[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Dude… wow. Okay, did Jesus come back to the world of the living or not? You say he rose from the grave, but then he’s nowhere to be found ANYWHERE (I can use bold text too hehe). What we have here is some dead guy that had his body vanish. Maybe it magically vanished or something? That makes sense.
[/quote]
His Body is nowhere to be found because He took it with Him when He ascended into the stratosphere. There was the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, and the Ascension. THAT’S WHY HIS BODY IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
I got to tell you, you are fighting pretty hard against reality here. I’m sorry that the real world is so boring, but hey… it’s what we’ve got. Just off the top of my head, I can think of several explanations for the stories about the apostles doing what they did, and they have nothing to do with magic miracle super powers and witnessing some dead guy getting up out of his three day old grave and partying.
- The stories aren’t true. All we would need is a breakdown in truth at some point like say when the apostles were being tortured, and still claimed to have seen what they saw and it would stop if they told the truth, but they didn’t, so hey they must have been telling the truth. What if they were tortured, denounced their claims as frauds that they were, and the cruelty of their captors continued until they perished anyway? OR… What if they didn’t even die or were tortured like the stories said? What if that part is wrong?[/quote]
Gee lothario, do you have this proof?
na na na na na… The Bible stands up to every test of scrutiny. Continue to speculate to your heart’s content. It doesn’t bother me dude, lol. I don’t need the Bible to testify of the manner by which the Apostles died. Accounts of their lives are supported by early Church tradition. It’s easier for you to conjure up theories than it is for you to believe the Resurrection actually occurred.
(1) The Apostle Matthew suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia, killed by a sword wound.
(2) The Apostle Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.
(3) The Apostle Luke was hanged in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.
(4) The Apostle John faced martyrdom when he was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation on Patmos. The Apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.
(4) The Apostle Peter was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross, according to church tradition because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die in the same way that Jesus Christ had died.
(5) The Apostle James the Just, the leader of the church in Jerusalem, was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller’s club. This was the same pinnacle where Satan had taken Jesus during the Temptation.
(6) The Apostle James the Greater, a son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.
(7) The Apostle Bartholomew, also know as Nathanael, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed to our Lord in present day Turkey. Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia when he was flayed to death by a whip.
(8) The Apostle Andrew was crucified on an x-shaped cross in Patras, Greece. After being whipped severely by seven soldiers they tied his body to the cross with cords to prolong his agony. His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words: “I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has been consecrated by the body of Christ hanging on it.” He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.
(9) The Apostle Thomas was stabbed with a spear in India during one of his missionary trips to establish the church in the subcontinent.
(10) The Apostle Jude, the brother of Jesus, was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Christ.
(11) The Apostle Matthias who replaced the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned and then beheaded.
(12) The Apostle Barnabas, one of the group of seventy disciples, wrote the Epistle of Barnabas. He preached throughout Italy and Cyprus. Barnabas was stoned to death at Salonica.
(13) The Apostle Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero at Rome in A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment which allowed him to write his many epistles to the churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
2) The apostles felt guilty about causing the death of their poor misguided friend Jesus, and made a promise to one another after they stole his body and destroyed it to never reveal their secret, even under torture (or maybe they did reveal it under torture and the torturers didn’t care anyway and killed them, and the fact that the torturers came out and might have said something like “I knew those dudes were lying, they just told me so” didn’t make it into the Holy Bible for obvious reasons).
[/quote]
You allege that the Apostles stole Jesus Christ’s Body even though it was said that the Tomb which housed His Body was blocked with a very large stone. Georgia Tech Engineering professors estimated that the boulder would have been 1.5 - 2.5 tons according to the dimensions of the entrance height and width. Furthermore, the circular rock was perfectly wedged into position after being rolled down a short slope, thereby making it even more difficult to move. After being set, it’s estimated that even 20 individuals might have a difficult time displacing the stone.
Secondly, because Jesus Christ’s trial and Crucifixion was a tremendous event, the Romans as well as the Jewish factions which plotted against Him wanted to ensure that nobody tampered with the Tomb. As recorded in the Bible, the Pharisees appealed to Pontius Pilate for guards to avoid the possibility that anyone steal His Body. Now, if we’re to believe that the Jews used their Temple Guard to guard the Body, it’s critical to realize that these were highly disciplined soldiers; if a captain approached a guard member who was asleep, he was beaten and burned with his clothes on. A member of the guard was also forbidden to sit down or lean against anything when on duty. The Temple Guard rolled in 27 packs of 10. It’s feasible that at least one unit (10 guards) patrolled Christ’s Tomb.
Modern day scholars though presume that Roman Guards secured the Tomb instead. Roman Guards during the time of Jesus Christ (as reported in Military Institutes of the Romans by Flavius Vegitius Renatus) ranged in units of 4-16 men, each man trained to sufficiently secure 6-feet of ground each. The 16 men in a square of four on each side were supposed to be able to protect 36-yards against an entire battalion and defend it. Normally what they did was this: 4 men were placed immediately in front of what they were to protect. The other 12 were asleep in a semi-circle in front of them with their heads pointing in. To steal what these guards were protecting, thieves would first have to walk over those who were asleep. Every 4 hours, another unit of 4 was awakened, and those who had been awake went to sleep. They would rotate this way around the clock. Historian Dr. Maier writes that it was customary for Herod Agrippa to assign a minimum of 16 soldiers outside a prison. Another reason the scholars believe the Roman Guard secured the Tomb was because a seal was set upon the Tomb which prevented anyone from tampering with the stone’s contents, again customary with Roman tactics, as is recorded in the Gospel of Matthew. This seal also authenticated that this Tomb was that of Jesus Christ and that it was the official signate of Rome.
For the eleven Apostles to steal the Body of Jesus Christ as you suggest, you need to ask yourself how they got past the Temple Guard or the Roman Guard who’d be harshly punished for failure, and then also devise a way for them to roll away a ~2 ton stone.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
3) Why didn’t these a**holes try to keep their friend from being crucified? Because they’re f’n crazy, that’s why! Fanatics come in all shapes and sizes. They wanted to believe so bad that he was God in the flesh that they went nuts after Jesus died and made up a whole bunch of crap like “I saw him risen, and so did so and so” when perhaps they were just drunk or something. And their anger and rebellion against the Jews that killed their dear friend drove them to preach in Jerusalem, of all places, about how the Jews were wrong, and their friend was indeed the God in the flesh risen from the dead, and when tortured about it, had the fuel of their hate to resist hot iron pokers and whatnot. You just have to really hate Jews and really be fanatical, and you could go through what those apostles did.
[/quote]
Firstly, do not refer to the Apostles in a derogatory fashion. You prove your licentious nature over & over again. You can keep sweeping your hostilities against Christianity under the rug but they remain transparent.
Even chihuahuas bark like dobermen until the moment of attack, so I’m not impressed by your critique. That leads up to the point that resistance was futile - the Apostles could not stop the Crucifixion. Christ instructed them beforehand of the events which were to unfold so that prophecy would be fulfilled. Secondly, challenging an entire battalion of Roman Guards wielding swords and shields in riot formation would be ridiculous. Anyone who interfered with the process of crucifixion could be slain on the spot. Eleven fishermen rushing even four Roman Guards would be suicide.
As far as your other claims, all gibberish… The Apostles were righteous Jews, humble Jews, God-fearing Jews who converted to Christianity because they had love for mankind. You perceive them as being fanatics because they preached the Truth, the Truth you secretly hate.
MOCK DIALOGUE
The Apostles witnessed Jesus Christ on numerous occasions after the Resurrection according to the scriptures, so what do you think?
They were drunk each & every time. Each time the Apostles saw Jesus Christ they must’ve been drunk, even if He appeared like 30 times or whatever.
Regarding their alleged hatred, one Apostle was beheaded for refusing to denounce Jesus Christ, another was stoned to death, another was crucified upside down, and you think someone would willfully endure such tortures many years after mourning a loss?
Well, if I hated someone enough, I’d let them beat me over the head with a baseball bat till my skull was split in two. Yeah! That’d show em who’s the boss!
But why would the Apostles hate the Jews, being they were Jews themselves? And if they hated the Jews, then how come people like Saul of Tarsus converted to the Christian Faith?
How the heck should I know? I’m waiting for you to post the answer so I can pervert it!
quit being a chihuahua lothario!
[quote]extol7extol wrote:
(2) Note that mertdawg has no problem agreeing with you that the Bible contains contradictions. You and stellar are of one mind in rejecting the God of the Bible, and thus BOTH of you say in your hearts, “there is no God.” You assert control over your life, and so does he. Therefore, the disagreements between you are only verbal variations. In essence, you are of the same mind, for you both (you and the so-called “orthodox”) deny that the Bible is to be received as authoritative, to the exclusion of all other writings.[/quote]
extol7extol, regardless of whatever perversion of Bible interpretation you adhere to, you do not belong to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I disagree with your tradition of interpretation and the theological system you base upon it. The Orthodox Christian Church (est. 33 AD) never taught what you here preach. It’s my moral obligation to inform you of that.
As far as salvation is concerned, you’ve denatured the essence of Christianity into a static belief system that only requires a verbal confession on the part of the sinner - which is heretical. God does not instruct us towards heaven by simply having us sign on a dotted line or having to hear us say “I believe that Jesus is the Christ.” If this were the case, Satan would be experiencing heaven now too. In your feeble theological system, salvation is diluted into a business transaction. That’s wrong because faith is dynamic. The Gospel according to the four authors teaches that we must actively water the seed of faith, not merely pride ourselves upon attaining it. For he who has, yet does not cultivate, will forfeit even what he thinks he has. That’s why we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Contemplate this phrase for a minute. Why would we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling if we’re already saved and God will control the rest of our lives. Apparently, and contrary to your assertion, we need to cooperate with God every step of the way if we’re to receive that eternal crown of victory.
There is always the opportunity to stumble. The righteous today may fall away tomorrow, and those fallen away today, may become righteous tomorrow. Although the devil would have you believe so, do not think for even a second that your salvation is guaranteed.
Contrary to the teachings of the Bible:
b[/b] You’ve yet to baptized.
b[/b] You’ve yet to receive the seal of the Holy Spirit.
b[/b] You’ve yet to have properly confessed your sins to God.
b[/b] You’ve yet to receive the Eucharist.
You aren’t even in communion with the Church which Jesus Christ instituted yet you claim to be saved.
Unless you’ve received the mysteries from someone bearing Apostolic succession, you’re lacking in the grace necessary for salvation. The mysteries of heretics are graceless. Grace can only be transmitted through the mysteries delivered by one who bears Apostolic succession; those who wish to partake of these mysteries can only do so as members of the Body of Christ (the Orthodox Christian Church). Being that you are not, there is a grave cause for your soul’s final disposition. It was my duty to report this to you. Ponder these things and correlate what I have written with what the early Church practiced & preached.
Peace be with you.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Thanks for the reply, mert. So it doesn’t seem crazy to you, or like one of the inconsistencies like you found in the other faiths, that Jesus rose from his tomb after being dead for three days? I’m sorry bro, in my book that’s a whole lot of crap to swallow in one bite. I mean, I can look past healing a couple of lepers as part of the “Tall Tale” phenomenon, and we can chalk up walking on water to somebody getting a little fast and loose with a translation or two, but rising from the dead is just nuts. I see people come back from the dead at work, but they’ve only been that way for a few minutes. Three days is a little much.
The way I see it, we have just another cult based around supposed miraculous events which are far beyond any ability for us to prove or disprove. That’s where the pretending has to come in and pick up the slack.[/quote]
Well A its not internally inconsistent and B it doesn’t violate any of the laws of physics. Its inconsistent with our current understanding of biology which is a superficial theory several steps out from the first principals of physics.
As far as rising from the dead being impossible, well there are legitimate scientist today including for example steven hawking who are stating that backwards time travel is possible in principal. If the bible said Jesus went back in time would you call it an inconsistency? It would be extraordinary, but that would be consistent with being God (internal consistency) and not inconsistent with what we know about physics.
I’ll get a little off track here. Our model of physics leaves a huge gap between Quark/electron (10^-15 to 10^-18 meters) and the planck scale (10^-35 meters). Using simple laws it can be postulated that at the smallest level we have what some have called quantum “foam” in which light waves are tiny self trapping black holes which themselves exist as mouths of wormholes which connect differnt times and places in the universe. One way of thinking about it is that You are made, on the penultimately small level of roughly 10 to the 104th power (that’s a 1 with 104 zeros) wormholes which each connect to some different time and space in the universe.
Could you except that?
There’s more, but the point is that the resurrection is extraordinary, but not at all inconsistent with any first principle laws that we have today.
Wise man say:
He who TRULY believes in predetermination does not talk about it out loud.
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
God does not instruct us towards heaven by simply having us sign on a dotted line or having to hear us say “I believe that Jesus is the Christ.” If this were the case, Satan would be experiencing heaven now too.
[/quote]
Your comment about Satan is a non sequitur. First, Satan is a fallen angel, and not a man. Jesus “takes hold” of men, not angels:
“Since, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might cause to cease the one having the power of death, that is, the devil; and might set these free, as many as by fear of death were subject to slavery through all the lifetime to live. For indeed He does not take hold of angels, “but He takes hold of” “the seed of Abraham.” For this reason He ought by all means to become like His brothers, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the things respecting God, in order to make propitiation for the sins of His people” (Hebrews 2:14-17).
And second, Satan and/or demons do not know, and thus do not believe the mercy of God. God shows and will show no mercy to Satan and the demons. Likewise, God shows and will show no mercy to those for whom Christ did not die. God only shows mercy to those for whom Christ died. If He showed mercy to those for whom Christ did not die, He would be showing mercy and the expense of His holy law and inexorable justice.
Moving on…
James 2: (19) You believe that God is One. You do well; even the demons believe and shudder.
In the Scripture above, James says that this person professes to believe in one God, not in many gods. In other words, this person professes to be a monotheist, not a polytheistic idolater. James then says, “Well, good for you - even the demons believe this, to the point of being afraid of God.” He’s saying that your profession of believing in one God is no more than what the demons believe. It’s another way of saying, “Big deal!” or “So what!” Are we to be impressed when a person says, “I believe in the one true and living God?” Or when someone says, “Thank you, God?” Are we to get all excited and say, “He’s a believer! He’s a believer!”? No. SO WHAT if a person says this. Millions of people say this who are on their way to hell. It doesn’t mean a thing.
Now some people use this verse to say that orthodoxy isn’t important. They say, “You can have all the doctrine right, but that doesn’t mean you’re saved. Even the demons are orthodox. They have all the right doctrine.” I have several things to say about this.
First, I would agree that someone can SAY or PROFESS to believe in all the right doctrine and still be lost. There’s no question about that. But if they BELIEVE in all the right doctrine, then they are obviously saved. Now someone (stellar?) might accuse us of holding to the faith without works heresy. However - and this is important - if someone believes right gospel doctrine, then he will AUTOMATICALLY bring forth good works. There’s no such thing as truly believing right gospel doctrine and not having good works.
Now to your point about the so-called profession of “orthodox demons and/or Satan.” This passage is NOT saying that demons (Satan included) are orthodox. It is saying that they believe in one God and shudder. It is saying that the demons are monotheists. It is NOT saying that they believe right doctrine about salvation. They shudder because they only know the wrath of God. They do not know the mercy of God.
[quote]extol7extol wrote:
If He showed mercy to those for whom Christ did not die, He would be showing mercy and the expense of His holy law and inexorable justice
[/quote]
I meant to write, “at the expense” rather than “and the expense.”
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Demons have existed long before you were ever born and long before anti-psychotics were ever even imagined. Demons have the capacity to stir up behaviors in possessed individuals as well as to bring them back to catatonic states. Your observations on the mentally-ill populations may be simple forms of trickery. If demons will manifest as angels of the light to deceive the Saints, what makes you think they wouldn’t try to deceive you or anyone else in the medical community?
That’s not to say that certain medications don’t have their place, but to solely rely on the cause and effect principle of anti-psychotics on mentally-ill populations without regard for other factors in this thread is an inadequate presumption. Who’s to say that if some of the patients you referred to above underwent the ritual of exorcism that they wouldn’t be relieved of their mental-illnesses. Just throwing a few thoughts at you to ponder…
And likewise, your bravado is noteworthy when it comes to your willfullness to experience a demonic manifestation. Sheer folly to will yourself to encounter the darkness of the unknown. Nonetheless, may God’s will be done.[/quote]
You are becoming one of my very favorite posters here stellar. I hope that you are not surprised that some doctors are trying to improve the state of treatment for their field. This is one of the things that makes scientific approaches to things so effective. At no point do we say “Okay. That’s the best we will ever be able to do until the end of time.”
I can tell you this however: no credible doctor or researcher in any medical field will ever say something to the effect of “Ya know what? We had it right back in the dark ages, I don’t know why we changed our approach to medicine. It’s actually DEMONS that cause illness, and we should use the magic powers of the Orthodox priests to heal our sick. STUPID! Why were we so STUPID! To think all this time that the etiology of disease had a functional or structural cause… that infectious agents such as viruses and bacteria can also cause sickness… DAMMIT WE ARE DUMB!!!”
I love you stellar. In a non-touching way. If I ever get possessed with a demon, I’ll be sure to let you know.
DRINK THE BLOOD OF THE INNOCENT!! SLAY THE RIGHTEOUS AND DEFILE THE…
Sorry, I don’t know what came over me there.
stellar: Oh, and the post I made about the apostles was just throwing a couple of what ifs out there that would explain things without the use of magic powers and miraculous occurrences.
Did you know that every once in a while it rains frogs somewhere?
http://allaboutfrogs.org/weird/general/raining.html
I suppose that back in Biblical times, this was a miraculous occurrence, right? I love how you insist that some things are better explained by demon possessions or magic powers, dude. You must see the world as a great big comic book or something. Really, I’m jealous.
P.S. Your “mock conversation” between us was cute. I read it twice.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
stellar: Oh, and the post I made about the apostles was just throwing a couple of what ifs out there that would explain things without the use of magic powers and miraculous occurrences.
Did you know that every once in a while it rains frogs somewhere?
http://allaboutfrogs.org/weird/general/raining.html
I suppose that back in Biblical times, this was a miraculous occurrence, right? [/quote]
Considering the situation and rarity I would consider it to be miraculous.
A common phrase used by the enemies of God–from the Arminian (not Armenian)to the Atheist–to describe the God of Scripture who does whatever He pleases is “Puppet Master.” But as I will briefly show below, this is a far from accurate description. For though a puppeteer(or “puppet master”) is extremely talented in “puppetry” yet he is still limited by the construction and mechanics of his puppet. Moreover, in many cases this “puppet master” can even be baffled and thwarted by his stubborn puppet, and cannot get the puppet to do what he wants due to tangled strings or whatever.
Ironically, the “puppet master” charge fits perfectly those false religionists who assert the freedom of sinful pots while denying the freedom that belongs solely to the Potter. To clarify: “Arminians”, and all false religionists who assert free-will say I make God a “puppet master.” My response is,
“No, I do not. For a puppet master (puppeteer) is limited. The God of the Bible is not limited. Thus, I don’t make God a puppet master.”
Those who assert free-will place limitations on God’s freedom (to have mercy on whom He wills and to harden whom He wills for instance (Romans 9:18). The puppet ALSO places certain limitations on the puppeteer. Thus, the god of the free-willers is akin to the puppeteer. For the free-willer god (idol) and the puppeteer are both limited by those whom they are supposedly “in control” of.
Continuing on…
A puppet is a jointed doll worked by strings. It operates mechanically. But the Bible neither teaches nor implies a mechanistic view of life. But this is not to say that men are more independent of God than puppets are of their puppeteers. Quite the reverse.
The puppeteer who wants to give a puppet show is LIMITED in the number of things he can make his puppets do. They are jointed and controlled by strings. Therefore they cannot bend where they have no joints, nor in directions opposite to the joints’ construction. Some of the charm of a puppet lies in the fact that the puppeteer can do so much even under his rigid LIMITATIONS.
And thus, the puppet or robot illustration lacks, not because it is deterministic, but because it is not deterministic enough. A puppeteer cannot completely control a puppet. It (the puppet) places limitations on him (the puppeteer). But God is omnipotent, and man is unable to place any limitation on Him.
The god who wishes that everyone without exception would be saved is NOT my God. He is NOT the God of the Bible. He is the god of those who hate the true and living God. He is a god who wishes and hopes that things will happen that actually do not happen, in contrast with the God of Holy Scripture who is the Creator and Controller of the universe. Whatever God desires He does:
“But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul
desireth, even that he doeth” (Job 23:13).
“But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased”
(Psalm 115:3).
“For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all
gods. Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places” (Psalm 135:5-6).
“Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else;
I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure” (Isaiah 46:9-10)
?And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35)
“In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” (Ephesians 1:11).
Whoever believes in a god who wishes things would happen (like wishing that everyone without exception would be saved) but who does not and/or cannot do whatever he wishes, does not believe in the God of the Bible.
TRUE GOSPEL ATONEMENT
God says in Mark 16:16 that those who do not believe the gospel are unregenerate. He says in 1 Corinthians 15:3 that the gospel includes the truth “that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures.” Thus, those who do not believe the truth “that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures” are unregenerate. What does it mean “that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures”? This article will go into the life-and-death truth of The Atonement.
Every religion has its version of an “atonement.” Ask any false religionist, from a Buddhist to a Muslim to a Roman Catholic to a Mormon to a Russellite to a Campbellite to an Arminian, if he believes in “atonement,” and you will hear an answer in the affirmative. Does this mean that any of these false religionists believe the one true Atonement of the one true gospel? Of course not. One’s profession of belief in an atonement means nothing unless we find out what one MEANS by “atonement.” Ask a Muslim what he means by “atonement” and you will find that he says that his good deeds atone for his evil deeds. Ask an Arminian what he means by “atonement” and you will find that he says that his “jesus christ” atoned for the evil deeds of everyone without exception, yet there are some for whom this “jesus” atoned who go to hell anyway. Although Islam does not come in the name of Christianity while Arminianism does, Arminianism is actually closer to Islam and the rest of the false religions of the world than it is to true Christianity. All of the false religions of the world, including religions that profess belief in a “jesus christ” who is both human and divine who died for the sins of everyone without exception, propound a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner in which the efforts of the sinner are what make the ultimate difference between salvation and damnation.
In this article, we will describe THE Atonement, which is The TRUE Atonement of Jesus Christ - The Atonement of the one true gospel of true Christianity. We will contrast it with the false atonement of the most prevalent form of false religion that comes in the name of Christianity - namely, universal atonement (sometimes called Arminianism, although not all who believe in the false gospel of universal atonement would be called classical “Arminians”). We will see that universal atonement is actually NO atonement at all and treats the true cross of Christ as nothing. We will then consider those who say they believe in Gospel Atonement but who believe that at least some universal atonement advocates are true Christians, showing that they, too, do not believe in Gospel Atonement.
Two important concepts must be understood at the outset: substitution and imputation. Substitution denotes an exchange of places. Jesus Christ took the place of certain sinners. Jesus Christ suffered on behalf of certain sinners. He represented certain sinners. He suffered as a vicarious sacrifice. “But He was wounded for our transgressions; [He was] bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His wounds we ourselves are healed” (Isaiah 53:5). “… For also Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us” (1 Corinthians 5:7). “… This is My body being given for you … My blood, which is being poured out for you” (Luke 22:19-20). “… this is My body which is broken on behalf of you …” (1 Corinthians 11:24). “… for even Christ suffered on our behalf …” (1 Peter 2:21). “Truly [He] who did not spare His own Son, but gave Him up on behalf of us all …” (Romans 8:32). “… our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself on our behalf …” (Titus 2:13-14). “… He has been manifested for putting away of sin through the sacrifice of Himself” (Hebrews 9:26). “Because even Christ once suffered concerning sins, the just for the unjust …” (1 Peter 3:18). “… Christ also loved us and gave Himself for us …” (Ephesians 5:2). “… the Son of God, the [One] loving me and giving Himself over on my behalf” (Galatians 2:20). “… Christ also loved the Assembly and gave Himself up on its behalf” (Ephesians 5:25). “… The Good Shepherd lays down His life on behalf of the sheep … I lay down My life for the sheep” (John 10:11,15). “… by [the] grace of God He might taste death for every [son]” (Hebrews 2:9). “… if One died for all, then all died” (2 Corinthians 5:14). “For if by the deviation of the one the many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace, which [is] of the one Man, Jesus Christ, did abound to the many. … For if by the deviation of the one death reigned through the one, much more those who are receiving the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall rule in life by the One, Jesus Christ. So then, as through one deviation [it was] toward all men to condemnation, so also through one effected righteousness toward all men to justification of life. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be constituted righteous” (Romans 5:17-19).
Imputation denotes a legal charging to one’s account. All of the sins of certain sinners, with all their guilt and condemnation, were charged to Jesus Christ. For He made the [One] who knew no sin [to be] sin for us …" (2 Corinthians 5:21). “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us …” (Galatians 3:13). “… Christ having been once offered to bear [the] sins of many …” (Hebrews 9:28). “who Himself carried up in His body our sins onto the tree …” (1 Peter 2:24). “Surely He has borne our sicknesses, and He carried our pain … and Jehovah made meet in Him the iniquity of all of us. … He shall bear their iniquities. … He bore the sin of many …” (Isaiah 53:4-12).
The differences between Gospel Atonement and the false gospel of universal atonement in the areas of substitution and imputation are as follows: In Gospel Atonement, Jesus Christ was the substitute of all whom God chose before the foundation of the world to be saved, and the sins of these people and these alone were imputed to Jesus Christ. In the false gospel of universal atonement, their “jesus christ” took the place of and took on the sins of every single human being without exception. We will see how this universal atonement rips out the very heart of the gospel.
Having established that the sins of Jesus Christ’s people were imputed to Him and He suffered in the place of His people, let us go into what The Atonement actually accomplished and compare The Atonement to the false gospel of universal atonement, which is really no atonement at all.
The Atonement fully and perfectly accomplished complete, absolute, entire remission of all the sins of all the people for whom Christ died. To remit means to cancel, to forgive, to pardon, to take out of the way. Jesus Christ’s bloody death on the cross totally canceled, totally purged, totally paid the debt for the sins of His people. Jesus Christ is “The Lamb of God, taking away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). He “was revealed that He might take away our sins” (1 John 3:5). His blood was “poured out for remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). He “made purification of our sins through Himself” (Hebrews 1:3). His mission was"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity" (Daniel 9:24), and to “undo the works of the devil” (1 John 3:8), that “through death He might cause to cease the [one] having the power of death, that is, the devil” (Hebrews 2:14). Jesus Christ"has been manifested for putting away of sin through the sacrifice of Himself" (Hebrews 9:26). He “washed us from our sins by His blood” (Revelation 1:5). He has “forgiven you all the offenses, blotting out the handwriting in the ordinances against us, which was contrary to us, even [He] has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the cross” (Colossians 2:13-14). His blood “cleanses us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). In Him there is “the remission of sins” (Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14). His blood was shed once, because “apart from shedding of blood no remission occurs. … But where remission of these is, there [is] no longer offering concerning sins” (Hebrews 9:22; 10:18). God in Christ was “not charging their trespasses to them” (2 Corinthians 5:19), and “with His wounds we ourselves are healed” (Isaiah 53:5; 1 Peter 2:24).
What of the “christ” of universal atonement? The “christ” of universal atonement died for everyone without exception. Did this death actually accomplish the remission, the cancellation, the pardon, the putting away of the sin of everyone without exception? It did not do anything even close to that. There are people in hell for whom this “christ” died, for whom this “christ” atoned, whose sins were supposedly “taken away” and “pardoned” and “paid for.” Universal atonement advocates use John 1:29 to try to prove that their “christ” took away the sins of everyone without exception. Yet they also say that there are some who are burning in hell. Were the sins of those who are burning in hell taken away by the blood of their “christ”? If so, why are they burning in hell? It is because their “christ” actually accomplished NOTHING on the cross. There are people burning in hell for sins that were not pardoned or taken away. Their god is a liar when he says that this “christ” took away the sins of everyone without exception. The blood of their “christ” is of no effect in and of itself. And they blaspheme the true Jesus Christ by using His Name in their damnable heresy, claiming that the true Jesus Christ of the Bible paid the sin debt for everyone without exception. They hate the true God and the true gospel. They are unregenerate.
The Atonement fully and perfectly accomplished complete, absolute, entire redemption of all the people for whom Christ died. To redeem means to buy, to purchase, to pay the ransom price for a possession so as to rescue or deliver that possession. God’s people “were bought with a price” (1 Corinthians 6:20). They were “redeemed … with precious blood of Christ” (1 Peter 1:18-19). They were “purchased through [His] own blood” (Acts 20:28). They “shall be saved from the wrath through Him” (Romans 5:9). They are “justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:24). They sing to Jesus Christ, “You were slain, and by Your blood purchased us to God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation” (Revelation 5:9). Jesus Christ came to “save His people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21) and to “set these free, as many as by fear of death were subject to slavery through all the [time] to live” (Hebrews 2:15). He is “the [One] delivering us from the coming wrath” (1 Thessalonians 1:10). He has “given Himself a ransom on behalf of all” (1 Timothy 2:6). He “gave Himself for our sins, so that He might deliver us out of the present evil age” (Galatians 1:4). He “gave Himself on our behalf, that He might redeem us from all lawlessness” (Titus 2:14). “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law” (Galatians 3:13). He came “that He might redeem the ones under Law” (Galatians 4:5), “to give His life a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45). In Christ, “we have redemption through His blood” (Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14).
What of the “christ” of universal atonement? The “christ” of universal atonement died for everyone without exception. Did this death actually accomplish the redemption, the purchase, the deliverance of everyone without exception? It did not do anything even close to that. There are people in hell for whom this “christ” died, for whom this “christ” atoned, who were supposedly “purchased” and “redeemed” by the blood of this “christ.” Universal atonement advocates use 1 Timothy 2:6 to try to prove that their “christ” gave himself a ransom for everyone without exception. Yet they also say that there are some who are burning in hell. Did this “christ” give himself a ransom, buy with his own blood, pay the price for those who are burning in hell? If so, why are they burning in hell? It is because their “christ” actually accomplished NOTHING on the cross. There are people burning in hell who have not been purchased or delivered. Their god is a liar when he says that this “christ” paid the ransom price of everyone without exception. The blood of their “christ” is of no effect in and of itself. And they blaspheme the true Jesus Christ by using His Name in their damnable heresy, claiming that the true Jesus Christ of the Bible redeemed everyone without exception. They hate the true God and the true gospel. They are unregenerate.
The Atonement fully and perfectly accomplished complete, absolute, entire propitiation and reconciliation for all the people for whom Christ died. To propitiate means to appease, to pacify, to assuage. To reconcile means to bring back into fellowship with, to make peace with. God’s wrath was fully appeased when Jesus Christ became sin for His people and suffered the just punishment for that sin. The blood of Christ made peace between God and all for whom Christ died. God “reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ … God was in Christ reconciling [the] world to Himself” (2 Corinthians 5:18-19). He “sent His Son [to be] a propitiation relating to our sins” (1 John 4:10) and set forth Jesus Christ as “a propitiation through faith in His blood” (Romans 3:25). Jesus Christ is the “propitiation relating to our sins, and not relating to ours only, but also relating to all the world” (1 John 2:2). He came “to make propitiation for the sins of [His] people” (Hebrews 2:17), “that He might bring us to God” (1 Peter 3: 18). “For He is our peace, He making us both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, in His flesh causing to cease the enmity, the Law of the commandments in decrees, that He might in Himself create the two into one new man, making peace, and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, slaying the enmity in Himself. And coming, [He] proclaimed peace to you, the ones afar off, and to the ones near” (Ephesians 2:14-17). “For if [while] being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life; and not only [so], but also glorying in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we now received the reconciliation” (Romans 5: 10-11). “… through Him making peace by the blood of His cross, to reconcile all things to Himself … now He reconciled in the body of His flesh, through death” (Colossians 1:20-22). “But He was wounded for our transgressions; [He was] bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him … But Jehovah pleased to crush Him, to make Him sick, [so that] if He should put His soul as a guilt offering, He shall see [His] seed; He shall prolong [His] days, and the will of Jehovah shall prosper in His hand. He shall see [the fruit] of the travail of His soul; He shall be fully satisfied. By His knowledge the righteous One, My Servant, shall justify for many, and He shall bear their iniquities. Because of this, I will divide to Him with the great, and with the strong He shall divide the spoil; because He poured out His soul unto death; and [He] was numbered with those transgressing; and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for those transgressing” (Isaiah 53:5-12).
What of the “christ” of universal atonement? The “christ” of universal atonement died for everyone without exception. Did this death actually accomplish the appeasement of God’s wrath for everyone without exception? Did it actually accomplish reconciliation between God and everyone without exception? It did not do anything even close to that. There are people in hell for whom this “christ” died, for whom this “christ” atoned, who were supposedly “reconciled” to God by the blood of this “christ,” for whom God was supposedly “propitiated.” Universal atonement advocates use 2 Corinthians 5:19 and 1 John 2:2 to try to prove that their “christ” was reconciling everyone without exception to God and that their “christ” was a propitiation for everyone without exception. Yet they also say that there are some who are burning in hell. Did this “christ” appease the wrath of God for those who are burning in hell? Did the blood of this “christ” make peace between God and those who are burning in hell? Did this “christ” reconcile to God those who are burning in hell? If so, why are they burning in hell? It is because their “christ” actually accomplished NOTHING on the cross. There are people burning in hell who are still under the wrath of God, who are not at peace with God. Their god is a liar when he says that this “christ” reconciled everyone without exception to himself and propitiated for everyone without exception. The blood of their “christ” is of no effect in and of itself. And they blaspheme the true Jesus Christ by using His Name in their damnable heresy, claiming that the true Jesus Christ of the Bible reconciled everyone without exception to the true God of the Bible and was the propitiation for everyone without exception. They hate the true God and the true gospel. They are unregenerate.
At the end of Jesus Christ’s suffering on the cross, He said, “It is finished” (John 19:30). Jesus Christ had finished the work He came to do. All the sins of all His people were imputed to Him, and He suffered as a substitute and representative for His people. His suffering unto death actually accomplished full pardon, redemption, propitiation, and reconciliation for every single person whom He represented on the cross. Christ’s atoning death was absolutely, totally effectual. This, THE Atonement, is the very heart of the gospel. If there is not THIS Atonement, The One True Atonement, there is no gospel. If there were only one person for whom Christ died who ended up in hell, the entire gospel would be meaningless, and the blood of Christ would be of no effect.
Consider the passage that was quoted in the first paragraph of this article. Do universal atonement advocates believe “that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3)? Not even close. Far from it. Their “christ” died for everyone without exception, not to accomplish salvation but merely to make salvation possible if the sinner would only do his part. This is not the atonement of the gospel. This is blasphemy. Those who believe that Jesus Christ died for those who are burning in hell spit in the face of Christ, trample underfoot the blood of Christ, and treat the blood of Christ as nothing. They do not believe that the blood of Christ was effectual to accomplish anything in and of itself.
The motto of every Christian is this: “But may it never be for me to boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Galatians 6:14). Whoever walks by this rule, this canon, this doctrine, is the one who has peace and mercy on him and is a person to whom all true Christians will speak peace; whoever boasts in anything else does not have peace and mercy on him and is a person to whom all true Christians will not speak peace (Galatians 6:16-17). Whatever one believes makes the difference between salvation and damnation is what one boasts and glories in. The one who believes that it is the work of Jesus Christ alone that makes the only difference between salvation and damnation boasts and glories in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ and does not boast or glory in self. What of those who believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception? They do not believe that it is the work of Jesus Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation; instead, they believe that it is the effort of the sinner that makes the ultimate difference between salvation and damnation. They do not boast or glory in the cross of Christ; they boast and glory in themselves. They might say they “give all glory to God” and that it is “the cross that makes the difference” and that it is “nothing but the blood of Jesus,” but if they believe that Jesus Christ died for people who are burning in hell, then they DO NOT believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. They DO NOT believe that the work of Christ was effectual to secure and ensure the salvation of everyone for whom Christ died. They DO NOT believe the very heart of the gospel. They are unregenerate boasters in self. “But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ toward all and upon all those believing; for there is no difference, for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth [as] a propitiation through faith in His blood, as a demonstration of His righteousness through the passing over of sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God, for a demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, for His being just and justifying the [one] that [is] of the faith of Jesus. Then where [is] the boasting? It was excluded” (Romans 3:21-27).
Now let us logically consider those who claim to believe in the efficacious atonement of Christ, who would say they agree that Christ only died for those who will be saved, yet who also believe that at least some universal atonement advocates are saved. This includes the “Calvinists” or “Sovereign Gracers” who believe that at least some Arminians are regenerate.
For the purpose of this consideration, let us call the “Calvinist” who considers at least some Arminians to be his brothers and sisters in Christ “TC” (for “Tolerant Calvinist”).
Let us assume that TC believes that all regenerate people believe the gospel. There are certainly some TC’s who do not believe this (such as the Primitive Baptists who believe that a regenerate person can go for a period of time being completely ignorant of the gospel and even believing a false gospel and worshiping a false god before they are “converted”), showing that they are unregenerate (see the review “The Irrelevant Gospel” in the May 2001 issue of Outside the Camp). But what of TC who believes that all saved people believe the gospel?
Consider: (1) TC believes that some who believe universal atonement are saved. (2) TC believes that all saved people believe the gospel. Thus, (3) TC believes that some who believe universal atonement believe the gospel.
What does this show about TC’s belief about the gospel? Since TC believes a person can believe the gospel and believe universal atonement at the same time, then he must believe that the gospel does not include the efficacious atonement of Jesus Christ. TC has just denied the very heart of the gospel.
If that were not clear enough, let us go further. Suppose now that TC would agree with us that universal atonement means that Christ’s death did not actually accomplish pardon, redemption, propitiation, and reconciliation. This is not an unreasonable supposition; many, if not most, TC’s would agree that this is what universal atonement means (just read Gordon Clark’s The Atonement). In fact, some TC’s would even go so far as to say that universal atonement is a false gospel, yet they say in the same breath that some who hold to universal atonement are regenerate (just talk to the pastors in the Protestant Reformed Churches).
Now consider: (1) TC believes that some who believe universal atonement believe the gospel. (2) TC believes that universal atonement means that Christ’s death did not actually accomplish pardon, redemption, propitiation, and reconciliation. Thus, (3) TC believes that some who believe that Christ’s death did not actually accomplish pardon, redemption, propitiation, and reconciliation believe the gospel.
What does this now say about what TC thinks about the gospel? TC believes that the gospel is made up of certain doctrines. TC also believes that some who believe that Christ’s death did not actually accomplish pardon, redemption, propitiation, and reconciliation believe the gospel. Thus, TC does NOT believe that the gospel includes the doctrine that Christ’s death actually accomplished pardon, redemption, propitiation, and reconciliation. TC does NOT believe that the gospel includes the doctrine that Christ’s blood actually atoned. TC denies that The Atonement is part of the gospel. And in doing so, TC denies the very gospel itself. TC shows that he has no idea what the gospel is. He shows that he is just as unregenerate as the universal atonement advocate is.
Finally, consider the following logic: (1) All who believe a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner are unregenerate. (2) Universal atonement is a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner. Thus, (3) all who believe universal atonement are unregenerate. TC and every person who would consider at least some universal atonement advocates to be regenerate MUST disagree with #3. And the only way people can disagree with #3 is if they disagree with at least one of the first two statements. Consider those who disagree with #1. These are people who believe that at least some who believe a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner are regenerate. Can a true Christian disagree with #1? Of course not. Consider those who disagree with #2. These are people who believe that universal atonement is not a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner. Can a true Christian disagree with #2? Of course not. Thus, all who disagree with #3 (all who consider at least some universal atonement advocates to be saved) are unregenerate.
It is no wonder that God says that anyone who speaks peace to a person who brings a false gospel is unregenerate (2 John 11). Those who say that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception deny that the death of Christ actually pardoned, redeemed, propitiated, and reconciled. They deny that Christ’s blood actually atoned. They deny that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation. They deny the very heart of the gospel. They boast and glory in themselves. They are God-haters. And those who speak peace to these God-haters, who call them brothers and sisters in Christ, who say that the universal atonement advocates believe the same gospel they do, show that they, too, deny the true gospel. They deny that the atoning, pardoning, redeeming, propitiating, reconciling blood of Christ is an essential part of the gospel. They, too, do not believe the gospel. They, too, are boasters who glory in the sinner. They, too, are God-haters.
THE Atonement whereby Jesus Christ, the God-man mediator, as a representative and substitute for His people, in His bloody death on the cross, accomplished full pardon, full redemption, full propitiation, and full reconciliation for everyone whom He represented, is the very essence, the very heart, the very core, the very foundation, the very cornerstone, the very crux of the gospel. One cannot deny The Atonement by believing in universal atonement and still believe the true gospel. All who deny The Atonement, including all who believe that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception, are not true Christians. One cannot deny that The Atonement is an essential gospel doctrine by believing that some universal atonement advocates are saved and still believe the gospel. All who deny that The Atonement is an essential gospel doctrine, including all who speak peace to universal atonement advocates, are not true Christians. The cross of Christ is what Christianity is all about. If there is no Atonement, there is no Christianity.
“For the Word of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, [it] is [the] power of God. For it has been written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the understanding of the understanding ones. Where is [the] wise? Where is [the] scribe? Where [the] lawyer of this world? Did God not make the wisdom of this world foolish? For since in the wisdom of God the world [by] wisdom did not know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of preaching to save the ones believing. And since Jews ask for a sign, and Greeks seek wisdom, we, on the other hand, preach Christ crucified (truly an offense to Jews, and foolishness to Greeks), but to the called ones, both to Jews and to Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God; because the foolish thing of God is wiser [than] men, and the weak thing of God is stronger [than] men. For you see your calling, brothers, that [there are] not many wise according to flesh, nor many powerful, not many wellborn. But God chose the foolish things of the world that the wise might be put to shame, and God chose the weak things of the world so that He might put to shame the strong things. And God chose the low-born of the world, and the despised, and the things that are not, so that He might bring to nothing the things that are, so that no flesh might glory in His presence. But of Him, you are in Christ Jesus, who was made to us wisdom from God, both righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that even as it has been written, He that glories, let him glory in [the] Lord. And when I came to you, brothers, I did not come with excellency of word or wisdom, declaring to you the testimony of God. For I decided not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ, and Him having been crucified” (1 Corinthians 1:18-2:2).
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Considering the situation and rarity I would consider it to be miraculous.
[/quote]
So God made it rain frogs, or is it a windstorm that does it? This isn’t an act of God, mert… this is a freak weather occurence. It happens, you know.
[quote]extol7extol wrote:
Whoever believes in a god who wishes things would happen (like wishing that everyone without exception would be saved) but who does not and/or cannot do whatever he wishes, does not believe in the God of the Bible.
[/quote]
You’ve got it backwards. God came first-then the bible.
You apparently believe in some kind of heartless robot who is limited by the time and space of the universe to HAVE to have made up his mind (ALREADY) in time.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Considering the situation and rarity I would consider it to be miraculous.
lothario1132 wrote:
So God made it rain frogs, or is it a windstorm that does it? This isn’t an act of God, mert… this is a freak weather occurence. It happens, you know.
[/quote]
Main Entry: miracle
Pronunciation: 'mir-i-k&l
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at
1: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
2: an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment
Yeah, so how often does it happen? once a year? Once every 10 years? Once every 1,000 years? Once every 10,000 years? I agree that it’s a freak occurrence too. A miraculous and uncommon event! Just like the Resurrection of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Just because science hasn’t found a way to explain it now doesn’t mean there isn’t a scientific explanation for it.
Dear extol7extol,
Not that it will make any difference, but we Orthodox do not believe that the sinner has power to get themselves saved. We believe that the Christian basically can do one thing, which translated means to “fall down” or stop, or perhaps something like “call for help” but that we then are saved by having our wills submitted to God.
Now when you talk about predestination or determinism, what exactly do you mean? Do you believe that 1) every movement of every atom in the universe is predetermined from the dawn of time to the end? Or is it 2) just necessary for you to believe that those who are saved have been known from the beginning?
There is a big difference. The first of these is a meaningless statement because atoms/motions are not real-they are observations about the universe and so you are basically using terms that don’t mesh with terms I am familiar with.
The second simply makes God subject to the bible and the flow of time. (as would the first, except that the first uses terms unfortunately in a context which is meaningless).
Which one is it? I’ve asked several times.
Also, I have not seen a response to the proposal which comes from scholarly sources quite outside of the Orthodox Church that the Liturgy of James the Lord’s brother was in full practice in Jerusalem by the 40’s AD, and that the Archeological conclusion is that the new testament was compiled by the apostles for the PURPOSE of being the reading in this service that paralleled that Torah in the Jewish services.
How can you , yourself cite James’ epistle, and yet not accept the service which he composed for which the Gospels were MERELY a part?
The apostles did not go around reading the bible to people. They told people about Jesus and his teaching and if they were interested in converting, they came to the first part of the Divine service called the Liturgy of the Word (or Catecheumans: meaning those preparing for baptism) and over the course of a year of preparation they would hear all of the Gospels.
Basically my questions to you are:
- What do you really mean by predestination: ALL ACTIONS, or just WHO’S SAVED WHO’S NOT?
And
- Why do you believe this? On the bible ALONE, or for other reasons (ie logic, science, etc.?
and
- If because of the Bible, why do you take it, a small portion of our Divine Liturgy written to instruct Catecheumans, tear it out of our Liturgy, and hold it up (as an idol of true worship) while rejecting the complete liturgy from which it came, and the Apostolic tradition that produced it?
You have failed on several accounts to respond at all to these. I can sonsider that you have passed over it without noticing before (as those not baptized and confirmed in the Orthodox Faith can have their eye’s easily steared by the demons at your side daily).
Ask God that HIS WILL not YOURS be done, sincerely and with a broken heart.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
You are becoming one of my very favorite posters here stellar. I hope that you are not surprised that some doctors are trying to improve the state of treatment for their field. This is one of the things that makes scientific approaches to things so effective. At no point do we say “Okay. That’s the best we will ever be able to do until the end of time.”[/quote]
First of all, my feelings are hurt! I’d expect to be your favorite poster by now without any competition. Second of all, the state of treatment should continue to improve in whichever field of science that hasn’t been thoroughly researched. Psychiatry is one of these fields. You alluded to the schizophrenic community and I merely cited a couple of top-notch psychiatrists who disputed the theories which their field blindly embraced for many years. You see lothario, Orthodox Christianity isn’t the only idealogy that embraces concepts that haven’t been proven. The difference is, that as new information surfaces in psychiatry, her theories & systems must be altered to account for any discrepancies. Being that the realm of the metaphysical is not researched to any appreciable degree, religions aren’t properly altering their structures to coincide with the true Faith of Orthodox Christianity.
I’m pro-science in every way, shape, & form. I believe that Orthodox Christianity stands up to the scrutiny of contemporary science as does the New Testament in its historical, geographical, and archaeological content. You can’t improve upon that which is perfect thus you can’t or at least shouldn’t adjust anything within the Orthodox Christian Faith.
*Pssst, pass that message along. Our Protestant and Roman Catholic friends need to hear it.
Why would they say that? God gave us brains and with them, the ability to reason. To wait for divine intervention to cure physical, psychological, or emotional ailments is preposterous indeed. And you obviously misunderstood my prior post. Some illnesses are caused by natural means and others are caused by demonic possession. If you’ve ever heard of an accredited scientific community researching this concept, you’ve perhaps found a yellow needle in a barn full of hay. Bottom line: the medical community should continue to advance in its treatments and cures but it’d be revolutionary if science converged with concepts from the spiritual realm for the cure of diseases as well.
mertdawg,
Your allusions to physics are amazing. It’s fascinating how we have two different styles which convey one congruent viewpoint.
Peace be with you bro.