Only One Truth

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
642

[quote]Fishlips wrote:
Sorry Stella but once I came to the full realization I’m trying to communicate with people who openly admit they don’t use either reason nor common sense when conversing on this subject I decided this thread had died long ago. Just checking back in here and there but not wasting all the time and effort to post.
[/quote]
Fishlips, I never claimed I didn’t use reason or common sense to explore or analyze the Christian Faith; I merely expressed that reason and common sense prove to be insufficient tools in doing so. I simply maintain that hundreds of thousands of other Bible-thumpers also cite passages from scriptures in reasonable fashions yet develop conflicting interpretations from one another, including against you. The interpretation of scriptures as were provided to you by mertdawg and myself were quite reasonable. I know you claim yours are reasonable too, but the critical difference is that the interpretations we posted for you are in perfect accordance with early Church teachings whereas yours are heretical and have no foundation or relevance within the Church which Jesus Christ established in 33 AD.

Secondly, concerning the Eucharist, you claimed the early Church did not adhere to the teaching that holy communion was the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. This is yet another false statement I’ve witnessed you make. Not only do you discount the interpretation of scriptures within the proper framework by which the Orthodox Christian Church produced & compiled them, but you also prove your ignorance (or perhaps malevolence) through such ridiculous claims.

St. Ignatius of Antioch (Epistle to the Romans c. 105 AD)
“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire His blood, which is love incorruptible.”

St. Ignatius of Antioch (Epistle to the Smyrneans c. 105 AD)
“Heretics abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ.”

St. Justin Martyr (First Apology c. 150 AD)
“Not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the Flesh and Blood of that incarnated Jesus.”

St. Irenaeus (Against Heresies 189 AD)
“If the Lord were from other than the Father (and thus capable of performing miracles), how could He rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be His Body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is His Blood? When, therefore, the mixed cup (wine and water) and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the Body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is nourished by the Body and Blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of Him?”

Fishlips, your theological system has crumbled before your eyes. The sheer folly of your preaching is evident for all to see. The decision is yours; remain a heretic or wholeheartedly convert to the true Faith for a fighting chance at salvation.

Take it easy…

643

“Our priests don’t shave their beards like the heretics do? Our priests don’t wear collars like the heretics do?” Awesome.

Bush lied, the radio star died!

644

You can provide anecdotal evidence to ‘prove’ almost anything. Show me studies which are published and peer-reviewed and I will be the biggest advocate of the healing power of prayer.

645

[quote]Cream wrote:
“Our priests don’t shave their beards like the heretics do? Our priests don’t wear collars like the heretics do?” In the time it took you to type that absolute nonsense out, and feel superior to the heretics, you missed a chance to do something good. You may have read the Book but apparently you missed the Point.
[/quote]
So why don’t you tell us what the point is? You’ve chosen to take cheap-shots at Christians instead of discussing theology, so I don’t think you’ve got any right arguing about who’s wasting golden opportunities. Every post you’ve written in this thread was an attempt to bruise the true Christian spirit. You obviously don’t understand the significance of the external features of the true Christian Faith, so who can assume you’ll understand the meaning of the internal? Wishful thinking is not always practical, and you’ve exhibited this time-and-time again. And for the record, ignorance of Truth won’t be a valid excuse for anyone in that glorious Day of Judgment. If you think the time & effort I spent posting on this thread was to make myself feel superior to heretics, your perception is severely warped. I’ve merely preached right from wrong in accordance with the Church which Jesus Christ instituted. If my preaching has offended you, then your qualms are with none other than the Creator Himself.

Instead of igniting wars with Christians on this thread, go battle your real adversary - the devil.

646

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
And for the record, ignorance of Truth won’t be a valid excuse for anyone in that glorious Day of Judgment. [/quote]

YEAH! Anyone who doesn’t know about God’s infinite love for us will burn in the fires of hell FOREVER! Right ON!

647

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
And for the record, ignorance of Truth won’t be a valid excuse for anyone in that glorious Day of Judgment.
T-chick wrote:
YEAH! Anyone who doesn’t know about God’s infinite love for us will burn in the fires of hell FOREVER! Right ON!
[/quote]
I’m under the impression that you rejoice over this fact. Why react in this way? You don’t grasp how ignorance has a detrimental impact on your spiritual disposition; nor do you understand the need to engage in spiritual therapies as assigned and contained within the true Christian Faith.

If there was someone you truly cherished and loved with all your heart and they were diagnosed with cancer, yet they didn’t believe they were diseased and refused to believe they needed treatment (despite your persistence in trying to save them), wouldn’t you be saddened? And if that person wouldn’t listen and chose to remain ignorant about treatments such as chemotherapy and surgery, wouldn’t they die in the very near future? I don’t think you’d be rejoicing at their funeral.

So it is with God in His infinite love for you as He relentlessly calls you to be cured of your spiritual maladies before the time of your earthly demise. The ignorant have limited access to spiritual cures because they either don’t believe in them, fail to apply them, and/or have not enrolled within the Orthodox Christian Church which is referred to as a spiritual hospital. While I fight to be spiritually healed, I pity those who do not.

Take it easy…

648

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
The ignorant have limited access to spiritual cures because they either don’t believe in them, fail to apply them, and/or have not enrolled within the Orthodox Christian Church which is referred to as a spiritual hospital. While I fight to be spiritually healed, I pity those who do not.

Take it easy…[/quote]

But stellar, what if we aren’t sick, and it’s just your own fear or some guy in a robe telling you that you are which is the basis for your faith?

It’s not so bad for you as I outlined before, because you aren’t burning me at the stake anymore, but maybe you’ll stop fretting over all of us heathens if you realize that we aren’t going to suffer in the way that you think we are.

But then, you would realize that you wouldn’t have to suffer either, and then… well then you’d be free, and the entire belief system you aspire to uplift in prayer and the care and devotion which is so obvious to everyone in the forum… it would come crashing down.

Without the fear, there isn’t anything. I’m glad that this concept doesn’t bother you, but it bothers me. Fear should not control us, it’s the most important thing we should stand against. When I see institutions and prejudices which rely on fear, I like to tell them how full of shizzle they are.

649

[quote]T-chick wrote:
You can provide anecdotal evidence to ‘prove’ almost anything. Show me studies which are published and peer-reviewed and I will be the biggest advocate of the healing power of prayer.
[/quote]

You can find peer reviewed studies to ‘prove’ almost anything. Find me a believable anecdotal source.

650

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
stellar_horizon wrote:
The ignorant have limited access to spiritual cures because they either don’t believe in them, fail to apply them, and/or have not enrolled within the Orthodox Christian Church which is referred to as a spiritual hospital. While I fight to be spiritually healed, I pity those who do not.

Take it easy…

But stellar, what if we aren’t sick, and it’s just your own fear or some guy in a robe telling you that you are which is the basis for your faith?

It’s not so bad for you as I outlined before, because you aren’t burning me at the stake anymore, but maybe you’ll stop fretting over all of us heathens if you realize that we aren’t going to suffer in the way that you think we are.

But then, you would realize that you wouldn’t have to suffer either, and then… well then you’d be free, and the entire belief system you aspire to uplift in prayer and the care and devotion which is so obvious to everyone in the forum… it would come crashing down.

Without the fear, there isn’t anything. I’m glad that this concept doesn’t bother you, but it bothers me. Fear should not control us, it’s the most important thing we should stand against. When I see institutions and prejudices which rely on fear, I like to tell them how full of shizzle they are.[/quote]

You think God was invented so that we don’t have to accept our mortality. I think you invent the idea of no God so that you don’t have to accept sin.

651

[quote]T-chick wrote:
You can provide anecdotal evidence to ‘prove’ almost anything. Show me studies which are published and peer-reviewed and I will be the biggest advocate of the healing power of prayer.
[/quote]

you mean ones like these:
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/search?fulltext=healing+power+of+prayer&submit.x=14&submit.y=10&submit=GO

this one:

or the one that was mentioned on Paul Harvey News last week (I believe it found that those suffering from chronic pain benefited most from consistent prayer). Additionally you can look up the 1984 study by Dr. Randolph Byrd as well as many similar articles contained in JAMA.

eagerly expecting your advocacy. (-:

652

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
But stellar, what if we aren’t sick, and it’s just your own fear or some guy in a robe telling you that you are which is the basis for your faith?
[/quote]
My fears are not based upon a man in a robe - my fears are derived from ancient beliefs and affirmed by God’s Word. Judaism shares similar principles regarding the afterlife as well as plenty of warnings concerning the final disposition of those who fail to abide in God’s ways. The prophets, the kings, and the scriptures testified of a gehenna or hell in the pre-Christian era. Even the Hellenes and their abundance of metaphysical philosophers like Plato believed in Hades, a realm of suffering in the afterlife. When God became Incarnate, He re-iterated what the ancients believed. Why, because He wanted to copy from mythological societies? No, because He designed all humans with equivalent spiritual equipment and the polytheists shared in a portion of Truth even before He fully revealed Himself. The anxiety and fear of an afterlife is innate and natural to all humans, but many (such as yourself) have repressed this concept like a horrible nightmare. Psychology teaches that this repression of fear is a coping mechanism, a survival tool for the weak and cowardly. Nonetheless, cowards will by no means enter the kingdom of God. You cling to the world and idolize it like a scared little boy tightly gripping his mommy’s dress when a strong gush of wind blows. In my perspective, atheists like you are the most fearful people on the planet even though they’ll never admit it.

You made me smirk when you insinuated that fear controls Christians. You obviously have no clue about our struggle. The first level is purification whereby believers experience a healthy dose of fear and abide in God’s ways to avert a final disposition of hellish torment (punishment). The second level is illumination whereby believers experience a healthy zeal to abide in God’s ways to gain heavenly bliss (rewards). The third level is glorification, (also known as deification, sanctification, or theosis) whereby believers experience the perfect bond with the Creator and abide in God’s ways because they’ve matured to love God and all of His creations; they no longer follow God to avert punishment or to gain a reward. Why don’t you check out the thread Orthodox Christian Saints and read how fearless the sanctified ones have proven to be in the face of death and extreme tortures. These marvelous human beings were not controlled by fear - they were controlled by love.

Fear is the activating emotion, but it melts away as the believer draws closer to God. For you to claim that Christianity is based upon the element of fear is to prove your blindness regarding the true Christian Faith.

My (hopefully) final words to you in this thread:
Let go of your mommy’s dress and suit up for battle!

653

[quote]edgecrusher wrote:
T-chick wrote:
You can provide anecdotal evidence to ‘prove’ almost anything. Show me studies which are published and peer-reviewed and I will be the biggest advocate of the healing power of prayer.

you mean ones like these:
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/search?fulltext=healing+power+of+prayer&submit.x=14&submit.y=10&submit=GO

this one:

or the one that was mentioned on Paul Harvey News last week (I believe it found that those suffering from chronic pain benefited most from consistent prayer). Additionally you can look up the 1984 study by Dr. Randolph Byrd as well as many similar articles contained in JAMA.

eagerly expecting your advocacy. (-:[/quote]

Did you actually READ these? Yes, you found studies on the healing power of prayer - well done! Here’s what one of them said -

EXPERIMENTAL studies on the health effects of distant intercession (prayer) ignore important facets of construct validity, philosophy of science, and theology while focusing on issues like randomization and double-blinding. These tendencies reflect a desire on the part of researchers to remove nature as a causal factor when intercession seems efficacious. We argue that close attention to construct validity of cause-and-effect variables invalidates distant intercessory prayer as a scientific construct.

The most decisive study can only conclude that prayer MAY have been a factor in showing a slight improvement in some patients, but notes that the length of the hospital stays don’t differ at all between patients who were prayed for and those that weren’t.

654

[quote]pkradgreek wrote:
This is just a fire starter to all who consider themselves “Christians.” Realize the importance of Apostolic succession as stated in the Holy Bible. Then go trace the succession of your own church. Realize that there is only one truth and any deviations from it make something a lie. I just wanted to make that comment while the election of the new Franco-Latin “pope” was still fresh in people’s heads. And no matter how long the lie exists for, it is still a lie. laters pk[/quote]

There is one truth, but it isn’t contained in any religion, science hasn’t found it and possibly never will. Maybe we’ll learn what it is when we die, but maybe we won’t. So, learn to live with uncertainty and get over it.

Getting caught up in pointless arguments like this distracts us all from what we should be doing, whether or not we profess a religious belief or not - making the world a better place for its inhabitants.

If you can’t bring yourself to volunteer a little time at a shelter or a community garden or your local habitat for humanity or any other worthy cause, then your soul, if you believe you have one, isn’t worth saving anyway. So, instead of engaging in mental mastubation, shut your pie hole, get up off your ass and contribute - after you nail your daily workout and pound a serving of Surge of course. . .

655

T-chick,

1.You said, “Show me studies which are published and peer-reviewed and I will be the biggest advocate of the healing power of prayer.” I gave the studies, now I expect your advocacy (although I’m not holding my breath). (-:

2.And did I read them? Well I read enough to know that you copy and pasted (without quotation marks I might add) the first 150 words of the first article from the first link, and that you only focussed on the fact that “the length of the hospital stays don’t differ at all between patients who were prayed for and those that weren’t,” while neglecting to note that “on average, the 500 patients prayed for had 11% less complications during their stay in hospital.”

3.I think we should just agree to disagree, since you seem to have already drawn your own conclusions about this subject, even though prior to yesterday, you didn’t even know such studies existed.

656
  1. Fishlips: I believe that Orthodox Christianity is the traditional, valid, one, true way for Christians to believe and practice in accordance with God’s will BECAUSE I have experienced it. I can only assume that your experience of your daily spiritual life have convinced you of the same for your beliefs, nevertheless, our basic points of contention are 1) whether God exists as a holy trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit and 2) Whether the Eucharist is truly Christ’s divine and restored (not fallen) flesh and blood.

You contend that these are two pieces of propoganda devised by the “fairly early” orthodox church perhaps from the time of the Nicean council, perhaps even earlier. Stella and I have provided several pieces of historical evidence that these theologies go back further-CLEARLY to at least around 100 AD when the first generation of successors to the apostles had succeeded to them, and PROBABLY back to the 40s AD when the apostles WERE the bishops of the Orthodox church as I posit. We have clear EXTRA-Biblical evidence that the Christians of 40-50 AD believed and confessed the trinity and Orthodox view of the Eucharist in the churches where the Apostles themselves were the priests of the weekly services.

I have also provided evidence that the Gospels were produced and compiled to serve as the official reading in the weekly service to provide uniformity among the ancient churches.

The way I see it, your argument comes down to two very fragile arguments: 1)The gospels (written by the apostles) somehow became the single complete source of truth about God while all of the other writings and practices of the apostles and their direct followers did not have this special characteristic and therefore should be discounted as a means of interpreting the bible and 2) your interpretation of the bible though different from that of the apostles (demonstrated by other writings and practices) is correct and that of the apostles who wrote them is wrong despite the fact that the bible itself speaks of other sources of truth which the apostles passed down.

Why? Were they that confused? Were they thinking-hey we’ll get lots more pagan converts if we include the trinity (we’ll of course die terrible deaths but we can build the biggest club in history).

Or to be fair, you can argue that the apostles teachings and practices became distorted and propogandized beyond recognition by those who followed them-many of whom were martyrs themselves.

  1. extol7extol:
    Perhaps the biggest scientific development of the last century is that our universe is not PHYSICALY deterministic. The laws are deterministic when we view the complete wave function of the universe-certain things are allowed with certain defined probabilities and others are excluded from possibility, but the collapsed wave function which we all live in could have followed and could continue to follow any of trillions of different paths. This is approaching a first principal of science.

Furthermore, for it NOT to be true, science and human reason would fail because our conclusions would be pre-determined whether they were wrong or right. You can not prove or posit physical determination because you deny your ability to prove or posit or even in principle to reject.

  1. Pookie and Lothario: there are logical reasons to argue that humans invented God for psycholocial/societal/evolutionary needs. Aside from an overreaction to the corruption of religious institutions throughout history, it is not any more logical to START with the premise “no creator” than the premise “creator”.

Is there evidence in favor of one or the other? You can certainly argue that if a creator wanted to reveal himself clearly, it would be very easy, yet God has not been revealed to you clearly. The Orthodox argument is the God is evident, but that human nature is fallen, obscuring the evidence.

I understand that that sounds like classic rationalization. I would state here that the apostles of Christ believed in this fallenness even though they were fully faithful. Again, you can say they weren’t really faithful, but just wanted there to be a God so much that they had to protect their house of cards.

I understand that Christianity LOOKS to be carefully devised to explain why God is not more evident. There are only two lines of reasoning I can offer you. Humans are special, not just compared to other animals. This has even been suggested by physicists (although granted Pookie, not the only view). Quantum physics basically says that the universe is composed of “observables” and that what makes something an observation still needs to be clearly defined.

Traditional quantum physicist propose that human choice in making observations is special action that constructs reality out of “probability”. Others of course posit only the need for the universe to pass certain local states of irreversibility. The problem is, that we being humans making observations can not prove what does and does not collapse the wave function outside of our own observation, but we still can show that our observation affects what we define as the universe.

I will only argue that if we believe that humans truly make free will choices, while animals are driven by deterministic laws, then there is something called free will which needs to be properly accounted for in science and may lead science to strongly posit a God. (It also creates questions like is one choice good and another choice bad ie moral choices which may or may not be describable by the laws of physics alone.)

The second argument is that if you look at all other world religions, you can find the logical gap somewhere, or a “theology patch” to match with new scientific discoveries. If you truly investigate Orthodox Christianity, I think you will find that it has survived without the need for such patches, and quite often turns out to be remarkably in line-almost predictive of new discoveries.

I am convinced that no other “religion” is worth a Damn.

657

[quote]edgecrusher wrote:
T-chick,

1.You said, “Show me studies which are published and peer-reviewed and I will be the biggest advocate of the healing power of prayer.” I gave the studies, now I expect your advocacy (although I’m not holding my breath). (-:

2.And did I read them? Well I read enough to know that you copy and pasted (without quotation marks I might add) the first 150 words of the first article from the first link, and that you only focussed on the fact that “the length of the hospital stays don’t differ at all between patients who were prayed for and those that weren’t,” while neglecting to note that “on average, the 500 patients prayed for had 11% less complications during their stay in hospital.”

3.I think we should just agree to disagree, since you seem to have already drawn your own conclusions about this subject, even though prior to yesterday, you didn’t even know such studies existed.[/quote]

And you showed me peer reviewed studies that were on the topic of prayer, not peer reviewed studies that came to the conclusion that prayer worked.

I humbly apologise for the lack of quote marks - however I clearly i wasn’t trying to plagiarise because i prefaced it by saying ‘here is an excerpt’.

I never claimed that studies had never been done, I was saying ‘show me the studies that prove that it works’.

658

[quote]TLS wrote:
There is one truth, but it isn’t contained in any religion, science hasn’t found it and possibly never will. Maybe we’ll learn what it is when we die, but maybe we won’t. So, learn to live with uncertainty and get over it.

Getting caught up in pointless arguments like this distracts us all from what we should be doing, whether or not we profess a religious belief or not - making the world a better place for its inhabitants.

If you can’t bring yourself to volunteer a little time at a shelter or a community garden or your local habitat for humanity or any other worthy cause, then your soul, if you believe you have one, isn’t worth saving anyway. So, instead of engaging in mental mastubation, shut your pie hole, get up off your ass and contribute - after you nail your daily workout and pound a serving of Surge of course. . .[/quote]

Someone else who has their head on straight. Good post.

But I just can’t stop my mental masturbation sometimes, sorry. Do you have any “mental kleenex”? I think I’m about to make a “mental mess” on my keyboard! :slight_smile:

659

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
My (hopefully) final words to you in this thread:
Let go of your mommy’s dress and suit up for battle![/quote]

LOL!!! Damn you make me laugh stellar.

LET GO OF YOUR FRIGGIN’ CROSS AND SUIT UP FOR BATTLE!!

See? I can be all tough too. BTW, you realize that you admitted I was right about the fear, don’t you? I’m not calling y’all pussies or anything, but come on. If I’m not afraid of hell, then what’s the point?

660

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
You think God was invented so that we don’t have to accept our mortality. I think you invent the idea of no God so that you don’t have to accept sin.
[/quote]

Interesting take on this, mert. But you have to wonder what the starting point is… are we naturally fearful of God or the idea of Almighty Power and its wrath, and must overcome this fear to become atheists? You can make a very strong argument for this, but I would say that it is the fear of death and the superstitious consequences of death which is overcome instead.

Point of view is such a cool and powerful part or our existence here. You guys see things every day which reaffirm your faith in God, and I see things every day which reaffirms my faith in humanity.

Honestly, I don’t reject God so that I can feel justified in “sinning”, I reject the idea of God because I am satisfied with the world and this reality, and I don’t feel like I should try to add stuff to it in my mind. In other words, dark shadows don’t have to contain boogeymen – they’re just shadows. Nightmares don’t have to mean anything – they’re just bad dreams. That kind of thing.

661

[quote]T-chick wrote:
And you showed me peer reviewed studies that were on the topic of prayer, not peer reviewed studies that came to the conclusion that prayer worked…[/quote]

You never asked for studies that prooved whether prayer worked or not, you just asked for the studies. (-:

I never said you were. Also, don’t apologize, I honestly don’t care that much(although now I feel like a 7th grade english teacher). The only reason I said anything was that figuring out who wrote that third paragraph took a minute.

You do have to admit that many of these studies conclusions are very interesting (especially the 1999 one(from the second link)), however depending on your presuppositions, these facts will always be interpreted differently.(as was shown by how you focussed on the duration of patient stays, and not the percentage of complications encountered by the two groups of patients.)