Opinions of Dr.Darden

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I have some of his books, which is irrelevant.

You’re a grown man who should decide for himself how he wants to experiment with an exercise program.

I say try the fucking thing for two to three months and see if it works for yourself!
[/quote]

I am not a grown man I’m a teenager that is why I am asking these questions. Because it would be better to learn from men, so perhaps I can find a solid program that I can always have in my pocket for gains as I go through my journey of weight lifting for the rest of my life. Why waste my healthy years where I’m not sore and grow like a weed. On a system that seems like its ran by fanaticals. On the other hand it would be idiotic to avoid a program that seems to be the miracle cure, and ignorant not to try everything.

I will try the program. FOR TWO TO THREE FUCKING MONTHS! Why would I not ask questions though so I can do the thing wrong. Not understand or respect the nature of the beast and the effects it has had on other lifters. Before you go into anything you need to know your situation, the expections and not be over confident.

-on the earlier posts. That makes a ton of sense that HIT is a system that tells you to balance your life, a good philosophy. I have listened to many wrestling instructors at camps talk about how in your pursuit of wrestling glory you can’t let it consume your or you find yourself after high school or college wrestling lost, in that you know nothing else.
I don’t see how Arthur Jones was a t-man more like a good ol boy. Granted he was a business elite, a film maker, explorer, he shot a bull elephant and ripped an alligators guts out that is bad ass along with creating a legacy that outlives him with his workout theories. That is awesome stuff, things that any one should use as a model in creating their legacy. But he also threatned people with violence. According to Bill Pearl used his gun and a rough tongue to manipulate his surroundings. While a true t-man like Arnold would use charisma and bull shitting to win over the situation. That is a t-man no one feels awkard and everyone is happy.
Proffesor X have you ever tried a HIT style training? And do you feel that really would have slowed you down in the progression of your physique if you would have done so?

22

Go to drdarden.com and ask questions there, you’ll get a lot of help from veteran HITers.

23

[quote]WS4JB wrote:
Read The New High Intensity Training

Used it to hit some p.r’s in the bench and squat. Including my first 300+ bench and a 300 lb squat for 20 reps.

If you don’t know how to push yourself to absolute failure, then it isn’t for you.

Dr. Darden has said that getting progressively stronger is the most important thing in bodybuilding, more important then hitting failure, his way is just one way to get there.[/quote]

btw good post thank you for the answers. I can definitly use this.

Your right I should and will, I am sorry if alot of my post son this come off as self serving. But there is alot of knowledgable people on this site I don’t want to get flamed off as this entire website has created every athletic, muscular and strength gain in the last year.

24

You will likely learn some worthwhile information. Even if it might be “only” something such as doing your rows a little differently, some particular superset, or this sort of thing. Finding a few valuable tips like that in a book is about the most that can usually be hoped for, and is worth learning.

Additionally, you will also learn a method that you might want to use at some times, or perhaps some workouts.

If you treat what Dr Darden says as as a way to train that can be productive, this is to the good.

If you take it as the the way to train, as one might due to his seeming to present things in that way (or perhaps one might say he actually does) then it could do more harm than good, IMO.

As for Dr Darden’s physique when he was younger: that was before he ever used HIT. He never looked like that again after becoming an HIT apostle. Just a fact. I ordinarily don’t mention it, but since his physique was cited above as a reason to give him credibility, the fact about how it was obtained does seem relevant.

25

BUMP

I am in a bit of a plateau, and I know a few HIT enthusiasts, as a result I just read one of Mentzers books and am seriously considering joining the HIT brigade. I just can’t imagine being at the gym less than 3 days a week.

May I ask what gains if any the OP got?
Are you still HITing 1 year on?

and what would the other posters say about Mentzers excercise selections and workout ordering?

26

The only time I saw gains from his routine is when I needed a break from volume. I mistakenly thought that my new PR’s were because of this new routine. In actuallity I just recovered from all the volume work I had done a few weeks before. I don’t like his exercise selection and always regressed when I used slo-mo training. I think it only works for short periods of time and even then, only when your body needs a break.

27

If you want to go HIT then in terms of order of quality:

  1. Arthur Jones’ Training Bulletin #1. Here’s a quotation from it that sums it up:

Performed in a proper manner, a total of only eight basic conventional exercises are capable of producing almost any degree of possible results â??and far more quickly than most people would believe; these exercises are:

(1) standing presses with a barbell or with heavy dumbbells,
(2) full squats,
(3) stiff-legged deadlifts,
(4) heavy barbell curls,
(5) regular-grip chinning,
(6) parallel dips,
(7) barbell wrist-curls,
(8) one-legged calf raises.

But in practice, most trainees avoid most of the above listed exercise â?? or attempt to replace them with other, “easier” movements which they hope will provide the same degree of results; probably because they are simply not willing to work as hard as they should for the production of best results.

If, over a period of two or three years of training, the above eight exercises are alternated with a few other basic exercises, then ANY degree of results that are possible with conventional equipment can be produced; these exercises are (9) leg presses, (10) thigh extensions, (11) thigh curls, (12) pulley triceps-curls, (13) behind-neck “pulldowns” performed properly, with a narrow, parallel grip, (14) shoulder shrugs, (15) standing side-raises with dumbbells, (16) the proper use of a “gripping” machine, (17) incline and decline presses with heavy dumbbells, (18) stiff-arm “pullovers” on a decline bench, (19) behind-neck presses, (20) sit-ups on a decline bench, (21) leg-raises on a steep incline bench, (22) “high pulls” â?? or front rowing with a barbell, (23) side bends with a dumbbell, (24) bent-forward rowing with a barbell.

But it should also be clearly understood that attempting to use all of the above listed exercises at the same time would be a major error; in most cases, not more than ten exercises should be practiced â?? and best degrees of results will almost always be produced if sets are limited to two, performed three times weekly.

[Key points, with some editorial comments]

  1. In order to involve all of the fibers of a particular muscle in an exercise, the muscle must be exposed to
    heavy resistance while in its position of full contraction. No matter how hard a muscle is worked in any other position, you are not involving the total number of available fibers. [Dubious]

  2. But simply working a muscle in its position of full contraction is not enough; while in that position, it
    must be worked to a point of momentary failure. [Untrue]

  3. This should be done in the performance of sets of at least six full repetitions and not more than twenty
    full repetitions; but in all cases, additional partial repetitions should also be performed until a point is
    reached where any amount of movement is impossible. [Need not be followed]

  4. Workouts should be designed to include every major muscular structure in the body, with emphasis on
    the largest muscular masses.

  5. Workouts should be outlined in such a fashion that the muscles are worked in their order-of-size; the
    largest muscles should be worked first, etc.

  6. Exercise movements should be performed as rapidly as possible consistent with safety considerations
    while maintaining proper form.

  7. The entire workout should be completed in not more than one and one-half hours; a total weekly
    training time of four and one-half hours.

  8. If a “split routine” involving six weekly workouts is used (and the author’s experience indicates that it
    seldom should be), then no single workout should exceed one hour in length â?? and total weekly
    training time should still be limited to about four and one-half hours. [Required for it to be HIT but not required generally.]

  9. In almost all cases, two sets of any one exercise are all that are required for maximum muscle-growth
    stimulation; and any additional exercise will reduce the production of results. In no case should more
    than three sets of any particular exercise be practiced. [Required for it to be HIT but not required generally.]

#2 Dr Darden’s books

Far and away dead last: Mike Mentzer’s published methods, as opposed to his actual methods which were entirely different.

28

I have no idea if people even enjoy weightlifting anymore. Regarding H.I.T, i think its a retarded method. very simple explanation as to why. Why would you bench 225 slowly if you cant bench it fast. regardless of this I have never and I repeat never seen a Mr. anything train using H.I.T. Guys like Louie Simmons and Glenn Penndlay, and Bill Star (very respected people in the weightlifting worl) have written extensively about this and the creator of this non sense arthur jones even admitted it was all a scam to sell as much nautilus machines as possible.

Again, i dont care if you pre exhaust/drop set/iso hol, with 50 second negatives and 20 minute positives the guy lifting benching 400 pounds is gonna be bigger then the guy H.I.T ing 225. And if this system worked so well dont you think every mr olympia would of used it. these guys do this for a living and i doubt they wouldnt train a better way if their was a better way to train after all their future depends on it. cut the shit and go lift some fucking weights dude.

29

I’ve done HIT before, after reading Dr. Darden’s book the New HIT. following the program purely wasn’t the best option for me. It left me lacking in strength and explosivness.

If you are looking for something different while still along the lines of HIT, I’d try using One main lift following maybe a 5x5 or CT’s methods and then use you assistance exercises in a HIT manner.

And while I’d consider Dorian to have a badass approach to training, I wouldn’t call it all out HIT. He wasn’t doing full body workouts.

30

[quote]Hazzyhazz24 wrote:
I have no idea if people even enjoy weightlifting anymore. Regarding H.I.T, i think its a retarded method. very simple explanation as to why. Why would you bench 225 slowly if you cant bench it fast. [/quote]

Well, if you read the origin of HIT – Training Bulletin #1 – you won’t find slow lifting in there, nor the various other worsenings that were added with time.

31

I haven’t read “Training Bulletin”, and the truth is I have recently overtrained so i think HIT could make a nice break.

Unfortunately I can’t imagine lifting weights slowly, doing about 5 sets and waiting a week in between, although I also feel I should at least try some of what the HITers say.

One character that really interests me in this is Dorian Yates, who won Mr Olympia 6 times, and at least claimed to use HIT. Also having lived more recently, I imagine, would have a more evolved perspective than Mentzer and therefore better advice.

The only thing is I can’t find a single book.

32

[quote]WS4JB wrote:

[quote]LilDaDDyDreW wrote:
Dr. Who?? Enough said.[/quote]

Says the faceless man on some internet forum.

Dr. Darden has forgot more about bodybuilding then you know, show some proper respect you jackass.

Lets see how your physique stacks up against his when he was winning national bodybuilding shows back when your dad was still pre-pubescent.

Also, I take it you’ve gotten your doctorate and published at least a few books if you’ve got such high standards, right ?[/quote]

Yeah, even if you don’t buy into a lot of his theories (I personally think he’s gone the way of Mentzer and just taken things too far), the guy’s been involved in the bodybuilding/exercise study aspect of the sport for probably longer than you’ve been alive. All that’s been “said” is that you don’t know as much as you pretend to.

S

33

[quote]lnname wrote:
BUMP

I am in a bit of a plateau, and I know a few HIT enthusiasts, as a result I just read one of Mentzers books and am seriously considering joining the HIT brigade. I just can’t imagine being at the gym less than 3 days a week.

May I ask what gains if any the OP got?
Are you still HITing 1 year on?

and what would the other posters say about Mentzers excercise selections and workout ordering?[/quote]

If you’re interested in HIT, I would recommend reading up on Dorian Yates’ routine. His approach takes the principles of HIT and applies them to bodybuilding. You preserve the concept of one working set to failure per exercise and all-out intensity, but use a body part split with multiple exercises per body part. This way you get more complete development of your physique, while preserving the economy and intensity of HIT. You also get to go to the gym a bit more often than with pure HIT.

The only modification I would suggest is maybe adding a few more warm-up sets to Dorian’s routine, especially as you go heavier. This is to preserve the joints. Also, the most important thing to progressing is adding weight to the bar and eating enough.

34

[quote]Bloodandiron wrote:

If you’re interested in HIT, I would recommend reading up on Dorian Yates’ routine. His approach takes the principles of HIT and applies them to bodybuilding. You preserve the concept of one working set to failure per exercise and all-out intensity, but use a body part split with multiple exercises per body part. This way you get more complete development of your physique, while preserving the economy and intensity of HIT. You also get to go to the gym a bit more often than with pure HIT.[/quote]

This is exactly what I want to do… where can I find a copy of dorians routine? wikapedia says the only book he’s written is his autobiography.

35

[quote]lnname wrote:
I haven’t read “Training Bulletin”, and the truth is I have recently overtrained so i think HIT could make a nice break.

Unfortunately I can’t imagine lifting weights slowly, doing about 5 sets and waiting a week in between, although I also feel I should at least try some of what the HITers say.
[/quote]

I mistakenly did this. What a retard I was! I think the book was High Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way. Save yourself money and the time wasted trying. Training once every 4-7 days?? That is each workout, not each body part. That never made sense but I went along with it. When progress slowed, I thought it was because of overtraining … because that’s what I read.

Sorry, I’m very opinionated in that I believe what Mentzer wrote was garbage, but I have no scientific evidence to back it up.

36

[quote]lnname wrote:

[quote]Bloodandiron wrote:

If you’re interested in HIT, I would recommend reading up on Dorian Yates’ routine. His approach takes the principles of HIT and applies them to bodybuilding. You preserve the concept of one working set to failure per exercise and all-out intensity, but use a body part split with multiple exercises per body part. This way you get more complete development of your physique, while preserving the economy and intensity of HIT. You also get to go to the gym a bit more often than with pure HIT.[/quote]

This is exactly what I want to do… where can I find a copy of dorians routine? wikapedia says the only book he’s written is his autobiography.
[/quote]

C_C wrote about this A LOT in the thread, Cephalic_Carnage How Do You Train?

37

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5130624493073861368#

I found dorians film blood and guts on google. Not sure how much I have learned, it has almost no talking in it. I’ve also started reading c_c s thread, I have to say its bloody long.

Still you don’t get anything without hard work.

38

I don’t know if that last post will come up. At any rate

blood and guts(full length):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5130624493073861368#

On a post that didn’t show up I said I didn’t learn much. Actually I was wrong, I looked at the notes I made,and the structure he is using is very similar to mentzers “ideal” workout in the book u mentioned,

i.e pre fatigueing muscles with isolation movements (e.g. leg extensions) before doing large movements (e.g. leg presses). Infact his leg workout is almost identical except that he adds a few extra movements and warms up for each excercise individually.

The clear difference is that he is not taking a week in between to recover, and he is not using the 4 up 4 down cadence. I’m sure Mentzer would argue that he is drugged up to the eyeballs, and there is no denying he probably eats a better diet than most of us so he would recover quicker, but there is no denying that this works.

back on topic: are any of the old posters around? have your views changed? and OP did dardens workouts workout for you?

39

I thought I’d put up his routine (on the DVD),

CHEST

* Incline Bench - 185, 225, 315, 405X6
* Seated Press - 1,1, then his training partner does a set.
* Incline Dumbbell Flyes - 80, 110X8
* Cable crossovers X 1
* Seated Incline Curls (both arms at the same time)
* Some stretching between sets
* Cambered Standing Curls X2
* Machine Curls (Single Arm) poor left biceps from the 1994 tear

LEGS

* Leg Extensions X1
* Leg Press (PERFECT ROM) X1
* Leg Extension X111 (last is heavy set)
* Leg Press Over 1000 lbs X3
* Hack Squats X11
* Lying Leg Curls X1
* Stiff Legged Deads w/ wraps X1
* Single Leg Hamstrings Curls X1
* Standing Calf Raises X11
* Seated Calves X1

BACK

* Seated PulloversX111
* Machine Pull ins X11
* Bent Over Barbell Rows X11 (with 4 plates for reps, textbook perfect form)
* One Arm Machine Rows X1
* Bent Over Machine Rows For delts (side lateral types) X1
* Bent Over Dumbbell Rows for delts (side lateral types) X1
* Weighted Hyperextensions
* Stiff legged deadlifts X11
* Smith Machine Military Press X111 (1,2,3 plates)
* Seated Dumbbell Side Laterals X11
* Cable Side Laterals X1
* Shrugs X1
* Long bar tri pulldowns X111
* Nose breakers X1
* One arm cable reverse curls X1

So a lot more sets than Mentzer says.

40

sorry quadrouple post.

One last thought is that the video is just over an hour long, i don’t know if they edited out some shots of him resting, doing warmups etc, but thats pretty damn fast to get through all that weight.