Any patriarch or pope being infallable is a complete joke. Being infallable goes totally against what was taught by Jesus Christ in that we should humble ourselves and always ask for mercy from GOD. To make you infallable is to make you perfect and perfection is only in GOD. laters pk
[quote]pkradgreek wrote:
The Crusades and the Inquisition are not true Christian rights of passage. they demonized the True message from Christ. laters pk[/quote]
Pkredgreek: I don’t feel like instilling anger in others this week. Except of course the inbred Mormons because as pagans I never really felt that our prayer and fasting did much to help them. I know lots of good Mormon people. Most of them got tricked into believing that it was just another Christian denomonation.
I do know what Jesus says about people like Joseph Smith: better the had a stone tied around their neck and that they were cast into the sea…no! better that they had never been born.
[quote]jaranda wrote:
I can wait until we (human race) evolve and stop needing to believe on deities.
JA[/quote]
The need to believe in deities, it seems, is a basic human need that is inherent in all of us. You may be Atheist, but I would bet that science has taken place of a belief in a higher being. Perhaps, even subconsciously.
Social theorists like Emile Durkhiem (sp?) believed that all people have a desire to be religious (although, I think spiritual would have been a better way to say it). He was one of the few contemporaries of Karl Marx’s that said communism wouldn’t work, because of communism’s denial of religion.
Sorry for the digression . 
Dustin
Only one truth? Yes indeed, there can only be one truth. Do eople think that with the unbelievable amount of religions out there that they believe in the one true faith? Does the diversity of religion and the fact they can’t all be right not point to the fact that all religion is based on falsehood? The likelihood of your faith (whatever that may be) being the one true faith seems much more unlikely than if they were all wrong.
What I am trying to say is arguing over who’s faith is the ‘true’ one is bs pure and simple. No religion is based on fact so discussions are limitied as you believe blindly what you’ve grown up with in most cases.
I promised myself some time ago that I wouldn’t get myself into threads full of religious baiting and bashing…and somehow I allowed myself to get sucked into this one…
Lesson learned (again…!)
Peace…
Mufasa
[quote]JeffR wrote:
Matthew, kaz, pkradgreek,
I’m tired of you guys trying to convince everyone of the primacy of your Christian deity.
[/quote]
Are you talking to me? Surely not, I simply asked for a Scripture reference (still waiting for the actual ref. from PK…).
Wondering,
Matthew
[quote]doogie wrote:
JeffR made me pee myself.[/quote]
Me too. And dare I say, in a good way… 
I agree - Mummu rules (besides it sounds very much like a German word for that special part of female biology…)!
Well, anything is better than being washed away by the barrage of REAL HOLY TRUTH(S) we’ve been subjected to on all channels lately. Even lothario’s sun cult sounds more and more appealing.
JeffR, you are my saviour! Can I declare yours’ as the only REAL TRUTH? That would give me peace of mind.
Makkun
[quote]Matthew9v9 wrote:
I simply asked for a Scripture reference (still waiting for the actual ref. from PK…)[/quote]
I’ll shed some light to address your inquiry.
Taken from:
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sects1_e.htm
Another blessing is an invisible strength. It, however, exists in the outward realm which can be observed by its existence or absence; it is an Apostolic continuity. From the time of the Apostles, blessings were given to the believers in the sacrament of baptism, holy communion, the laying on of hands (ordination of the clergy), and others. Those who accomplished these sacraments were at first the Apostles, then the episcopate and clergy. The right to perform the sacraments of the laying on of hands was passed on exclusively by Apostolic succession, since the Apostles selected bishops, priests, and deacons. Apostolic succession is like a sacred fire, from which one candle lights the others. If the fire is extinguished or the Apostolic chain of succession is broken, then there are no true spiritual leaders or valid sacraments. The means of salvation for the believers are lost. This is the reason that ever since the Apostles’ time, the rite of Apostolic succession was always faithfully observed, such that the bishops passed the succession on to deserving bishops. Thus, the laying on of hands comes from the first Apostles. The bishops who fall into heresy or behave unfittingly were deposed and lost the right to perform the sacraments and to participate in the consecration of new bishops.
In our time, only a few churches exist in which this Apostolic succession presents no disbelief. The Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church, and several non-orthodox eastern churches such as the Coptic Church. Modern “Christian” denominations, in principle, reject the necessity of succession of the Apostles and clergy. Thus, for this reason alone, they reject the Church of the first century and cannot be called the true Church.
Apostolic succession is expressed in the Bible.
2 Timothy 1:6
“Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.”
St. Paul reminds Timothy, his disciple, that he was the one who transmitted the power of the Holy Spirit into him to fulfill the sacrament of ordination through the laying on of his hands.
The Orthodox Church, in accordance with holy tradition, continues to ordain new priests in this exact manner. Any priest who has not partaken in the sacrament of ordination and can’t trace his lineage back to the Twelve Apostles lacks the authority to be classified as a genuine presbyter of Christ’s Church.
If you need a couple more Biblical references on the transmittance of the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands, and how this is an essential component in any church that claims to have the grace of Christ, simply inform me and I’ll be happy to divulge further information.
Peace be with you!
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
I promised myself some time ago that I wouldn’t get myself into threads full of religious baiting and bashing…and somehow I allowed myself to get sucked into this one…
Lesson learned (again…)!
Mufasa[/quote]
You know what they say… If you can’t take the heat, get outta the kitchen. Come back when you’ve theologically matured. Until then, keep praying with a humble spirit.
P.S. you failed to provide me with a zip code. Guess you were just faking interests after whining about how these threads aren’t spiritual or uplifting. To each his own though…
As i’ve learned Orthodoxy is not a religion, it is the Spiritual healing of the heart. There are great parallelisms with Buddism except for the most important fact that Christians believe and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. The importance of prayer while they have meditation, fasting, spiritual fathers, etc. laters pk
i did not start the thread in order to debate anyone. i started it so as to make people go back and look at history and analyze for themselves. Sadly this stuff is not taught in school and i wish i had this wisdom when i was getting “educated”. it would have been very interesting. laters pk
Makkun and Doogie,
Thanks!!!
Mummu will encircle you with his mist!!!
Embrace it!!!
JeffR
P.S. Makkun, I am pleased that you and I could have had such heated arguments and still remain friendly (love!!!).
Theological maturity?
I think you meant Orthodox theology. Not sure what kind of debate you would have with two people who know the same about a subject. Basically that isn’t a debate unless you 2 disagree and I’m sure someone isn’t going to study something they don’t believe.
Here’s some food for thought. If you agree that scripture is the Truth then why does your religion advocate the need for the sinner to do something in order to be saved? So if I have to do something for my salvation then I am a key player in my salvation…which means I determine my salvation. If G-d can only save me once I allow Him then I was in command of my salvation…
The other question is that if man’s fallen nature is that of sinful man how can I, in my filth, decide that I will now repent. Out of the blue I’ve come to the conclusion that I need G-d, so then I will choose G-d and then after I’ve done all the decision making G-d is free to work in my life…only as far as I let G-d…???
Lot of me, me, me, I, I, I…not really an all powerful, all knowing G-d. Seems to me G-d’s stuck without us and we’re stuck without G-d. So it’s us filthy sinners who run things.
Great post, crooz.
What you are trying to describe as being in command of your own salvation is really ‘free-will’. The right to choose or reject God. We exercise that right on a daily basis.
Just one thing - You severely underestimate God’s power. He needs nothing from us. He wants it to be given to him out of love. the only thing God is ‘stuck without us’ about is our relationship with him.
This is my faith I guess. He created us, not so we can spend our time obsessing over whether or not we’ve obeyed a list of rules, but because he wanted a relationship.
It’s kind of like lifting - if you get so caught up in the how to’s and the why for’s of lifting - you soon lose the joy. The reason for going to the gym in the first place.
But I could be wrong.
[quote]Croooz wrote:
Theological maturity?
I think you meant Orthodox theology. Not sure what kind of debate you would have with two people who know the same about a subject. Basically that isn’t a debate unless you 2 disagree and I’m sure someone isn’t going to study something they don’t believe.
If you don’t like a certain training program how do you come to that conclusion that it sucks for you without studying it adequately or trying it out for yourself.
Here’s some food for thought. If you agree that scripture is the Truth then why does your religion advocate the need for the sinner to do something in order to be saved? So if I have to do something for my salvation then I am a key player in my salvation…which means I determine my salvation. If G-d can only save me once I allow Him then I was in command of my salvation…
The other question is that if man’s fallen nature is that of sinful man how can I, in my filth, decide that I will now repent. Out of the blue I’ve come to the conclusion that I need G-d, so then I will choose G-d and then after I’ve done all the decision making G-d is free to work in my life…only as far as I let G-d…???
Lot of me, me, me, I, I, I…not really an all powerful, all knowing G-d. Seems to me G-d’s stuck without us and we’re stuck without G-d. So it’s us filthy sinners who run things.
[/quote]
I was a little confused here, but Yes we do have free will and that is why we need to take action for our own salvation. When you die you will be Judged and depending on how prepared you are to feel God will determine whether you are in so called Paradise or Hell. Like adding alcohol to smooth skin or to skin filled with cuts. The alcohol being the same substance having two different effects, one being cooling the other being pain. laters pk
Thanks RainJack
Pkradgreek,
So then if we decide whether or not we turn to G-d then we are in control. G-d is powerless without us. In this equation G-d seems to need us to daily to choose…we are in essense working WITH G-d for our salvation. Interesting…but where is this found in the scriptures?
What I read is we are sinners. Are very nature is of corrupt seed.
-Are you basically saying that man is merely sick and requires G-d to perform the work as doctor and heal us.
or
-Are we just merely hurt and require someone to help us in our hurt?
So in keeping with the right vs wrong post:
-You who have chosen G-d are therefore right. What was it about you that makes you better than those who decide not to choose G-d? Not better? Then what is it? Why did you choose the way of salvation and they did not? Belief? Grace? Faith?
Do you believe you had these in more abundance, as a sinner, than your fellow man? Was it intellect? What could it be that would make a man not choose G-d? Free-will? If a man is dead in his sins and operates under his sinful nature then his will is governed by this nature which rebels against G-d so his will is only free to act contrary to the desire of G-d.
Before posting a knee-jerk reaction to my questions/statements please give them some solid thought. If you think these questions are easily answered then you have contemplated this before and have come to an answer or you don’t want to bother or believe what you have been led to believe without question where these beliefs originated.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Just one thing - You severely underestimate God’s power. He needs nothing from us. He wants it to be given to him out of love. the only thing God is ‘stuck without us’ about is our relationship with him.
This is my faith I guess. He created us, not so we can spend our time obsessing over whether or not we’ve obeyed a list of rules, but because he wanted a relationship.
It’s kind of like lifting - if you get so caught up in the how to’s and the why for’s of lifting - you soon lose the joy. The reason for going to the gym in the first place.
But I could be wrong.
[/quote]
Heh, this is cool; I think it may the best of the lot. I may have to reflect on it for a while and pass it on to someone else…
My question to those involved in this thread:
Do you really believe, that as a Roman Catholic, or a Mormon, or a Baptist, or Mummuian, or what have you, that you will get into Heaven (or equivalent) quicker than the others?
-FC
[quote]FlawlessCowboy wrote:
Do you really believe, that as a Roman Catholic, or a Mormon, or a Baptist, or Mummuian, or what have you, that you will get into Heaven (or equivalent) quicker than the others?
[/quote]
Maybe we’re already there and were holding the doors open for you.
[quote]Croooz wrote:
Here’s some food for thought. If you agree that scripture is the Truth then why does your religion advocate the need for the sinner to do something in order to be saved? So if I have to do something for my salvation then I am a key player in my salvation…which means I determine my salvation. If G-d can only save me once I allow Him then I was in command of my salvation…[/quote]
In orthodoxy there are no actions necessary for salvation. Salvation “requires” what might be called repentance, but which means something like falling down on the ground. It means you have no free will any more, or have chosen to give your free will to God. Once you do that, you are part of what you might call Heaven. You can be tempted though to pick back up your willfullness. Sacraments like Baptism, Eucharist and Confession, as well as fasting give you strength to resist temptation, but they are not necessary for salvation. That would make God petty. Now the Romans have made it a sin not to fast or go to church on obligatory days. In orthodoxy, fasting is exercise, and if you don’t need it, you don’t need it. Anyone on earth who dies with an honest intention to give their will to God becomes baptized by their death. (Because they are catecumans by this intention).
In answer to your question, how can you repent if you are sinful: because the Orthodox people are praying for you.
To be clear, what I am giving to you is not an elitist personal opinion of mine. I am just giving you the Orthodox theology relating to your question.
[quote]FlawlessCowboy wrote:
…
My question to those involved in this thread:
Do you really believe, that as a Roman Catholic, or a Mormon, or a Baptist, or Mummuian, or what have you, that you will get into Heaven (or equivalent) quicker than the others?
-FC
[/quote]
For real? I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in heaven. When I’m dead, I’m dead.
Except if JeffR saves my soul in the name of Mummu, off course!
Makkun