Yes, Russian technique teaches a shrug (that’s actually how I was coached). Really it’s a matter of the important thing is not what you think that is important, but that what you think leads to the correct movement. The movement is so fast that you can’t think about pulling yourself down under the bar by using your traps… you just think about firing the traps at the top of the pull. It’s dumb to confuse the athlete with a long sentence, just use a simple term like “fire the traps” or “shrug at the end” to get the body doing what you want.
For example they also teach that you should jump up, where in reality what happens is that you are standing up with the barbell as fast as you can, then moving your feet to get into a better position for the reception. But if you think “stand up fast, use the barbell to pull yourself under then move your feet laterally” there is not way you’ll make the lift, it’s too fast. That’s why something like “jump and punch the traps”, even though it’s not what you should really try to do, will actually get the body doing the right thing… motor learning is sometimes a very weird thing![/quote]
Great post.
[quote]bkbetz wrote:
Very good explanation. I would agree the 3rd pulling phase you outlined is actually a pull, not just a drop under even though some don’t count it as a pull.
CT,
Why and when did you stop competing in Oly lifting?[/quote]
1999 although I still trained for it for a bit more than a year.
The truth is that I was a very bad lifter… a very STRONG bad lifter. I could front squat 210kg, back squat 270kg and 250kg for 5 reps, push press 140kg for 5 reps, etc. I could power snatch 115kg for 5 reps from blocks and power clean 155kg for 5 from the hang. Yet despite having a best gym lift of 142.5kg on the snatch, I could miss 60kg 10 times in a row. I remember one competiting, bombing out with 115kg in the snatch, going to the warm-up room and power snatch it 3 times,
Not only was I a bad technical lifter, I also didn’t handle pressure well.
Anyway at one point I went to one of the best coaches in Canada. I would drive 90 minutes every morning and every night to go to the gym, 6 days a week (the gas was a little less expensive back then). Despite the coaching and 4 hours of daily training, my actual olympic lifting didn’t improve. So I figured if I’m that strong yet cannot learn to lift properly maybe I’m not made for this.
Then I injured my left biceps and decided to get ripped since I couldn’t lift heavy for a while. I like the attention I was getting and stuck to that for some time.
Intermittently I had the urge to start over but even though I was still strong, I lost mobility and explosiveness… and didn’t gain any patience… so I didn’t stick with it.
Then I began coaching the lifts a lot, I spent hundreds of hours studying technique and teaching sequences… solving learning issues also made me understand what I was doing wrong. So I decided to relearn the lift. The olympic lifts are what I love to do the most. I don’t have any plans to compete but I enjoy doing them again, now knowing what I’m doing!
@CT: I love the “stand up with the bar as fast as you can,” cue. I have never heard it put that way or thought that way, but that really makes it simple in my brain. There’s nothing like making things as simple as possible! Thanks for the awesome cue!
Those are big numbers. Have you been able to reach or exceed those numbers in any of the respective lifts you’ve mentioned in the last few years? Also, do you have any of your Oly lifters ever train a low bar squat or strictly high bar?
Those are big numbers. Have you been able to reach or exceed those numbers in any of the respective lifts you’ve mentioned in the last few years? Also, do you have any of your Oly lifters ever train a low bar squat or strictly high bar?[/quote]
I have a follow-on question to this. CT, you often relate stories about when you put on a good amount of weight doing such and such a program. The last post you talked about this was in relation to pulse loading with the old mag10 where I believe you said you got up to about 230 lbs at some point. I was wondering if during these “mass gaining” phases that you go through if you have appreciable increases in strength and then what you do when you drop weight (which I assume you do otherwise you would be about 400 lbs or more by now from the combined effect of all of these phases)". What I mean is, is your strength constantly fluctuating with you total mass?
Those are big numbers. Have you been able to reach or exceed those numbers in any of the respective lifts you’ve mentioned in the last few years? Also, do you have any of your Oly lifters ever train a low bar squat or strictly high bar?[/quote]
I just started training the olympic lifts again and I’m mostly re-learning technique right now so I can’t say that I approached those numbers
I don’t train that many olympic lifters (3), when I coach the olympic lifts it’s mostly to crossfit competitors (although many of the crossfit girls I train would qualify for the nationals in weightlifting). It depends on how you define “low bar squat”…“low bar squat” the way its proponents refer to not only the position of the bar, but also on the position of the body (bar lower on the traps, wider stance, hips moving back first, torso leaning forward more)… personally I call it a “power squat” or “powerlifting squat”. I don’t like the term “high bar squat” since you can squat with the barbell low on your traps while keeping an upright torso, moving the knees first and using a narrower stance.
So if you talk about doing a powerlifting squat, then NO. If you are talking about putting the bar low on your traps while keeping an upright torso, why not if the athlete is comfortable. I’m more interested on body positions than where the bar is.
Those are big numbers. Have you been able to reach or exceed those numbers in any of the respective lifts you’ve mentioned in the last few years? Also, do you have any of your Oly lifters ever train a low bar squat or strictly high bar?[/quote]
I have a follow-on question to this. CT, you often relate stories about when you put on a good amount of weight doing such and such a program. The last post you talked about this was in relation to pulse loading with the old mag10 where I believe you said you got up to about 230 lbs at some point. I was wondering if during these “mass gaining” phases that you go through if you have appreciable increases in strength and then what you do when you drop weight (which I assume you do otherwise you would be about 400 lbs or more by now from the combined effect of all of these phases)". What I mean is, is your strength constantly fluctuating with you total mass?[/quote]
Yes, I find strength to be highly correlated with bodyweight, sadly.
I say sadly because I cannot stay “big/heavy” for long (even if it’s muscle) because of my health condition. Anytime I go above 215 I start to feel bad. This is why sometimes I will see how far I can push it for 4-6 weeks, then drop back down.
Some lifts seem to be more affected by weight fluctuations. Oddly enough for me the bench press is the lift being the most affected by weight loss and the olympic lifts and deadlifts are the least affected. The military press is almost as much affected as the bench press and the squat is in the middle. But I’m sure that it depends on the individual.
Doesn’t this make strength markers on a “cut” or physique prep difficult? Because your leverages go down, you’re losing bodyweight…yet everyone says maintain or even improve strength on the big lifts while cutting down. How does that really even work?
[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
Doesn’t this make strength markers on a “cut” or physique prep difficult? Because your leverages go down, you’re losing bodyweight…yet everyone says maintain or even improve strength on the big lifts while cutting down. How does that really even work? [/quote]
It works if you try to do everything in your power to prevent strength from going down. By doing that you can maintain it or even improve it, at least for a significant period of time. Keep in mind that I’m an “all or nothing” guy. So when I try to get my weight up I’m really aggressive about it (5-6 PLAZMA doses per workout, sometimes twice a day, high carbs, etc.) but when I start to feel bad I’m just as aggressive to bring my weight down. RAPID weight loss makes it hard to maintain strength. Being smarter about it and doing it gradually makes it easier to prevent strength loss.
But you did bring up an interesting point: when losing weight your leverages become less advantageous. We could add that making the muscles “fuller” also gives you better internal leverage. And also by making the muscles fuller (I mean increased intramuscular water retention and glycogen storage) you are increasing the friction between the muscle fibers which INCREASES eccentric strength… which is why when you drop weight fast or have flat muscles the WEIGHT FEELS HEAVY ON THE WAY DOWN… because the flatter the muscle, the lesser the intramuscular friction, the harder it is to do the eccentric. So by making the eccentric harder you (1) spend more energy during that phase (2) can get psyched out, both of which makes the lifting phase much harder.
Interestingly my regular bench press strength has always been A LOT more affected than my bench press from pins strength for that reason.
So we must understand that strength loss can come from worst leverages, flatter muscles and muscle loss. Some people are more affected than others in the first 2… myself for example I’m a water storing machine! My muscles can literally double in volume when I’m holding more fluids, which explains why I can add a lot of “mass” when I try to get bigger. And for some reason most of the water retention will be inside the muscles. Which explains why I’m more affected than most when it comes to losing strength when losing weight. Not everybody is like that, I’ve trained many people for competitions… right now a figure girl and an IFBB pro and both maintained strength during their whole prep, it was the same thing with Daryl Gee when I worked with him… but they all have a “very stable” physiology in that their water retention doesn’t fluctuate.
So some people will be more prone to lose strength when losing weight than others. BUT the attempt to maintain or gain strength is the actual key to muscle preservation.
Great food for thought! I never thought about the way water was stored in my body before…I need to consider that a bit. Thanks for the detailed discussion!
Thanks CT cool insights. The intramuscular swelling/leverage effect and difficult eccentric statements are unique. The days my body finds the barbell hard are the ones where I don’t get a pump AND the negatives are hard…and you’re absolutely right these are also the days my performance is crappiest and mental pysche sucks.
And an ideal activation before the main lift should pump the muscles up right? I find plazma aids in this wonderfully.
Today my main lift was military press (first rep is off floor clean style). Usually when I go straight into overhead pressing the weight always feels heavy (especially negative) and joints hurt/don’t get good pump or performance. But I did some ring work before hand (front/back lever comp and iron cross pulls, about 3 sets each) and my whole body felt ballooned up and activated. Pressing after this felt incredibly stable and eccentrics and the groove natural. I felt that “upper shelf” feeling for the first time.
Dunno if I’d get the same effect with the pre-pump (lateral raises, isolation stuff) or if the rings were just added a next level of activation and flexibility.
As an aside about to finish first bottle of micro pa and haven’t really noticed anything (other than oddly enough lower stamina when I take it preworkout or maybe just imagining things). MAG-10 and plazma rock. So does brain candy (:
Today my main lift was military press (first rep is off floor clean style). Usually when I go straight into overhead pressing the weight always feels heavy (especially negative) and joints hurt/don’t get good pump or performance. But I did some ring work before hand (front/back lever comp and iron cross pulls, about 3 sets each) and my whole body felt ballooned up and activated. Pressing after this felt incredibly stable and eccentrics and the groove natural. I felt that “upper shelf” feeling for the first time.
[/quote]
Not exactly a pump but the regular ramp up CT talks about prepares the body for the higher loads. I have no idea but I get the feeling that a pump (any beyond light) could be detrimental.
CT, would you say strength and weigth fluctuation could be related to muscle fibers type? For instance I’ve been fluctuating weigth wise for a while now and I lost about 10 lbs in a couple of months yet my maxes on the deadlift and overhead press have improved (about 35 lbs on deads and 20 lbs on the press).
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
2. I don’t train that many olympic lifters (3), when I coach the olympic lifts it’s mostly to crossfit competitors (although many of the crossfit girls I train would qualify for the nationals in weightlifting).[/quote]
Do you coach the lifts any differently for the crossfitters as opposed to the olympic lifters? As a weightlifting purist I’d like to believe that doing the lifts properly with good technique will result in a stronger more efficient lifter which should result in better scores and times in your typical CrossFit workouts, but when it comes to doing extremely high reps with very low percentages of your max for time, I’m just not sure if that’s the case.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
2. I don’t train that many olympic lifters (3), when I coach the olympic lifts it’s mostly to crossfit competitors (although many of the crossfit girls I train would qualify for the nationals in weightlifting).[/quote]
Do you coach the lifts any differently for the crossfitters as opposed to the olympic lifters? As a weightlifting purist I’d like to believe that doing the lifts properly with good technique will result in a stronger more efficient lifter which should result in better scores and times in your typical CrossFit workouts, but when it comes to doing extremely high reps with very low percentages of your max for time, I’m just not sure if that’s the case.[/quote]
When I coach them, I coach them as if they were olympic lifters. I feel that a mistake that many people working with Crossfit athletes make is trying to adjust the strength/weightlifting workouts for Crossfit (e.g. training with higher reps, doing more “power variations” of the lifts)… their logic is that in Crossfit they need to be able to perform the lifts in a fatigued state. And it makes sense.
But my rebutal is that they already do plenty of this (olympic lifts in a fatigued state, power variations of the lifts) during their WODs/Metcon sessions that it’s already plenty trained. If anything they actually need LESS reps, LESS “power” variations, MORE rest between sets, MORE intensity (% of their max) and MORE strength work because these are the things they are lacking.
It’s like having a long distance runner do sets of 30 reps in the gym… WHY? The guy is already getting more than enough endurance work as it is…
The same could be said about technique. They already do plenty of “loose form lifting” during their metcon that I feel that reinforcing proper technique during the weightlifting sessions is super important.
Today my main lift was military press (first rep is off floor clean style). Usually when I go straight into overhead pressing the weight always feels heavy (especially negative) and joints hurt/don’t get good pump or performance. But I did some ring work before hand (front/back lever comp and iron cross pulls, about 3 sets each) and my whole body felt ballooned up and activated. Pressing after this felt incredibly stable and eccentrics and the groove natural. I felt that “upper shelf” feeling for the first time.
[/quote]
Not exactly a pump but the regular ramp up CT talks about prepares the body for the higher loads. I have no idea but I get the feeling that a pump (any beyond light) could be detrimental.
CT, would you say strength and weigth fluctuation could be related to muscle fibers type? For instance I’ve been fluctuating weigth wise for a while now and I lost about 10 lbs in a couple of months yet my maxes on the deadlift and overhead press have improved (about 35 lbs on deads and 20 lbs on the press).[/quote]
Where does the weight comes from? If you lost 10lbs of fat and 5lbs of water, yet gained 5lbs of muscle you will likely get stronger because you have more muscle… even if your leverages are worse, you still have more muscle to do the work.