Only One Truth

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
82

[quote]der Koning wrote:
PK,

Are you trying to suggest that any other church other than the orthodox church is a lie? I’ve always been taught that the church is the “body of believers” regardless of denomination; I would be interested in seeing the scriptural justification for your statment. Honestly though I am ignorant about that concept, and would like to hear what you have to say.[/quote]

Is the concept of heresy clear in people’s minds. BS has been around since Satan tricked Adam and Eve. Satan believes that Jesus Christ is God, it does not mean he is saved. Also not all so called Orthodox churches are genuinely Orthodox. Sadly the church of greece is no longer, considering it follows the Franco Latin Calendar and is in union with other non Orthodox churches. This is not to say that all the churches in Greece belong to the church of greece. Praise the Lord for that. laters pk

83

[quote]Mr. Moose wrote:
The only one truth is:

Have faith in yourself and you don’t need any religion.[/quote]

Sadly you express what heresy has done to people’s soul because of organized religion.
laters pk

84

here is a link that can answer a lot of questions.

http://ehellenism.com/HaveFaith01B.asx

85

[quote]ConorM wrote:
The atomic bomb analogy.

So people that stay in the city go against God’s will? People that flee are following his will? Now there are a hell of a lot of people who have no belief in God who by that analogy would flee the city. If the atomic bomb represents fundamental evil they would still flee because you do not need a God to know right from wrong. All religions have more or less the same moral values and teachings, this isn’t a big coincidence, it’s because humans have the intelligence to understand the concept of right and wrong and can judge what is and what’s not on their own. No higher being is required.[/quote]
Not so. The people who stuck around the city will perish, because they did not believe. The people who decided to flee because they believed, but failed to prepare accordingly, shall also perish. They may’ve forgotten to fill the car up with gas, or taken the wrong route which led to a traffic jam on the expressway, or made a few unnecessary pit stops before fleeing, like going to extract jewelry from the safety deposit box at the bank. The ones who survive are the ones who, upon believing, jump in their cars and immediately drive down salvation avenue which links into holiness boulevard and then connects with heaven’s expressway, according to God’s map which shows us the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Only those who follow God’s map and prepare accordingly shall survive.

Peace be with you.

86

[quote]ConorM wrote:
I would like to ask a question here. If an atheist lived what by christian standards would be considered a good and moral life, would he still go to hell?[/quote]
If an athiest lived according to the Christian standards, meaning ALL of Christ’s commandments, and laws, and teachings, as contained with His Church, would he go to hell?

Standards like maintaining an active prayer life and practicing the Jesus Prayer. Battling internal thoughts of lust, greed, & pride. Dedicating time to visit God’s household, refraining from sins of the flesh (premarital sex, masterbation, etc.), giving alms to the poor, visiting the sick & needy, showing compassion for others (including your enemy) versus taking revenge. Accepting sufferings and persecution with a humble, thankful spirit. Dismantling pride and vanity by maintaining a meek & lowly demeanor. There are many more standards & morals I could outline, but these are the ones that fly into my mind this second. If an athiest followed these “rules”, I ponder that somewhere down the line he’d be led to a firm conviction in Jesus Christ, thus giving him an opportunity to avert hell. Give it a try.

87

PK,

Are you a member the “orthodox church” to draw closer to Jesus or do you like the self-exaltation of saying you go to the “only true church” ?

Unless you give me BIBLICAL proof,I’m not buying this “apostolic succesion” tripe. It sounds like a bunch man-made of self-aggrandizing LIES.

88

[quote]Croooz wrote:
And finally after all we get to the heart of the matter. This is not a discussion of Truth but Lineage.[/quote]

Not really. The discussion is still about truth, but lineage is critical because it hacks away at the heart of the hydra instead of trying to slice off its multiple heads. We are to partake in the Christian Life according to the way in which Jesus Christ and the early Church pronounced it. Any deviation, whether conscious or unconscious, is heretical and dangerous in that it may ultimately lead to our damnation.

For instance, I can call myself a Christian reverend, veer away from Orthodox Christianity, and start my own denomination. I can teach people how to fast: drink a 12-pack of beer and eat 12 hot dogs a day. I can teach people how to worship: go to the gym and start singing AC/DC’s hell’s bells. I can teach people how to read the Bible via my own personal interpretation: St. Mark 16:15, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” means that we need to go on a cross-country mission to every kennel in North America and preach to dogs & cats about Jesus Christ, and then head to Africa and preach to the lions and elephants, etc. That would be ludicrous!

How we know that something is authentic is if it can be traced back to what Jesus Christ and the early Church preached. Why is this important? Because God has set the standard, God has shown us the proper way. Any deviation places us at the risk of damnation, for we have rejected the style or teaching which God has conveyed through His Church which He Himself ordained.

Galatians 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleannness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Heresy is any teaching that deviates from the teachings of Jesus Christ and the early Church. How can we compare what the early Church taught and what our church teaches? Vigorous research.

Most people claim they have no time to conduct such research. Well, think about the time we spend at the gym to condition our physique (which one day shall be devoured by worms & maggots). Or even the time we spend watching television or bumming around on the net. If only we put such efforts and concern into our soul.

Peace be with you.

89

[quote]Croooz wrote:
So now we have the Word of G-d which requires inerpretation from only those in the lineage. I’m sorry but does everyone else see the parallels with the Catholic Church? With the differences in Mary’s position or station I see no difference in Orthodoxy and Catholism. Actually I seem them as fraternal twins fighting for a seperate but supreme position.[/quote]
If you see no difference between Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism, it’s obvious you’ve barely scratched the surface.

copied/pasted from a previous post:

Here’s a list of heresies/innovations which the Roman Catholic Church implemented throughout the ages:
1-filioque
2-papal infallibility
3-purgatory
4-altering the azymes of the Eucharist (from leavened bread to unleavened bread, ie. crackers/wafers)
*their Eucharist has further been adjusted to a Bloodless Host
5-altering the sacrament of baptism (from a full triple immersion to sprinkling on the forehead)
6-altering the sacrament of chrismation (from the seal being set directly after baptism to the separate ritual of confirmation)
7-progressive revelations (belief the church learns more and more about God as time goes on)
8-the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary (the belief the Virgin Mary lacked any human will)
9-dogma on original sin (guilt transmittance)
10-indulgences & certificates
11-heaven/hell as creations of God
12-concept of Actus Purus
13-altering the Paschalion in direct conflict with the First Ecumenical Council so that it no longer corresponds with the Jewish Passover
14-concept of Divine Justice (ie. to appease the devil for all the sins of humanity, God had to pay a ransom to His own creation, the evil one, so that humanity could gain access to heaven)
15-ability for Saints to lose their sanctity AFTER death (ie. St. Christopher who was canonized but later demoted)

Adding to or subtracting from the Faith which Jesus Christ and the early Church pronounced is heretical and dangerous. If you’re truly interested in the matter, I encourage you to conduct further research on early Church traditions, teachings, and practices.

Peace be with you.

90

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Croooz wrote:

For instance, I can call myself a Christian reverend, veer away from Orthodox Christianity, and start my own denomination. I can teach people how to fast: drink a 12-pack of beer and eat 12 hot dogs a day. I can teach people how to worship: go to the gym and start singing AC/DC’s hell’s bells. I can teach people how to read the Bible via my own personal interpretation: St. Mark 16:15, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” means that we need to go on a cross-country mission to every kennel in North America and preach to dogs & cats about Jesus Christ, and then head to Africa and preach to the lions and elephants, etc. That would be ludicrous!

How we know that something is authentic is if it can be traced back to what Jesus Christ and the early Chruch preached. Why is this important? Because God has set the standard, God has shown us the proper way. Any deviation places us at the risk of damnation, for we have rejected the style or teaching which God has conveyed through His Church which He Himself ordained.

Galatians 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleannness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Heresy is any teaching that deviates from the teachings of Jesus Christ and the early Church. How can we compare what the early Church taught and what our church teaches? Vigorous research.

Most people claim they have no time to conduct such research. Well, think about the time we spend at the gym to condition our physique (which one day shall be devoured by worms & maggots). Or even the time we spend watching television or bumming around on the net. If only we put such efforts and concern into our soul.

Peace be with you.

[/quote]

These are reasonable statements. One must search for the truth. But I can’t help but get the feeling that the emphasis on lineage is meant to give certain people a false sense of superiority.

Interestingly enough Jehovah’s witness also claim THEY’RE the only true church and the rest of us (including the orthodox church)are apostates.

91

[quote]der Koning wrote:
PK,

Are you a member the “orthodox church” to draw closer to Jesus or do you like the self-exaltation of saying you go to the “only true church” ?

Unless you give me BIBLICAL proof,I’m not buying this “apostolic succesion” tripe. It sounds like a bunch man-made of self-aggrandizing LIES.[/quote]
Q:What came first, the Bible or the Church?
A:The Church (est. 33 AD)
*The first scripture in the Bible was recorded around 52 AD, almost two full decades after the Church was established.

Q:Was the Bible as we know it today available to Christians before the 4th century?
A:No. Nobody on earth possessed the Bible in its completed form until after the year 367 AD.
*In 367 AD, the Orthodox Church gathered together all scriptures circulating within the Roman Empire bearing the slightest mark of Christianity. The Orthodox Church sifted through hundreds of epistles and other texts and canonized the ones deemed holy while leaving out those deemed heretical (ie. gospel of Thomas, gospel of Peter, and some scriptures bearing Paul’s signature which were unveiled as written by imposters/opponents of the true Christian Faith). The Bible was compiled hundreds of years after the Apostles documented their experiences about God in writing.

Q:Does the Bible testify of its own authority or does it testify of the authority of the Church?
A:The Bible testifies of the authority of the Church.
*Refer to 1 Timothy 3:15.

Q:Does the Bible encompass the fullness of Truth revealed to humanity by Jesus Christ and the early Church?
A:No. Although the Bible is a spiritual guide exceedingly revered by all Christians, it does not encompass the fullness of Truth which Jesus Christ and the early Church proclaimed.
*Refer to 2 Thessalonians 2:15

Jesus Christ calls humans to live the Life according to the fullness of the Faith. Although the Bible is a general roadmap steering us in the right direction, it does not express the fullness of the Faith by the measure by which we’re called to experience It.

Pray and read this:
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sola_scriptura_john_whiteford.htm

Peace be with you.

92

Please note how it is Jesus Christ AND the early Church…AND…AND…AND???

Since you have taken the Bible out of the place of authority and placed the writings of the early church in the bible’s place then this answers your question. It can not become any more circular if you tried to make it.

Yours is a religion which is clinging to its lineage and pointing the same as the answer. Your lineage is the truth and yet the bible is not because the lineage came first? Last I checked there was an old testament to the Bible but let’s continue to ignore that as well.

Yours is the one truth. I find it funny your quote of Galations and yet with all this man still has the werewithal to come to Christ…? Interesting. G-d has given 99% needed for salvation and we almighty sinners must complete G-d’s plan with our 1%… Wow.

But again this is not a post about truth but the truth in lineage. Matthew 7:21-23…“I never knew you…”

93

[quote]der Koning wrote:
Interestingly enough Jehovah’s witness also claim THEY’RE the only true church and the rest of us (including the orthodox church)are apostates.[/quote]
I would refer you to the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea in 325 AD where a proponent of their heresy, bishop Arius, was condemned for preaching that Jesus Christ is not God but merely a creation of God. Bishop Arius’ followers were called Arians. They were excommunicated from the Church in the 4th century for persisting in this false teaching. Most people don’t know this, but Jehovah’s witnesses are simply modern day Arians. The Church defeated them in theological battles centuries ago but they have since revived once again.
*Also interesting to note is that Arians were not part of the Orthodox Church when the Bible was compiled in its entirety, yet Jehovah’s wintesses today uphold the Bible exactly as the Othodox Church canonized it, thereby submitting to the authority of the Orthodox Church who excommunicated them hundreds of years ago.

I’ve actually chased away Jehovah’s witnesses after throwing such concepts at them. Kind of funny being that they’re so relentless in preaching their religious doctrines.

Apostolic succession involves both Apostolic lineage and Apostolic teaching. Arius had Apostolic lineage but he lost valid Apostolic succession when he preached contrary to Apostolic teaching.

Any others whom Arius ordained lack the grace of Christ, because he himself lost Apostolic succession. Thus, the lineage of Jehovah’s witnesses amounts to absolutely nothing.

Peace be with you.

94

[quote]pkradgreek wrote:
here is a link that can answer a lot of questions.

http://ehellenism.com/HaveFaith01B.asx[/quote]

wanted to bump that excellent link again. good stuff!

95

Sorry guys, its tough to read all this stuff about “getting in” etc. The church is literally, not figuratively Jesus’s body/soma. A member of that body is physically part of Jesus. Where are you trying to get in to?

And as far as faith saving you, I’m not positive, but I don’t think any of the quotations from the bible about faith say that faith will save you. They say that if you have faith you will be saved, but not that it’s a cause and effect relationship.

Anyone on the right path moving in the right direction is Orthodox, but to a fallen person, the path is a maze and you may think you’re on the right path and be getting yourself stuck.

The prayers of the faithful spread grace to the world which helps people find their way on the path to become part of Jesus’ body. Once you are baptized and sealed, you can make the right decisions so long as you are willing (or unwilling in a manner of speaking)

Anyone and theoretically everyone can be saved-I have even heard that those not saved will never have been-via our good old quantum wave function-but everone in heaven is an Orthodox Christian.

96

[quote]Croooz wrote:
Please note how it is Jesus Christ AND the early Church…AND…AND…AND???

Since you have taken the Bible out of the place of authority and placed the writings of the early church in the bible’s place then this answers your question. It can not become any more circular if you tried to make it.

Yours is a religion which is clinging to its lineage and pointing the same as the answer. Your lineage is the truth and yet the bible is not because the lineage came first? Last I checked there was an old testament to the Bible but let’s continue to ignore that as well.

Yours is the one truth. I find it funny your quote of Galations and yet with all this man still has the werewithal to come to Christ…? Interesting. G-d has given 99% needed for salvation and we almighty sinners must complete G-d’s plan with our 1%… Wow.

But again this is not a post about truth but the truth in lineage. Matthew 7:21-23…“I never knew you…”[/quote]

We decided to compile the new testament around 50 AD because we wanted to standardize our liturgical communion service readings. This communion service was practiced from the first days after pentechost and was formerly compiled and used in Jerusalem and other cities by 50AD by the apostles and James of Jerusalem-who wrote the oldest one.

So basically we asked the apostles who had written their memoirs to pick and choose and tidy them up a bit and send them out to all the churches so we could maintain unity in the Liturgy.

If you don’t believe me, get up and go to an orthodox church and ask any of the apostles I just mentioned.

Tomorrow evening would be a good time.

97

[quote]Croooz wrote:
Please note how it is Jesus Christ AND the early Church…AND…AND…AND???[/quote]
Ask yourself this. How did you come to know Jesus Christ? Did He show up to you in a divine vision and teach you everything about Himself, or did you rely upon the revelation of others (ie. the Apostles & the Saints)? Were you ordained by Jesus Christ to lead His Church? Did you walk with Jesus Christ in the flesh for 3 years, absorbing every one of His teachings? No. But you’re relying on the accounts of those who actually did when you pick up the Bible and profess the Christian Faith.

Now, do you think the Apostles and Saints transmitted the Christian Faith by conveying everything in writing? Of’ course not! In the same way that Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, preached the Faith, so did the Apostles, themselves consisting of the early Church. Only later on did they begin putting things in writing, and this is after they’d been preaching for many, many years! You need to remember that the Christian Faith was transmitted orally first and then in written form.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
“Therefore brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by WORD or our epistle.”

2 Thessalonians 3:6
“But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.”

To deny a tradition of the early Church simply because it’s not conveyed within the Bible is a fallacy which even the Bible testifies against doing.

Apostolic succession is one such tradition.

Peace be with you.

98

Croooz, you are indeed a master of the strawman tactic.

[quote]Croooz wrote:
Since you have taken the Bible out of the place of authority and placed the writings of the early church in the bible’s place then this answers your question. It can not become any more circular if you tried to make it.

Yours is a religion which is clinging to its lineage and pointing the same as the answer. Your lineage is the truth and yet the bible is not because the lineage came first? Last I checked there was an old testament to the Bible but let’s continue to ignore that as well.

Yours is the one truth. I find it funny your quote of Galations and yet with all this man still has the werewithal to come to Christ…? Interesting. G-d has given 99% needed for salvation and we almighty sinners must complete G-d’s plan with our 1%… Wow.[/quote]
Excellent diversion to every single post I’ve directed at you, but I’ll respond in the simplest of manners.

Jesus Christ established the Orthodox Christian Church in 33 AD at Pentecost when the Apostles were endowed with the grace of the Holy Spirit as recorded in Acts of the Apostles. The Apostles gained many converts and believers and added to the ranks of the Church. These believers, Orthodox Christians, were taught to abide within the framework of the Church and all Her holy traditions, according to the manner by which Jesus Christ orally taught the Apostles. The Apostles and believers later spread the Faith by oral and written transmission. The writings were later compiled into what we call the Holy Bible, but these writings were never intended to encompass the entirety of the Christian Faith; they were meant to supplement the oral teachings of the Church, not to extinguish them. In Orthodox Christianity, the Old & New Testament (the written traditions) are set at equal value with the oral traditions.

*You seem to have lost me with the final part of your post. Clarify that and I’ll be happy to reply.

Peace be with you.

99

[quote]Croooz wrote:
But again this is not a post about truth but the truth in lineage. Matthew 7:21-23…“I never knew you…”[/quote]

If you want to start mudslinging dude, I can spit out condemning verses from the Bible right back at ya, but I don’t think this would be conducive to a healthy discussion, nor would it be efficacious to my soul or yours. Let’s not degrade this thread.

Peace be with you.

100

Correct me if I’m wrong, but EVERY church will either claim or abrogate (sole) apostolic succession. It would be strange not to.

Why wouldn’t legitimacy arguments stem from lineage? Every Christian sect says that they have kept the original way better than the others or something, and that any of their doctrinal or liturgical modernizations is inconsequential to the substance of The Church (true in the case of Catholics, nyah nyah). To hate on this practice is to be completely non-Christian. If you’re into that.

101

Put another way, The Truth is inextricably linked to the truth in lineage. Which makes obvious sense to me…