Only One Truth

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
62

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Maybe we’re already there and were holding the doors open for you.[/quote]

Heh, dude, then keep holding, but get a chair or somethin’… I do intend to get there someday, but I hope that isn’t today, tomorrow, nor the next; there’s a number of things I’d like to do here first…

[quote]makkun wrote:
For real? I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in heaven. When I’m dead, I’m dead. [/quote]

Fair enough; then I suppose that the people I listed may very well believe that they will get into Heaven quicker… I’m not convinced, but to each their own.

I’ll raise my glass to you, but I think you’ll still do allright on your own.

-FC

63

What are the orthodox people praying for if G-d is not able to influence your free-will?

That just seems like a waste of prayer because as stated people have free-will which isn’t influenced by G-d much less our prayers. So what are these orhtodox people praying for? That G-d go against the “free” will?

64

[quote]Croooz wrote:
What are the orthodox people praying for if G-d is not able to influence your free-will?

That just seems like a waste of prayer because as stated people have free-will which isn’t influenced by G-d much less our prayers. So what are these orhtodox people praying for? That G-d go against the “free” will?[/quote]

You Pray for mercy using what we call The Jesus Prayer: Lord Jesus Christ, Son of GOD, have mercy upon me, a sinner. You can substitute any persons name instead of me so you can pray for them. You can even pray for Satan. Also God has will stronger then ours so you pray that His will has mercy on your free will. I hope you are understanding all of this and take the coldness out of your hearts. laters pk

65

There is only one truth:

“Cause Stone Cold said so!”

I think too many people get caught up in the fine print. Live a good life, believe in yourself and the man upstairs, have compassion for your fellow man, and don’t buy from tele-marketers. Pretty much everything else is just filler.

66

Here’s a model. The scientific descriptions I give are legitimate scientific interpretations made by agnostic or atheist or in cases theistic/deistic scientists. There are other interpretations of this science, but the one’s I will give are very mainstream science.

Quantum physics sets up a situation in which human beings can actually make choices without the dichotomy violating the laws of physics. In other words, multiple choices can all be non-violating choices. The laws of physics eliminate possibilities, or set probabilities on them but do not determine which of two valid choices will take place.

All of the probabilities of the universe can be described by a set of mathematical wave equations, but when the universe is exposed to observation (or in some models, a moment of irreversibility) the wave wave equations collapse and one and only one reality emerges. In this sense, the future is still open to probabilistic laws.

Because we have free will, we affect the wave equation of the universe by our choices. Since our precise actions can not be DETERMINED by the laws of physics despite complete knowledge of the initial state of the universe, then our choice of one of two valid choices is not determined by the laws of physics.

Chaos theory posits the “butterfly effect” which specifically means that an “action”, even one two small to be be observed even in principal by any scientific method of observation affects the probabalistic outcome of the future wave equation. Prayer would be an example of a small action such as this.

Chaos theory is the most awe inspiring theory in all of science. Imagine first that 100 years from now, the world will be populated by say 20 billion individual human beings. Picture some of those 100 billion human beings.
Literally, quite literally, if you now slouch in your chair, sneeze, breath deeply, pick your nose, say a prayer, think a thought and those 100 billion people who would have been their had you not done that will be replaced by 100 billion different people. Not one of the original people will ever be born. Now, its ok because they are only part of a mathematical wave equation right now.

I said on an earlier thread, and it is scientifically true, that a prayer, in theory, could have prevented the Tsunami a few months back from happening (at least in that specific spot and within that, say, 100 year time frame).

Again, it was hard for me to get this point across, but if you change one Greek iota from one day 100 years ago, you change the outcome of the wave equation enough that neither you, nor any of us would have been born. The course of events that lead one sperm cell with a 24 hour lifespan out of the 10 billion your father produced in that timespan to be the one that made contact would have needed only an immeasurably small push in a different direction to make some other sperm cell the king for a day, and someone else to be in your place. This is not to mention the chaotic system of the cellular development of your parents, and random mutations in DNA in every cell of all of your ancestors, any chenge within would have prevented you from being.

So we live in a fallen universe. Our exact universe is not the one God intended, but it can be returned to the right path. Its like Plinko on the price is right. The disk has headed off in the wrong direction, but if Bob Barker farts, it could still end up back on $25,000. The problem is that because we are sinful, we can not willfully choose to make all 100% perfect choices that would be necessary to fix things. That is why we have to accept God’s will in place of our own. As in AA we are powerless because we can try to choose best and still make the wrong choice. The only choice is to voluntarily kill your personal free will. Anyone who gives up there free will to God is inevitably Orthodox. First I pray for what I want, because I’m a baby, and my Daddy likes to hear what’s on my mind, and then I give that up and pray Thy will be done.

I heard that Pope JPII sometimes prayed 6 hours a day. Orthodox monks pray 24 hours a day because they train themselves to breath each breath a prayer.

If you read this, please don’t get angry. Just laugh out loud if you want. Just remember, the laws of physics can not explain how the heck little black shapes on a computer screen typed by someone 1000 miles away can make you laugh.

Now on a serious note…

67

[quote]Massif wrote:
There is only one truth:

“Cause Stone Cold said so!”

I think too many people get caught up in the fine print. Live a good life, believe in yourself and the man upstairs, have compassion for your fellow man, and don’t buy from tele-marketers. Pretty much everything else is just filler.[/quote]

Words to live by. Especially the tele-marketer part.

68

[quote]Croooz wrote:
Here’s some food for thought. If you agree that scripture is the Truth then why does your religion advocate the need for the sinner to do something in order to be saved? So if I have to do something for my salvation then I am a key player in my salvation…which means I determine my salvation. If G-d can only save me once I allow Him then I was in command of my salvation…[/quote]

Salvation is a dynamic process, not a static one. By confessing faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, we make the choice of inviting Him to be the Operator of our free will and in our lives. Our duty is simply to co-operate with His laws and teachings to the best of our knowledge & abilities.

Salvation is a gift which EVERYONE receives, but this gift proves blissful for some while tormentful for others. It is our co-operation with God’s laws and teachings that the gift of salvation becomes blissful in the afterlife. YOU make the choice whether or not to co-operate with God - and how well you co-operated with God in this life determines your disposition in the next.

Here’s an analogy:
Imagine an atomic bomb is going to obliterate your city. If you believe this, you’re forced to make a choice - to evacuate or stick around. If you stick around you’ll perish. If you evacuate, how well you prepared to flee from the city will determine whether or not you survive. Such is the Life within the Orthodox Christian Faith.

Peace be with you.

69

[quote]Croooz wrote:
Pkradgreek,
So then if we decide whether or not we turn to G-d then we are in control… In this equation G-d seems to need us to daily to choose…we are in essense working WITH G-d for our salvation. Interesting…but where is this found in the scriptures?[/quote]

The revelation of the Christian Faith is NOT fully encompassed within the Scriptures. It’s encompassed by the Church which Jesus Christ established in 33 AD (Orthodox Christianity). The Bible even testifies of this fact.

1 St. Timothy 3:14
“These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”

Although the Bible speaks of fasting, liturgical worship, and many other practices and teachings which Jesus Christ transmitted to His Apostles and the faithful multitudes, the Bible itself fails to disclose sufficient details on these topics. The earliest scripture found in the New Testament was written in 52 AD - almost 2 decades AFTER the Orthodox Church was established. The early Church had no New Testament yet lived the Christian Life. It’s critical to remember that the Bible didn’t produce the Church, the Church produced the Bible. Although the Bible is the written masterpiece of the Church, it does NOT encompass all matters of the Christian Faith.

*pkradgreek echoes what the early Church preached

Peace be with him and peace be with you.

70

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/./1/.1114582839090.somewh.gif

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
A bunch of cool stuff…
[/quote]

Y’know, sitting through electromagentics classess, I was always envious of an electron’s ability to integrate over a given area in such a remarkably quick time… Why, the mathematical intelligence of any fundamental particle seems to exceed any man, and their computational ability any computer…

Does nature really work from a differential equation? Sure, it allows us to predict some things, but is that how things really work?

These models work great sometimes, kinda-sorta at others, and sometimes predict that a corvette will spontaneously evolve in my driveway. It seems that textbooks tend to dwell on the successess, and not the failures. Truthfully, I don’t have a huge problem with that.

The question is: Are we desigining a mathematical model that could only exist in the head of God? I tell ya, I’m waiting for the solution to one of the equations to consist of God jumping out and yelling “Hah!”; He’s in there somewhere, I know it.

This part kind of confused me:

Is a theory “scientifically true”?

Ah, but if someone farted in Japan 273.543 years ago, and this influences me in a fashion that does not allow me to voluntarily kill my free will, how is this my fault? What can I do to combat this? Grab a gun and shoot the butterfly? Am I screwed from the get-go?

I hope I did not come across as a strawman here; that really wasn’t my intention. Heh, I don’t have problems with science; in one year, I could be teaching your children (well, not YOUR children, but somebody’s). I have come to my own terms between science and religion that let me sleep at night.

Amen, brother; I’m not convinced that this really matters.

-FC

71

[quote]Croooz wrote:
What I read is we are sinners. Are very nature is of corrupt seed.
-Are you basically saying that man is merely sick and requires G-d to perform the work as doctor and heal us.
or
-Are we just merely hurt and require someone to help us in our hurt?[/quote]
Orthodox Christianity teaches that man is in a fallen condition; he is spiritually sick and needs to be made well. Man can only be made well by first accepting Jesus Christ, and then abiding by Christ’s commandments (which can be likened to spiritual therapies).

For instance, when Jesus Christ commands us to love and pray for our enemies and all those who curse us, we attempt to swallow our pride by choking out any internal hatreds; initially we must do this by forcefully acting kind, even though our spirit is in harsh disaccord with our behavior. Given the same challenge, within time, our spirit is only in mild disaccord with our behavior. Through a life-long struggle to abide by this command, man may genuinely come to love even his arch enemy.

Jesus Christ showed His love for those who crucified Him by pleading to His Father in heaven for their forgiveness, even as He stood nailed upon the Cross in agony! What a beautiful spectacle of unconditional love. Perhaps had I hung on that Cross with the power which Jesus Christ could summon (twelve legions of twelve angels), I would’ve hurled lightning bolts from the heavens to strike down each & all my enemies. Then again, I realize I’m full of sin and far from holy. We are called to be holy because God is holy. We are called to be perfect because God is perfect. In the beginning we were created in His image, but have since fallen away. Only with God’s help can we be redeemed back into that image in which we were created, and God has shown us The Way, the Truth, and the Life. The decision to co-operate is ours.

Peace be with you.

72

[quote]Croooz wrote:
So in keeping with the right vs wrong post:
-You who have chosen G-d are therefore right. What was it about you that makes you better than those who decide not to choose G-d? Not better? Then what is it? Why did you choose the way of salvation and they did not? Belief? Grace? Faith?[/quote]
We are called by grace and react with faith. Everyone experiences this grace, but not everyone reacts with faith. Many shut their hearts to the truth.

There’s a saying:
If you take one step closer to Jesus Christ, He’ll take two steps closer to you. If you take one step away from Jesus Christ, He’ll take two steps away from you.

Keep this in mind. Peace be with you.

73

[quote]Croooz wrote:
Do you believe you had these in more abundance, as a sinner, than your fellow man? Was it intellect? What could it be that would make a man not choose G-d? Free-will? If a man is dead in his sins and operates under his sinful nature then his will is governed by this nature which rebels against G-d so his will is only free to act contrary to the desire of G-d.[/quote]
Pardon me for intruding in your dialogue with pkradgreek, but you ask some thought-provoking questions.

I don’t know what the formula is for harvesting faith or rather from where it is derived, but I can attest that prayer and reading the Bible, even from a historical point of view, is of great assistance. In addition, reading the lives of early Christians and their unwavering convictions (even unto death), the Saints, contemplating about the metaphysical realm - it all just seems to perfectly connect with Christ and His teachings. It’s also important to be humble in spirit and sensitive to any grace which God bestows upon you. Instead of having a calloused, “God doesn’t exist attitude”, just give in and admit that you don’t really know for sure. See what happens…

In dealing with your questions, God is constantly bestowing His grace upon humans. Whether we accept it or not is another story. Regarding the intellect, God may lure humans according to their enchantment with metaphysical contemplation while others He may lure in through the beauty and simplicity of His teachings.
Either way, faith is anchored in the heart and rationalized by the mind. Everyone possesses unique attributes which are integral fractions of their whole personality. I have quality A which works to inspire me to draw closer to God. You may have quality B which works in an another manner but inspires you at my same intensity level to do the same.

All men are dead in their sins and operate under the sinful nature of a fallen will which tends to reject God, or rather, continuously fails to embrace Him. This is not to say that a human’s will is unable to act according to God. This just means that we have to fight against our will (by abiding by Christ’s laws & commands) and place the primacy of God’s will ahead of our own. As we do this, we realize this small pebble of struggle becomes an avalanche of eagerness and zeal to perform God’s will rather than desiring to rebel against it.

DISCLAIMER: The perspectives expressed herein are my own personal opinions and may or may not coincide with the teachings of the Orthodox Christian Church.

Peace be with you.

74

The only one truth is:

Have faith in yourself and you don’t need any religion.

75

PK,

Are you trying to suggest that any other church other than the orthodox church is a lie? I’ve always been taught that the church is the “body of believers” regardless of denomination; I would be interested in seeing the scriptural justification for your statment. Honestly though I am ignorant about that concept, and would like to hear what you have to say.

76

I disagree with a lot here but everyone is entitled to their opinion. The atomic bomb analogy.

So people that stay in the city go against God’s will? People that flee are following his will? Now there are a hell of a lot of people who have no belief in God who by that analogy would flee the city. If the atomic bomb represents fundamental evil they would still flee because you do not need a God to know right from wrong. All religions have more or less the same moral values and teachings, this isn’t a big coincidence, it’s because humans have the intelligence to understand the concept of right and wrong and can judge what is and what’s not on their own. No higher being is required.

I would like to ask a question here. If an atheist lived what by christian standards would be considered a good and moral life, would he still go to hell? I believe that most christians believe this to be the case, but can I ask you, would you want a God so morally reprehensible as this?

A person who has rejected God and still leads a good life should be just as worthy of Gods eternal reward? If I asked you to kill another man would you refuse to do it because the bible says it is wrong only?

77

[quote]ConorM wrote:
I would like to ask a question here. If an atheist lived what by christian standards would be considered a good and moral life, would he still go to hell? I believe that most christians believe this to be the case, but can I ask you, would you want a God so morally reprehensible as this?
[/quote]

It has nothing to do with good, moral, or standards. That’s religion. There is no such thing as a religion in God’s eyes.

Will an athiest go to heaven because he played the same games as the reigious? No - and neither will the religious folk that think that the observance of a bunch of rules equates to righteousness.

Heaven is for those who have sought a relationship with God. Everyone else will be incredibly shocked at how warm their accomadations will be in the afterlife.

That’s all there is to it - having a relationship with Him gets you in. Not a relationship on your terms, but a relationship on his terms.

What’s morally reprehensible about keeping out those who rejected you and letting your friends in? Sounds kind of like a party to me.

78

[quote]ConorM wrote:
I would like to ask a question here. If an atheist lived what by christian standards would be considered a good and moral life, would he still go to hell? I believe that most christians believe this to be the case, but can I ask you, would you want a God so morally reprehensible as this?

[/quote]

Interesting question, but fundamentally flawed.

The “Christian standard” of a “good and moral life” INCLUDES belief in God and Jesus Christ as Lord. Therefore, it is impossible for an atheist to attain the “Christian standard” of a “good and moral life.”

Matt

79

Mert: This isn’t really the thread to hash it out, but I think your characterizations of chaos theory and quantum physics are a bit flawed. It is unlikely that microscopic events would affect the probability of an macroscopically caused event, within any reasonable period of time. Perhaps I’m wrong.

Also, the whole “wave functions” thing in Quantum Physics is not agreed upon… some mystically inspired physicists have taken it upon themselves to take what WAS a simple observational principal (the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal) and turn it into a virtual religion, full of all sorts of metaphysical connotations.

80

And finally after all we get to the heart of the matter. This is not a discussion of Truth but Lineage. I’ve seen it time and time again. True practitioners of martial arts trace their art back to it’s roots and only then is what they learn of any merit. Only after a thorough examination of the hierarchal tree can we see who predated what and it is that date which is value.

So then with this new revelation you have posted then everyone not following the teaching of the Apostolic Fathers is wrong and destined for damnation. It’s quite convenient to hold on to this belief since the Bible isn’t the final word but the Church and the Apostolic Fathers.

So now we have the Word of G-d which requires inerpretation from only those in the lineage. I’m sorry but does everyone else see the parallels with the Catholic Church? With the differences in Mary’s position or station I see no difference in Orthodoxy and Catholism. Actually I seem them as fraternal twins fighting for a seperate but supreme position.

Here is where my Orthodox theology is immature but then again perhaps we just haven’t gotten to Orthodoxy in seminary.

I will say this that those men who long ago began to reform from these teachings have without questions labeled the “man is sick” heresy as…well heresy. In it’s time it was called Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism. The Canons of Dort, the Belgian Confession, the Hedelburg Confessions, the Westminster Confessions of Faith and many others have pointed to this heresy against the Christian faith.

See the problem is when you bring in “assistance” to the Bible makes the Bible now no longer the authority. With the Bible no longer being the authority we are left to interpretations which some put into books and call them a host of names. In the end, if you take away the other teachings of your religion then your religion falls apart. Same goes for Catholics and their additions to the Bible.

I applaud you for your zeal. However there is little difference between your organized religious beliefs and that of the Catholic Church. It is my belief that if you thouroughly want an understanding of why it is what you believe then delve into the theology. Not religious theology but each individual theology and see for yourself. If after soteriology, theology of salvation, you still believe in Pelagius or Semi-Pelagious beliefs then so be it.

I was a Catholic, born & raised. There wasn’t a more ardent supporter of my religion than me…or perhaps the Crusades. Anyway, I left the Catholic church because I was after a relationship and not a hierarchy. Thankfully with having scripture be the ultimate authority I am not bound by the swaying of a pontiff or any such others.

Some need or believe in the hierarchy of their religion…I’m not one of those. My prayer is G-d work in your life to expose those things which are deceptions detracting you from a relationship with G-d and His word.

81

[quote]rainjack wrote:

There is no such thing as a religion in God’s eyes.

[/quote]

While I agree with you on most of those points, I have to pull a nit-pick on this one (NASB):

James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Sorry for the nit-pick, but I do see your point.

Matt