved.
Anyway, speed of movement is the most important training variable because you can’t lift a heavy weight slow. “But, what about ‘x’ guy who grinded ‘x’ weight out for ‘x’ amount of time?” I mean no one can lift maximal loads without maximal speed of motor unit recruitment and maximal speed of intermuscular coordination.
You can argue ad nauseam on the internet about stupid stuff like this. From personal experience, speed work has given me an 800+lb competition deadlift and has tremendously helped everyone I have ever trained.
To completely dismiss any training principle is limiting yourself and, if you do it, limiting the gains of others you train. Usually, those who do completely write-off once facet of training have some weird personal point to prove or they are trying to sell something.
On a side note, I don’t give a shit what other world record holders do. They already have records. I want to do more than that. So, I need more sophisticated training.
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
[quote]bilski wrote:
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
If you really think being quick, which is the by product of speed work is part of the equation please explain to me why powerlifters peak in their mid 30s-early 40s when it is common knowledge that they’re not at their fastest. Just look how olympic lifters, football players, and even track runners are all out of their prime by 30 because speed deteriorates with age. How fast or quick you are has minimal impact on how strong you are.[/quote]
They may have slower absolute speed, but that is not what we are talking about.I can still blow past 20 year olds with a crossover dribble at 48, but i can’t reach any sort of top speed on a fast break. I can move 80% of my max faster than I could at 30. The combination of strength and speed is what is important…Shot putters need more speed than strength with a lighter implement. The more weight is being lifted the more strength is the limiting factor, but you still must have speed in the equation. You don’t need Usain Bolt speed, but you can’t be a marathon runner either…If you are already super explosive then you don’t have to focus on it, but you can’t totally ignore it forever or you will lose it…trust me.[/quote]
What we are talking about is rate of force development. Science and Practice of Strength Training by Zatsiorsky which is a well respected book and even recommended by Louie himself talks about how if an athletes max squat improved and his jump did not then rate of force development was the limiting factor, not maximal muscular strength.
No where does it say in the whole book that if your rate of force of development improves your 1RM or maximal muscular strength will improve. My first post was a picture of what Zatsiorsky suggest for maximal strength and it also doesn’t include speed work. Your cross over and self perceived speed on 80% are bad examples of why you think speed work works. I suggest you take a break from your mind and look into science books on the study of strength training and come back with a legit argument for the good of this forum. [/quote]
There is more than one book that touches on this subject.
[quote]Rubsu wrote:
Speed work does not work[/quote]
But, it does though.
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
[quote]bilski wrote:
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
If you really think being quick, which is the by product of speed work is part of the equation please explain to me why powerlifters peak in their mid 30s-early 40s when it is common knowledge that they’re not at their fastest. Just look how olympic lifters, football players, and even track runners are all out of their prime by 30 because speed deteriorates with age. How fast or quick you are has minimal impact on how strong you are.[/quote]
They may have slower absolute speed, but that is not what we are talking about.I can still blow past 20 year olds with a crossover dribble at 48, but i can’t reach any sort of top speed on a fast break. I can move 80% of my max faster than I could at 30. The combination of strength and speed is what is important…Shot putters need more speed than strength with a lighter implement. The more weight is being lifted the more strength is the limiting factor, but you still must have speed in the equation. You don’t need Usain Bolt speed, but you can’t be a marathon runner either…If you are already super explosive then you don’t have to focus on it, but you can’t totally ignore it forever or you will lose it…trust me.[/quote]
What we are talking about is rate of force development. Science and Practice of Strength Training by Zatsiorsky which is a well respected book and even recommended by Louie himself talks about how if an athletes max squat improved and his jump did not then rate of force development was the limiting factor, not maximal muscular strength.
No where does it say in the whole book that if your rate of force of development improves your 1RM or maximal muscular strength will improve. My first post was a picture of what Zatsiorsky suggest for maximal strength and it also doesn’t include speed work. Your cross over and self perceived speed on 80% are bad examples of why you think speed work works. I suggest you take a break from your mind and look into science books on the study of strength training and come back with a legit argument for the good of this forum. [/quote]
The Russians also found that after training at 90% they had to train at a lighter percentage at least once to re-set their nervous system or they could not make continual progress at 90%+00. No amount of rest alone would reset the neuromuscular apparatus.
The reason that I feel that speed training could help for powerlifting is because we know that the highest force production occurs when one attempts to move somewhere between 42-68% of a max load as fast as possible. This is from Russian research. The very highest forces occur during a reversal of 42-68% max mass. The greatest tendon deformation occurs with the greatest force, and the faster the force rises (the jerk) the quicker the tendon can be deformed before shutting down muscular contraction. The greater the tendon gets deformed, the more it thickens to prevent future deformation.
GREAT posts STB and Mertdawg!
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
[quote]bilski wrote:
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
If you really think being quick, which is the by product of speed work is part of the equation please explain to me why powerlifters peak in their mid 30s-early 40s when it is common knowledge that they’re not at their fastest. Just look how olympic lifters, football players, and even track runners are all out of their prime by 30 because speed deteriorates with age. How fast or quick you are has minimal impact on how strong you are.[/quote]
They may have slower absolute speed, but that is not what we are talking about.I can still blow past 20 year olds with a crossover dribble at 48, but i can’t reach any sort of top speed on a fast break. I can move 80% of my max faster than I could at 30. The combination of strength and speed is what is important…Shot putters need more speed than strength with a lighter implement. The more weight is being lifted the more strength is the limiting factor, but you still must have speed in the equation. You don’t need Usain Bolt speed, but you can’t be a marathon runner either…If you are already super explosive then you don’t have to focus on it, but you can’t totally ignore it forever or you will lose it…trust me.[/quote]
What we are talking about is rate of force development. Science and Practice of Strength Training by Zatsiorsky which is a well respected book and even recommended by Louie himself talks about how if an athletes max squat improved and his jump did not then rate of force development was the limiting factor, not maximal muscular strength.
No where does it say in the whole book that if your rate of force of development improves your 1RM or maximal muscular strength will improve. My first post was a picture of what Zatsiorsky suggest for maximal strength and it also doesn’t include speed work. Your cross over and self perceived speed on 80% are bad examples of why you think speed work works. I suggest you take a break from your mind and look into science books on the study of strength training and come back with a legit argument for the good of this forum. [/quote]
The Russians also found that after training at 90% they had to train at a lighter percentage at least once to re-set their nervous system or they could not make continual progress at 90%+00. No amount of rest alone would reset the neuromuscular apparatus.
The reason that I feel that speed training could help for powerlifting is because we know that the highest force production occurs when one attempts to move somewhere between 42-68% of a max load as fast as possible. This is from Russian research. Of course you know its the speed/force curve. The very highest forces occur during a reversal of 42-68% max mass. The greatest tendon deformation occurs with the greatest force, and the faster the force rises (the jerk) the quicker the tendon can be deformed before shutting down muscular contraction. The greater the tendon gets deformed, the more it thickens to prevent future deformation.
[/quote]
Piggybacking off of that, people don’t seem to understand that Westside (most seem to be passively referring to westside when talking about speed work) works at relative training intensities over 85% on speed day. For example, a basic speed strength wave could be something like 55, 60, 65% on squats. Well, add to that the suggested 20-30% in band tension and also the suggested 20% of DE volume being over the suggested percentage wave, the majority of DE work is in an extremely high intensity zone.
So, with an actual fundamental understanding of the wave loading and how to progress through the different blocks (Westside uses an old Bulgarian block periodization system to progress to a meet) there is very rarely a time that speed work is being done with under 85%.
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
[quote]bilski wrote:
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
If you really think being quick, which is the by product of speed work is part of the equation please explain to me why powerlifters peak in their mid 30s-early 40s when it is common knowledge that they’re not at their fastest. Just look how olympic lifters, football players, and even track runners are all out of their prime by 30 because speed deteriorates with age. How fast or quick you are has minimal impact on how strong you are.[/quote]
They may have slower absolute speed, but that is not what we are talking about.I can still blow past 20 year olds with a crossover dribble at 48, but i can’t reach any sort of top speed on a fast break. I can move 80% of my max faster than I could at 30. The combination of strength and speed is what is important…Shot putters need more speed than strength with a lighter implement. The more weight is being lifted the more strength is the limiting factor, but you still must have speed in the equation. You don’t need Usain Bolt speed, but you can’t be a marathon runner either…If you are already super explosive then you don’t have to focus on it, but you can’t totally ignore it forever or you will lose it…trust me.[/quote]
What we are talking about is rate of force development. Science and Practice of Strength Training by Zatsiorsky which is a well respected book and even recommended by Louie himself talks about how if an athletes max squat improved and his jump did not then rate of force development was the limiting factor, not maximal muscular strength.
No where does it say in the whole book that if your rate of force of development improves your 1RM or maximal muscular strength will improve. My first post was a picture of what Zatsiorsky suggest for maximal strength and it also doesn’t include speed work. Your cross over and self perceived speed on 80% are bad examples of why you think speed work works. I suggest you take a break from your mind and look into science books on the study of strength training and come back with a legit argument for the good of this forum. [/quote]
I’m quite familiar with it and many many others… I’ve spent my 10,000 hours and a degree in Exercise Physiology studying these very topics. I didn’t say that speed training is used to increase maximal strength - it is used to increase ROFD. The deadlift is the example I gave prior because it is a concentric only movement that operates without the stretch reflex of the squat or bench press. I also broadly defined speed work to make sure there was no confusion that a dynamic effort day is the be all and end all. On the contrary, I find that the inclusion of many methods included higher rep work can be helpful. I think everyone should try out new things and see what works for them… Many many powerlifters swear by it and many don’t. Their are many very smart and educated people in the business and most find it useful to some degree. Furthermore, I pointed out the training programs of the best raw deadlifters use lower percent of their RPM with the intent and focus on speed. Lifting weights above 90% for all of your training is not optimal, so 'speed" training is one option used to fill in the gap to get you to the optimal stimulation neccessary to get stronger. I’ll try and be specific from here on to why there is a direct carry over…I am by no way saying that you are wrong - nothing here is Law or proven fact, I’m simply saying that there is both empirically and scientifically plenty of proof that this type of training can be benifically for more than one reason
Letâ??s look at certain aspects of training, including training for Rate of Force Development (RFD) and Strength. Firstly, maximal strength builds the foundation for all other forms of strength including explosive power. Itâ??s also been said that â??maximal strength is regarded as a pre-requisite for high-movement speed. Itâ??s impossible for athletes to generate a large force in a fast movement if they canâ??t develop similar or even greater force values in a slow motionâ?? (Zatsiorsky and Kramer). So, the stronger you are in relation to your bodyweight (relative strength), the more potential you have to be powerful. This goes for running, punching, kicking, throwing and jumping etc, however â??to be a strong athlete does not mean to be a power athlete.â?? (Zatsiorsky and Kramer)
A beginner can increase their strength very quickly, mainly due to their CNS (central nervous system) becoming more efficient. Fundamentally when they first start out, the new trainee may only be able to recruit half of their motor units within their muscle. Over time, and with proper strength training, their CNS will start to be able to recruit more motor units, therefore becoming stronger and more powerful.
The rate of force development (speed), is another aspect of power. The faster you are, the more explosive youâ??ll become. So what is speed and how do you develop it? As Zatsiorsky and Kramer state: â??If the time available for force development is (only) short, RFD is more important than maximal strength. So youâ??ll need to enhance not only maximal strength, but also dynamic strength (the force developed at a high velocity of movement)â??
Rate of force development (ROFD) is probably the most important and under-recognized area of applied science pertaining to strength training and athletics. ROFD essentially refers to the speed at which force can be produced. Aside from those sports requiring very precise movements (such as gymnastics and ballet), I canâ??t think of a single example in athletics or lifting that wouldnâ??t benefit from a faster ROFD. A faster ROFD results in quicker, more explosive movements and gets the bar moving sooner.
Letâ??s take a look at an example. Letâ??s say two people (lifter A and lifter B) are attempting a 500-lb deadlift. Both are capable of producing 500 lbs of force, but lifter A has a significantly faster ROFD. It may take lifter A two seconds to produce enough force to get the bar moving off the floor and four seconds to lock it out at the top. Lifter B, with an inferior ROFD, takes four seconds to get the bar moving off the floor and six seconds to get it to his knees. He reaches failure before locking out at the top.
As with most things in strength training, thereâ??s a neural explanation. On a neural level, ROFD means that typically high threshold motor units (MU) are recruited at an earlier absolute time. I emphasize earlier absolute time as the relative time defined as the recruitment relative to other motor units (recruitment order). It stays the same in slow and fast ROFD contractions (1). Slow twitch MU are recruited prior to fast twitch MU.
Despite popular belief, fast twitch MU are rarely (essentially never) active unless all slow twitch MU are active, and even if this was possible, it would not be desirable. Slow twitch MU produce force, and fast twitch MU produce more force. Together, slow and fast twitch MU produce more force than either could individually. In both types of MU, decreasing the absolute threshold time has significant implications on the amount of force produced.
High threshold MU can produce more force per stimulus than lower threshold MU. Therefore, when high threshold MU are active along with low threshold MU, more absolute force can be produced. Greater recruitment in a shorter amount of time increases the intramuscular tension more rapidly.
While you may be familiar with the idea of intramuscular tension, you may not have a clear understanding of its role in the initiation of movement. Typically, when the contractile elements of a muscle begin to produce force, the elastic elements of the muscle begin to lengthen. However, movement does not occur yet. It is not until the elastic elements of the muscle stretch sufficiently to increase the stiffness of the muscle that movement occurs.
The classic example is stretching a rubber band. When the rubber band is loose, the stiffness expressed across it is quite low. When the rubber band is stretched taut, the stiffness expressed across it is much higher. As a result, the time to reach peak force is dependent on the time course of this interaction between the contractile and elastic elements of a muscle. By having more motor neurons innervating the muscle fibers of any given muscle fire together, the stiffness of these elastic elements can be increased more rapidly, allowing a shorter latency between the initiation of force and the initiation of movement. This also allows subsequently recruited MU to capitalize on the stiffness created by MU that have been previously activated, increasing the total muscular force rapidly.
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
I suggest you take a break from your mind and look into science books on the study of strength training and come back with a legit argument for the good of this forum. [/quote]
Oh Yeah. This statement is rather immature and on one note rather funny… I haven’t heard one scientific statement in ANY of your posts. You JUST bought and read Zatsiorski’s book? I’ve read it probably 20 -30 times and used it in a handful of research papers. I’m not here to stir the pot, but let’s not make it personal…I see you have some REALLY nice SQ and DL numbers… if those translate to meets you are one your way to some world class numbers.
Don’t just throw away a training modality without spending some more time analyzing how it CAN work. There are things that might not work now that might work 20 years from now and vice versa. If they don’t, well at least you know.
As you get older,you’ll understand that it takes a little finesse and an open mind to keep improving… EVERYBODY at some point in their life says “If I only new then what I knew know”. Just keep an open mind…
[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
[quote]bilski wrote:
[quote]Mahoney wrote:
If you really think being quick, which is the by product of speed work is part of the equation please explain to me why powerlifters peak in their mid 30s-early 40s when it is common knowledge that they’re not at their fastest. Just look how olympic lifters, football players, and even track runners are all out of their prime by 30 because speed deteriorates with age. How fast or quick you are has minimal impact on how strong you are.[/quote]
They may have slower absolute speed, but that is not what we are talking about.I can still blow past 20 year olds with a crossover dribble at 48, but i can’t reach any sort of top speed on a fast break. I can move 80% of my max faster than I could at 30. The combination of strength and speed is what is important…Shot putters need more speed than strength with a lighter implement. The more weight is being lifted the more strength is the limiting factor, but you still must have speed in the equation. You don’t need Usain Bolt speed, but you can’t be a marathon runner either…If you are already super explosive then you don’t have to focus on it, but you can’t totally ignore it forever or you will lose it…trust me.[/quote]
What we are talking about is rate of force development. Science and Practice of Strength Training by Zatsiorsky which is a well respected book and even recommended by Louie himself talks about how if an athletes max squat improved and his jump did not then rate of force development was the limiting factor, not maximal muscular strength.
No where does it say in the whole book that if your rate of force of development improves your 1RM or maximal muscular strength will improve. My first post was a picture of what Zatsiorsky suggest for maximal strength and it also doesn’t include speed work. Your cross over and self perceived speed on 80% are bad examples of why you think speed work works. I suggest you take a break from your mind and look into science books on the study of strength training and come back with a legit argument for the good of this forum. [/quote]
The Russians also found that after training at 90% they had to train at a lighter percentage at least once to re-set their nervous system or they could not make continual progress at 90%+00. No amount of rest alone would reset the neuromuscular apparatus.
The reason that I feel that speed training could help for powerlifting is because we know that the highest force production occurs when one attempts to move somewhere between 42-68% of a max load as fast as possible. This is from Russian research. Of course you know its the speed/force curve. The very highest forces occur during a reversal of 42-68% max mass. The greatest tendon deformation occurs with the greatest force, and the faster the force rises (the jerk) the quicker the tendon can be deformed before shutting down muscular contraction. The greater the tendon gets deformed, the more it thickens to prevent future deformation.
[/quote]
Piggybacking off of that, people don’t seem to understand that Westside (most seem to be passively referring to westside when talking about speed work) works at relative training intensities over 85% on speed day. For example, a basic speed strength wave could be something like 55, 60, 65% on squats. Well, add to that the suggested 20-30% in band tension and also the suggested 20% of DE volume being over the suggested percentage wave, the majority of DE work is in an extremely high intensity zone.
So, with an actual fundamental understanding of the wave loading and how to progress through the different blocks (Westside uses an old Bulgarian block periodization system to progress to a meet) there is very rarely a time that speed work is being done with under 85%. [/quote]
Good Post. Louie says to START at 60% for raw lifters, but says 70% is maybe even better for the beginner (of course he’s changed this back and forth over the years… My favorite way of doing speed work for the squats was the same as Chuck V evolved to for a while at Westside … Do your usual speed work as the warm up into a max effort band Squat and then substitute the dynamic day for accessories/repition method et…
I really don’t have the time to sort though your arguments and agree/disagree/disprove your points. So I’ll just use a good counter example. As many of you know Mike Tuchscherer is one of the most technical, smartest, respected people in the powerlifting community. Someone with all his credentials with both lifting and coaching’s opinion means a lot more than anyone writing in this forum and a lot of people in the Powerlifting community. He does not believe speed work works for the reasons you’ll read in the article.