extol,
i didn’t know you liked to plagarize too.
http://www.usenetreligion.com/archive/index.php/t-615065.html
(at least al shades cited his sources)
[quote]extol7extol wrote:
Your comment about Satan is a non sequitur. First, Satan is a fallen angel, and not a man. Jesus “takes hold” of men, not angels:
“Since, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might cause to cease the one having the power of death, that is, the devil; and might set these free, as many as by fear of death were subject to slavery through all the lifetime to live. For indeed He does not take hold of angels, “but He takes hold of” “the seed of Abraham.” For this reason He ought by all means to become like His brothers, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the things respecting God, in order to make propitiation for the sins of His people” (Hebrews 2:14-17).
And second, Satan and/or demons do not know, and thus do not believe the mercy of God. God shows and will show no mercy to Satan and the demons.[/quote]
The same uncreated energies which pour forth unto humanity shall also pour upon His entire creation in the Day of Judgment. Saints & angels, sinners & demons - all will experience the same infinite love which God will transmit in the Second Coming. Or have you not read that death plagues not only humanity, but all of creation as well? What you misinterpret is that angels as well as demons know the mercy of God, but demons are so embittered (especially Satan) by His glorification of man that they refuse to repent of their falling away; ultimately choosing destruction because of their pride which has been offended, a pride which regurgitates a spirit of hatred rather than humility and love.
Ezekiel 28:12
“Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre [Satan] and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings. By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries . . .”
When God’s uncreated energies fuse together with all of creation, His infinite love will prove to be hellish torment for Satan & the rebellious demons. Satan and the demons have access to repentance, but they refuse to repent because it’s contrary to their calloused will. They know of God’s mercy, yet in their hatred for God’s jewel of creation [humanity], they refuse to make peace and thus prefer to war against man to cause as many of us to plunder into sin as possible and thereby pave the path for us to suffer their same dismal fate.
extol7extol, did you ever watch the movie Flying Daggers? There was a man named Leo who loved a woman named Mei for 3 years. Mei came to love Jin, another man, whom she only knew for 3 days. When Leo learned of this, he killed Mei because he said that if she would not love him exclusively, he could not stand for Mei to love anyone else. The demons in their jealousy of man share this same twisted idealogy.
*Awesome movie, great martial arts/graphics btw.
Peace be with you.
[quote]extol7extol wrote:
…if someone believes right gospel doctrine, then he will AUTOMATICALLY bring forth good works. There’s no such thing as truly believing right gospel doctrine and not having good works.
[/quote]
You preach yet another heresy. Show me a scripture which substantiates your statement. Salvation is not automatic; God calls for our cooperation during every step of the way. That’s why if & when we falter, there’s a dire need to repent.
bumped…
mertdawg wrote:
Dear extol7extol,
Not that it will make any difference, but we Orthodox do not believe that the sinner has power to get themselves saved. We believe that the Christian basically can do one thing, which translated means to “fall down” or stop, or perhaps something like “call for help” but that we then are saved by having our wills submitted to God.
Now when you talk about predestination or determinism, what exactly do you mean? Do you believe that 1) every movement of every atom in the universe is predetermined from the dawn of time to the end? Or is it 2) just necessary for you to believe that those who are saved have been known from the beginning?
There is a big difference. The first of these is a meaningless statement because atoms/motions are not real-they are observations about the universe and so you are basically using terms that don’t mesh with terms I am familiar with.
The second simply makes God subject to the bible and the flow of time. (as would the first, except that the first uses terms unfortunately in a context which is meaningless).
Which one is it? I’ve asked several times.
Also, I have not seen a response to the proposal which comes from scholarly sources quite outside of the Orthodox Church that the Liturgy of James the Lord’s brother was in full practice in Jerusalem by the 40’s AD, and that the Archeological conclusion is that the new testament was compiled by the apostles for the PURPOSE of being the reading in this service that paralleled that Torah in the Jewish services.
How can you , yourself cite James’ epistle, and yet not accept the service which he composed for which the Gospels were MERELY a part?
The apostles did not go around reading the bible to people. They told people about Jesus and his teaching and if they were interested in converting, they came to the first part of the Divine service called the Liturgy of the Word (or Catecheumans: meaning those preparing for baptism) and over the course of a year of preparation they would hear all of the Gospels.
Basically my questions to you are:
- What do you really mean by predestination: ALL ACTIONS, or just WHO’S SAVED WHO’S NOT?
And
- Why do you believe this? On the bible ALONE, or for other reasons (ie logic, science, etc.?
and
- If because of the Bible, why do you take it, a small portion of our Divine Liturgy written to instruct Catecheumans, tear it out of our Liturgy, and hold it up (as an idol of true worship) while rejecting the complete liturgy from which it came, and the Apostolic tradition that produced it?
You have failed on several accounts to respond at all to these. I can sonsider that you have passed over it without noticing before (as those not baptized and confirmed in the Orthodox Faith can have their eye’s easily steared by the demons at your side daily).
Ask God that HIS WILL not YOURS be done, sincerely and with a broken heart.
[quote]edgecrusher wrote:
extol,
i didn’t know you liked to plagarize too.
http://www.usenetreligion.com/archive/index.php/t-615065.html
(at least al shades cited his sources)[/quote]
Well, you are right that I should have cited the website (the source). But guess what? My brother in Christ wrote the article. I have his permission to paste such an article without putting his name to it, as if it was his own idea and not from Scripture. I too, have also written an article. And he can paste it anywhere he wants without putting my name to it. We are of like mind. It’s OUR website:
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Bottom line: the medical community should continue to advance in its treatments and cures but it’d be revolutionary if science converged with concepts from the spiritual realm for the cure of diseases as well.[/quote]
I’m sorry stellar, but I’m going to have to disagree with you here. It would be a tremendous step back in our progress to try to converge scientific ideas with superstition like what you propose.
Science relies on measurable results from experimentation. There’s never going to be a “faith-o-meter” that measures how much Jesus someone has in them. We are never going to have a “demon tricorder” that detects the presence of demons in the schizophrenic. If you stop to think about it for a second, you will know why.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
stellar_horizon wrote:
Bottom line: the medical community should continue to advance in its treatments and cures but it’d be revolutionary if science converged with concepts from the spiritual realm for the cure of diseases as well.
I’m sorry stellar, but I’m going to have to disagree with you here. It would be a tremendous step back in our progress to try to converge scientific ideas with superstition like what you propose.
Science relies on measurable results from experimentation. There’s never going to be a “faith-o-meter” that measures how much Jesus someone has in them. We are never going to have a “demon tricorder” that detects the presence of demons in the schizophrenic. If you stop to think about it for a second, you will know why.[/quote]
My wife being a doctor and my father an Orthodox Priest for 30 years since his conversion, I can tell you that doctors often ask priests for prayers and that on some occasions people have been shown to be “miraculously” healed. The thing is that whether someone lives or dies of a disease in this world is not always what’s important.
Now I don’t know if classic schizophrenia is the result of demonic posession or just the result of living in a fallen world. The devil does not want to make his presence obvious and may even use “brain chemical imbalances” as a way of posessing an individual discreately, but posession is not the BEST tactic to destroy one’s soul because it often produces faith.
Just as examples though, I have known one man who had an X-Ray or MRI reveal a large “softball size” tumor in his thorax, who was praying regularly not to have it removed, but that he would be prepared to face the surgery and when they opened him up there was no tumor found at all. He still has the picture.
And at my church there have been at least three cases of women who had been diagnosed as clinically sterile who had spent in each case 10 years trying to have children, who after prayer to Christ through his mother’s intercessions all became pregnant withing the next month and have all had more than one child (7 total between them).
Lothario: if you look for a scientific explanation, the devil can certainly provide you with one.
Here is the Tikhvon icon of the mother of God painted by Saint Luke. It also can be added that many protestant researchers denied that Luke would have painted images of Mary, but when they found withing the last 10 years the remains of what they believed to be Luke’s home, they found paints and brushes and “sketches”.
This icon was present on the day my family became orthodox. The gold casing was added later.
[quote]extol7extol wrote:
…It’s OUR website:
http://www.outsidethecamp.org/deadignor.htm[/quote]
i knew you were a hyper!
although, i am surprised that you’re not using the “inpsired translation.”
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:Bottom line: the medical community should continue to advance in its treatments and cures but it’d be revolutionary if science converged with concepts from the spiritual realm for the cure of diseases as well.
lothario1132 wrote:
I’m sorry stellar, but I’m going to have to disagree with you here. It would be a tremendous step back in our progress to try to converge scientific ideas with superstition like what you propose.
[/quote]stellar_horizon writes:
First of all, it’d be a tremendous step forward, not back. That’s one role which science serves - to pry into concepts of the unknown through research in attempts to satiate human curiosity. As far as I’m aware, science has failed to pry into the miracles of the spiritual realm to an appreciable degree. You’ve failed to justify your opinion why or how this would be a step back.
Main Entry: superstition
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English supersticion, from Middle French, from Latin superstition-, superstitio, from superstit-, superstes standing over (as witness or survivor), from super- + stare to stand – more at STAND
1a: a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation
1b: an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition
2: a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary
Secondly, the miracles of the Orthodox Christian Faith aren’t mere superstition as you claim. The Orthodox Christian Church has a wealthy tradition of miracles to its favor; this precedent is based on historical analysis (experience rather than ignorance). The miracles are not superstitious beliefs in that they are not embraced because of fear either. Also important to note, the miracles are not confused with magic or mere chance; Orthodox Christians realize that either God or demons are responsible for the occurrence of miracles (whether directly or indirectly), and as far as causation is concerned, science has failed to pry into the issue. You should also note that an abundance of rational men throughout the ages (kings, philosophers, scientists, teachers etc.), have affirmed that the miracles of the Orthodox Christian Church are anything but superstitious happenings. Last but not least, the Orthodox Christian Church doesn’t tout miracles contrary to scientific evidence. Your reference to Orthodox Christian miracles as superstition completely disintegrates.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Science relies on measurable results from experimentation. There’s never going to be a “faith-o-meter” that measures how much Jesus someone has in them. We are never going to have a “demon tricorder” that detects the presence of demons in the schizophrenic. If you stop to think about it for a second, you will know why.[/quote]
stellar_horizon writes:
b Designing new equipment[/b]
Never is a strong word and the challenge to develop these instruments is the responsibility of scientists, although I agree that such a venture would have a low probability of success. Nonetheless, shying away from the challenge because it’d prove to be an exhaustive feat given the hypothesized odds is not a plausible excuse. Funding and public interest on the other hand, most definitely are. It’s worth a shot.
b Utilizing current equipment[/b]
Scientists have developed devices which can register brain waves. These devices can establish a correlation between behavior and activation of certain lobes of the brain (ie. such as praying). Let’s put this equipment to use in sanitariums and other mental health facilities.
b Expanding upon data collection[/b]
Gathering feedback on the patient’s life by conducting in-depth interviews with not only the patient, but his family and friends would be critical. Analyzing the household atmosphere as well as the general habitat of the patient might prove useful too. What religion is the patient, what practices did he engage in? Did he delve into the occult? Did he share a healthy relationship with the significant people in his life? Did he share a personal relationship with God? Obviously these techniques are much broader in scope than by today’s applications.
b Inviting other resources to get involved[/b]
Using Orthodox Christian priests who share experience in treating demoniacs, these resources could compare & contrast any vital features of the patient with former cases. This actually occurs today but to a private, almost secretive degree. Let’s propose this policy to the public.
Just throwing some ideas at you which the scientific community is failing to embrace in their mainstream bias against religion.
It’s also critical to mention that demonic possession does not only influence the psychology of man; it also effects his behavior and at times even exerts physical anomalies. Again, people may be plagued by illnesses either by natural means or by demonic possession. Documented miracles of the Orthodox Christian Church have proven to relieve the natural means of psychological or physical anomalies as well as those caused by demonic possession whereby demon(s) have been cast out of individuals.
Long before contemporary medical practices were implemented, those of the Orthodox Christian Church (ie. Jesus Christ, the Apostles, the Saints) were healing humans plagued by natural means and those afflicted by demonic possession. The Bible differentiates between the two types. The healing of paralytics, the deaf & the mute, the blind, the mentally & emotionally unstable, the lepers, etc. were being healed in absence of contemporary medical applications since the last 2,000 years.
A ~35-year old woman at my church was going blind in one eye. Told there was no other way to correct her deteriorating vision, the medical staff singled out surgery as the only potential treatment, and the odds considering this procedure were highly unfavorable. She instead decided to engage in wholehearted prayer and fasting and with the intercessions of Saints and the clergy, she was mysteriously healed a short while later. The medical community was dumbfounded. That’s a miracle.
Saint Nektarios of the 20th century and his miraculous deeds:
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/nektarios/
http://www.nektarios.btinternet.co.uk/miracles/miracles.htm
Mertdawg:
Love the Archangel Michael avatar.
You have good taste!
Christ is Risen!
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Main Entry: superstition
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English supersticion, from Middle French, from Latin superstition-, superstitio, from superstit-, superstes standing over (as witness or survivor), from super- + stare to stand – more at STAND
1a: a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation
1b: an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition
2: a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary
[/quote]
Every single one of these definitions fits your belief system. And by virtue of your belief, you are unable to see it.
Tumors being healed, raining frogs, gigantic meteors striking the earth and missing somebody sitting in his living room by one foot, Pamela Anderson… these are all things which you can choose to think of as an act of God or not. You choose to pretend that there is an almighty mystical and benevolent force behind things which expresses itself in discrete ways to those who believe in him, and I choose not to. I also don’t believe in a big red boogeyman trying to get me, and the only way to keep him at bay is to follow a set of prescribed rules. Your boogeyman and his legion of invisible demons can kiss my ass. It’s just a lot of silliness to me, I guess.
You guys aren’t hurting anybody, so go ahead and be goofy… knock yourselves out… I think it’s great. The only problem I have with the misguided is when they start burning people like me at the stake, or declaring jihad on me and crashing airplanes into buildings and stuff like that. If y’all throw rocks at me or try to poke me with hot iron rods, I’m going to kick your ass. 
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Tumors being healed, raining frogs, gigantic meteors striking the earth and missing somebody sitting in his living room by one foot, Pamela Anderson… these are all things which you can choose to think of as an act of God or not. You choose to pretend that there is an almighty mystical and benevolent force behind things which expresses itself in discrete ways to those who believe in him, and I choose not to. I also don’t believe in a big red boogeyman trying to get me, and the only way to keep him at bay is to follow a set of prescribed rules. Your boogeyman and his legion of invisible demons can kiss my ass. It’s just a lot of silliness to me, I guess.
You guys aren’t hurting anybody, so go ahead and be goofy… knock yourselves out… I think it’s great. The only problem I have with the misguided is when they start burning people like me at the stake, or declaring jihad on me and crashing airplanes into buildings and stuff like that. If y’all throw rocks at me or try to poke me with hot iron rods, I’m going to kick your ass.
[/quote]
lothario, burning people at the stake and crashing airplanes into buildings as part of jihad are the provocations of this “red boogeyman” - the evil one. I know you believe this concept is silly, so I won’t elaborate any further. I didn’t start this thread, but I can only hope I’ve defended the Truth as God has preached it with the spirit of love. As a graduate from one of the top ten universities in this country and as an active recruit in a highly esteemed State Police law enforcement agency, I believe my merit speaks for itself on an academic, economic, social, and psychological level. I believe my Faith is reasonable and anything but misguided, but you’d beg to differ, and again - I have no animosity against you for that. I’ve discussed theology with literally hundreds of others before you, and as I’ve said before, we can agree to disagree. Most of the world, including many Orthodox Christians, will perish in the Day of Judgment. I pray that everyone is enlightened by the Truth and that they’re conditioned to be strong enough to function within It, myself included.
We’re both a couple of single dudes with an affinity for fitness & nutrition who can appreciate the simpler things in life like beautiful women and good protein shakes. Best wishes with the babes in Florida and likewise with your training aspirations.
I leave you with two quotes:
b[/b] There is nothing hidden that shall not be made known.
b[/b] To the believer, no proof is needed while to the unbeliever, no proof is ever enough.
Take it easy…
Seeing how this thread is slowly quieting down and how Fishlips ceased to post anything after page 22 since being challenged on the mystery of the Eucharist, I can finally resume my research on training & nutrition. ~11 % bodyfat with summer only weeks away is unacceptable for any T-man! I’m thinking V-Diet round 2 should do the trick…
Peace be with all!
StellarHorizon,
Bush lied, Greek Orthodoxy died!
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Seeing how this thread is slowly quieting down and how Fishlips ceased to post anything after page 22 since being challenged on the mystery of the Eucharist, I can finally resume my research on training & nutrition. ~11 % bodyfat with summer only weeks away is unacceptable for any T-man! I’m thinking V-Diet round 2 should do the trick…
Peace be with all![/quote]
Sorry Stella but once I came to the full realization I’m trying to communicate with people who openly admit they don’t use either reason nor common sense when conversing on this subject I decided this thread had died long ago. Just checking back in here and there but not wasting all the time and effort to post.
Good luck with your training. I bet you’re much more reasonable to talk to on that level. It’s too bad intelligent conversation goes out the window when you start talking religion.
Fish out.
[quote]edgecrusher wrote:
extol7extol wrote:
…It’s OUR website:
http://www.outsidethecamp.org/deadignor.htm
i knew you were a hyper!
although, i am surprised that you’re not using the “inpsired translation.”[/quote]
Historically, hyper-calvinism is the view that God does not command all without exception to repent and believe and that all without exception do not have a duty to repent and believe. I do not hold to this view. I believe that all without exception are commanded to repent and believe and all without exception have a duty to repent and believe. Another characteristic that has been come to known as hyper-calvinism is the view (mainly espoused by Primitive Baptists) that there can be a lapse of time, even days, months, or years, between regeneration and conversion. Thus, there are regenerate people who do not believe the gospel and are even in staunch opposition to the gospel. I do not hold to this view. In fact, this view is exposed and repudiated in a review by Marc Carpenter entitled “The Irrelevant Gospel” at http://www.outsidethecamp.org/review52.htm
Thus far, I’ve shown that I do not believe in any of the tenets of commonly-defined hyper-calvinism.
However, there is one more part of some people’s definition, which is a much more recent addition: Some say that hyper-calvinism includes the belief that God does not desire the salvation of the reprobate and that there is no such thing as “common grace.” In this case, I admit that I believe both of these. God does not desire the salvation of the reprobate, and there is no such monstrosity as common grace. See http://www.outsidethecamp.org/commongrace.htm If that makes me a hyper-calvinist to some, so be it.
[quote]extol7extol wrote:
Some say that hyper-calvinism includes the belief that God does not desire the salvation of the reprobate and that there is no such thing as “common grace.” In this case, I admit that I believe both of these…If that makes me a hyper-calvinist to some, so be it.
[/quote]
umm, yea it does. that’s why i said you were one.
In reference to the statement that “Greek Orthodoxy died”…
Perhaps Greek Orthodoxy in the ecumenist mainstream is decaying, but I’m a member of the Hellenic Orthodox Traditionalist Church of America. Our spiritual brethren inhabit the Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou atop Mount Athos whom we share full ecclesiastical communion with.
http://ca.geocities.com/esphigmenoumonastery@rogers.com/enter.html
http://www.esphigmenou.com/
http://www.thegreekorthodoxchurch.com/metropolis/index_4.php?cnt=parish_dir
b[/b] Our clergy don’t disrobe of their cassocks like the heretics do.
b[/b] Our clergy don’t wear collars like the heretics do.
b[/b] Our clergy don’t shave their beards like the heretics do.
b[/b] Our clergy preach the Faith as the Apostles handed it down, affording no opportunity to blend the pureness of Christ with the poisons of Satan. Any compromise regarding features of Orthodox Christianity for the secondary virtue of union is unjustifiable.
b[/b] Our brothers in the Faith, the followers of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, are gradually setting the pace to be fully incorporated within our traditional Greek Orthodox Churches throughout North and South America.
Glory to God that His Spirit sustains the traditional Greek Orthodox Church and all Orthodox Christians throughout the world!