Oldest Human-Linked Skeleton Found

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
If you don’t mind my asking, what/who made you change your mind? [/quote]

The blatant hypocrisy in organized religion, our desire to put human characteristics on God. Little things, really. I won’t hell yeah there ain’t no gawd, but I will say that if there is…

  1. It’s not a God anything like us.
  2. If it is, then he isn’t worth worshiping.

This is where science steps in, and we can begin to unravel the mysteries of the universe. We used to think the world was flat, the sun revolved around us, and drilling holes in the cranium was a good way to release evil spirits. With the advent of modern science, we are now starting to throw away the garbage.

42

[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
Makavali wrote:
kylec72 wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:

I think that was taken a little out of context, plus you have to remember the bible was written by man and then translated many times. The overall teachings of most religions is to be good to your fellow man. Times have changed a lot since it was written. People were treated differently back then. Just look at racism and homosexuality. Look how peoples views have changed on that within the last 30 years.[/quote]

The fact that you yourself agree, the bible was written by man thousands of years ago based on myths and literature copied and borrowed from numerous civilizations. Stories about Jesus’ life/birth/death are all conjured up to such an extent that people blindly believe it to be true to last word. There are unimaginable stories such as the great flood and Noah’s ark and all that garbage. But can you really believe in a God who needed 6 days to create the universe and on the seventh he rested and lit up a joint?

I myself find it incredibly annoyed by people who announce religion openly as if they are proud of it. I understand being proud of culture and your upbringing but is religion really something that you can lean upon on a daily basis? The same religion that persecutes sects of their own kind. The same religion that promotes racism. The same religion that has hindered the productivity and technological advancements.

All in all, I accept people for what they are. But if they don’t believe that I have a coin in my closed fist even after opening it, its pretty damn pathetic.

The hardcore creationist will be the first one to deny a theory supported by ample proof and references and axioms. Even the utmost truths and mathematical theorems have an uncertainty to them. (See Gödel’s incompleteness theorems). But the real question is “Will anything change the mind of a believer”?

43

If Jesus was going around Palestine with hordes of people following him everywhere, if he was performing miracles all over the place, if he was making the dead rise, curing the sick, making the blind see and then declaring himself to be the son of god, how come there’s not one single contemporary account of his life? I mean, it’s not like the Romans didn’t keep records about the places they ruled. You’d think such events would’ve been noticed by at least SOMEONE with a bit of papyrus handy…

44

[quote]Badunk wrote:
If Jesus was going around Palestine with hordes of people following him everywhere, if he was performing miracles all over the place, if he was making the dead rise, curing the sick, making the blind see and then declaring himself to be the son of god, how come there’s not one single contemporary account of his life? I mean, it’s not like the Romans didn’t keep records about the places they ruled. You’d think such events would’ve been noticed by at least SOMEONE with a bit of papyrus handy…[/quote]

Shhhh, you’ll upset someone with facts…

45

[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
kylec72 wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
This is interesting to me, I live my life as if there is a god, whether there is one or not is yet to be proven. But if I didn’t believe in eternal happiness/damnation I would be a very scary individual. My belief is what stops me from doing many things. I don’t fear our prison system or other people, but hell on the other hand. With an imagination like mine, that is a place to fear.

God is not synonymous with morality, or rather morality is not limited to theism.

I understand this and did not mean to imply that without religion there is no morality. I’m trying to say if there are no consequences for your actions then we can do whatever we want. To me jail or prison isn’t a punishment I’m afraid of. If it’s enough to deter others thats great, I just don’t see it as something to fear.[/quote]

Our moral conscious ultimately decides what is right or wrong, yet why must one need a moral authority in order to do good? Murder is murder regardless of in light of a god or not. The person dies equally in either situation. Why does a world without a god make murder any less reprehensible or a more attractive action?

46

[quote]Xobile wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
Makavali wrote:
kylec72 wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:

I think that was taken a little out of context, plus you have to remember the bible was written by man and then translated many times. The overall teachings of most religions is to be good to your fellow man. Times have changed a lot since it was written. People were treated differently back then. Just look at racism and homosexuality. Look how peoples views have changed on that within the last 30 years.

The fact that you yourself agree, the bible was written by man thousands of years ago based on myths and literature copied and borrowed from numerous civilizations. Stories about Jesus’ life/birth/death are all conjured up to such an extent that people blindly believe it to be true to last word. There are unimaginable stories such as the great flood and Noah’s ark and all that garbage. But can you really believe in a God who needed 6 days to create the universe and on the seventh he rested and lit up a joint?

Why is the great flood garbage? You don’t think there could have been a flood of that magnitude? A billion years ago or how ever long, all the continents used to be one, now they’re all separated. Is that a myth too? How much of the world could Noah have known about? We don’t know what actually happened that long ago. Someone wrote down a story about it but because it’s so old we’ve stopped believing. People are already claiming the holocaust never happened. Even with how well documented it was.

I myself find it incredibly annoyed by people who announce religion openly as if they are proud of it. I understand being proud of culture and your upbringing but is religion really something that you can lean upon on a daily basis? The same religion that persecutes sects of their own kind. The same religion that promotes racism. The same religion that has hindered the productivity and technological advancements.

I will announce that I’m a Christian. I am not ashamed of it. It’s not a source of pride anymore than being an American citizen, being white, growing up just above poverty. Religion is a culture, a part of peoples upbringing, for some it’s a race. Why would someone being proud of being a Christian be any different than being proud of their culture? Religion doesn’t promote racism, people do. I’ve never seen it written where Jesus or God says, hate all black people or hate all white people. People will twist things around to make it say what they want it to say.

All in all, I accept people for what they are. But if they don’t believe that I have a coin in my closed fist even after opening it, its pretty damn pathetic.

Many people feel this way about Atheists. There are so many things people attribute to God that they thinks it’s pathetic if you refuse to see it. To some the proof is everywhere.

The hardcore creationist will be the first one to deny a theory supported by ample proof and references and axioms. Even the utmost truths and mathematical theorems have an uncertainty to them. (See GÃ?¶del’s incompleteness theorems). But the real question is “Will anything change the mind of a believer”?[/quote]

You won’t be able to change the mind of a true believer because so much of their beliefs are FAITH.

47

[quote]Spartiates wrote:
Badunk wrote:
If Jesus was going around Palestine with hordes of people following him everywhere, if he was performing miracles all over the place, if he was making the dead rise, curing the sick, making the blind see and then declaring himself to be the son of god, how come there’s not one single contemporary account of his life? I mean, it’s not like the Romans didn’t keep records about the places they ruled. You’d think such events would’ve been noticed by at least SOMEONE with a bit of papyrus handy…

Shhhh, you’ll upset someone with facts…[/quote]

The bible is made up of many different books/accounts of Jesus’ life. There are many more accounts that were written but never put into the bible for one reason or another. What would you consider a contemporary account? Even if it was written down by 1000 people would you believe it? I don’t think you would. Would you believe it if you saw it with your own eyes? Or would you just think it’s a trick? The blind man was faking, the guy wasn’t really dead… We have pictures, written accounts, witnesses of the holocaust yet people are already starting to believe it never happened. How much longer before slavery becomes just a myth? It never happened, there would be written accounts of it somewhere. Those history books are just lying to us. What proof would you need to believe? Honest question. I’m not trying to convert or change minds, but is there anything that would make an Atheist believe? Does it take Rapture to make them believe?

48

[quote]kylec72 wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
kylec72 wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
This is interesting to me, I live my life as if there is a god, whether there is one or not is yet to be proven. But if I didn’t believe in eternal happiness/damnation I would be a very scary individual. My belief is what stops me from doing many things. I don’t fear our prison system or other people, but hell on the other hand. With an imagination like mine, that is a place to fear.

God is not synonymous with morality, or rather morality is not limited to theism.

I understand this and did not mean to imply that without religion there is no morality. I’m trying to say if there are no consequences for your actions then we can do whatever we want. To me jail or prison isn’t a punishment I’m afraid of. If it’s enough to deter others thats great, I just don’t see it as something to fear.

Our moral conscious ultimately decides what is right or wrong, yet why must one need a moral authority in order to do good? Murder is murder regardless of in light of a god or not. The person dies equally in either situation. Why does a world without a god make murder any less reprehensible or a more attractive action? [/quote]

I agree with most of what you said. Murder would not be any less reprehensible than it is now, but it wouldn’t be something you fear doing. I don’t know how to explain it. Without ultimate punishment it’s not something you would be worried about. For some the thought of hell stops them. Others don’t believe or don’t believe what they’re doing is wrong. I guess it’s a risk/reward scenario. To me the reward of being right isn’t worth the risk of being wrong.

49

[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
kylec72 wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
kylec72 wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
This is interesting to me, I live my life as if there is a god, whether there is one or not is yet to be proven. But if I didn’t believe in eternal happiness/damnation I would be a very scary individual. My belief is what stops me from doing many things. I don’t fear our prison system or other people, but hell on the other hand. With an imagination like mine, that is a place to fear.

God is not synonymous with morality, or rather morality is not limited to theism.

I understand this and did not mean to imply that without religion there is no morality. I’m trying to say if there are no consequences for your actions then we can do whatever we want. To me jail or prison isn’t a punishment I’m afraid of. If it’s enough to deter others thats great, I just don’t see it as something to fear.

Our moral conscious ultimately decides what is right or wrong, yet why must one need a moral authority in order to do good? Murder is murder regardless of in light of a god or not. The person dies equally in either situation. Why does a world without a god make murder any less reprehensible or a more attractive action?

I agree with most of what you said. Murder would not be any less reprehensible than it is now, but it wouldn’t be something you fear doing. I don’t know how to explain it. Without ultimate punishment it’s not something you would be worried about. For some the thought of hell stops them. Others don’t believe or don’t believe what they’re doing is wrong. I guess it’s a risk/reward scenario. To me the reward of being right isn’t worth the risk of being wrong. [/quote]

I think they key thing you said was “Others don’t believe or don’t believe what they’re doing is wrong.” With all the religious crusades that have happened throughout the years in history (including recently by terrorists) in the name of GOD. They believe that god wants them to kill these people for not believing they do. Or they believe that god will reward them in the afterlife for doing so. They are so many reasons these people believe. To them, “murder” is not what I would assume ALL of us believe “murder” is.

I find it very ironic when people believe that you must be religious to have any set of morals when religious individuals are just as responsible for murders in history as atheists/agnostics.

50

[quote]Mr Anderson wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
kylec72 wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
kylec72 wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
This is interesting to me, I live my life as if there is a god, whether there is one or not is yet to be proven. But if I didn’t believe in eternal happiness/damnation I would be a very scary individual. My belief is what stops me from doing many things. I don’t fear our prison system or other people, but hell on the other hand. With an imagination like mine, that is a place to fear.

God is not synonymous with morality, or rather morality is not limited to theism.

I understand this and did not mean to imply that without religion there is no morality. I’m trying to say if there are no consequences for your actions then we can do whatever we want. To me jail or prison isn’t a punishment I’m afraid of. If it’s enough to deter others thats great, I just don’t see it as something to fear.

Our moral conscious ultimately decides what is right or wrong, yet why must one need a moral authority in order to do good? Murder is murder regardless of in light of a god or not. The person dies equally in either situation. Why does a world without a god make murder any less reprehensible or a more attractive action?

I agree with most of what you said. Murder would not be any less reprehensible than it is now, but it wouldn’t be something you fear doing. I don’t know how to explain it. Without ultimate punishment it’s not something you would be worried about. For some the thought of hell stops them. Others don’t believe or don’t believe what they’re doing is wrong. I guess it’s a risk/reward scenario. To me the reward of being right isn’t worth the risk of being wrong.

I think they key thing you said was “Others don’t believe or don’t believe what they’re doing is wrong.” With all the religious crusades that have happened throughout the years in history (including recently by terrorists) in the name of GOD. They believe that god wants them to kill these people for not believing they do. Or they believe that god will reward them in the afterlife for doing so. They are so many reasons these people believe. To them, “murder” is not what I would assume ALL of us believe “murder” is.

I find it very ironic when people believe that you must be religious to have any set of morals when religious individuals are just as responsible for murders in history as atheists/agnostics. [/quote]

I didn’t mean to imply that you needed religion to have morals. Religious people don’t have the corner stone on that market by any means. What you wrote goes back to what I was saying in an earlier post. People will interpret their religions in whatever way suites them best. If they want to kill people, they will find what ever they can and take it completely out of context just to give meaning to what they are doing. Sorry if what I wrote didn’t come out very clear. Religion doesn’t make any person better than any other person, just as I don’t think lack or religion makes any person smarter than any other person.

51

[quote]

I didn’t mean to imply that you needed religion to have morals. Religious people don’t have the corner stone on that market by any means. What you wrote goes back to what I was saying in an earlier post. People will interpret their religions in whatever way suites them best. If they want to kill people, they will find what ever they can and take it completely out of context just to give meaning to what they are doing. Sorry if what I wrote didn’t come out very clear. Religion doesn’t make any person better than any other person, just as I don’t think lack or religion makes any person smarter than any other person. [/quote]

Agreed 100%

52

The Bible as it is now was put together many many years after Jesus’ death, where they chose a few select Gospels and discarded the rest.

I will go ahead and claim that religion has no claim on morals whatsoever, because an atheist has an easy enough time being moral.

53

[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
Spartiates wrote:
Badunk wrote:
If Jesus was going around Palestine with hordes of people following him everywhere, if he was performing miracles all over the place, if he was making the dead rise, curing the sick, making the blind see and then declaring himself to be the son of god, how come there’s not one single contemporary account of his life? I mean, it’s not like the Romans didn’t keep records about the places they ruled. You’d think such events would’ve been noticed by at least SOMEONE with a bit of papyrus handy…

Shhhh, you’ll upset someone with facts…

The bible is made up of many different books/accounts of Jesus’ life. There are many more accounts that were written but never put into the bible for one reason or another. What would you consider a contemporary account? Even if it was written down by 1000 people would you believe it? I don’t think you would. Would you believe it if you saw it with your own eyes? Or would you just think it’s a trick? The blind man was faking, the guy wasn’t really dead… We have pictures, written accounts, witnesses of the holocaust yet people are already starting to believe it never happened. How much longer before slavery becomes just a myth? It never happened, there would be written accounts of it somewhere. Those history books are just lying to us. What proof would you need to believe? Honest question. I’m not trying to convert or change minds, but is there anything that would make an Atheist believe? Does it take Rapture to make them believe?[/quote]

I’m a history graduate. Of course if 1000 people at the time of Jesus wrote about the things he did I’d believe it. Hundreds of people wrote about the French Revolution at the time, which is where we get our understanding of that era from. Fact is, the earliest writings about Jesus happened at least 70 years after his supposed death.

And, as far as the holocaust is concerned, only ultra-right wing nazi-types believe that it didn’t happen TO THE EXTENT THAT IT HAS BEEN REPORTED. There aren’t holocaust deniers. There are “6 million Jews didn’t die because they’d have had to have killed 3300 of them a day every day” deniers.

From what I understand anyway. I might be wrong and will stand corrected if someone shows me otherwise.

54

PS- the reason why atheists don’t go around killing, raping and generally not giving a fuck about their fellow man, is something called empathy. I don’t do those things because I don’t want them to happen to me. If we lived in a society where you could be killed by anyone for anything at any time, we wouldn’t have a society.

The reason why we have laws, the reason why we punish crime, is because we desire to live in a world where such things don’t happen very often and, when they do, the perpetrators get punished.

Look at the history of America- you had the Wild West. Lawlessness. Robbers and murderers acting upon their own base desires. What happened? The people who suffered- the average citizens, formed local governments, created police forces, co-operated with other like-minded communities and generally banded together to force these criminal elements to become outlaws.

Wanted posters went up, telegrams were sent, despatch riders and newspapers told people the latest news. The people who could once act with impunity against isolated towns and individuals now had to run and hide because they feared for their lives. THAT’S why we don’t go round killing each other for the heck of it. The consequences of our actions are dealt with in this world, not some made up afterlife.

55

[quote]Badunk wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
Spartiates wrote:
Badunk wrote:
If Jesus was going around Palestine with hordes of people following him everywhere, if he was performing miracles all over the place, if he was making the dead rise, curing the sick, making the blind see and then declaring himself to be the son of god, how come there’s not one single contemporary account of his life? I mean, it’s not like the Romans didn’t keep records about the places they ruled. You’d think such events would’ve been noticed by at least SOMEONE with a bit of papyrus handy…

Shhhh, you’ll upset someone with facts…

The bible is made up of many different books/accounts of Jesus’ life. There are many more accounts that were written but never put into the bible for one reason or another. What would you consider a contemporary account? Even if it was written down by 1000 people would you believe it? I don’t think you would. Would you believe it if you saw it with your own eyes? Or would you just think it’s a trick? The blind man was faking, the guy wasn’t really dead… We have pictures, written accounts, witnesses of the holocaust yet people are already starting to believe it never happened. How much longer before slavery becomes just a myth? It never happened, there would be written accounts of it somewhere. Those history books are just lying to us. What proof would you need to believe? Honest question. I’m not trying to convert or change minds, but is there anything that would make an Atheist believe? Does it take Rapture to make them believe?

I’m a history graduate. Of course if 1000 people at the time of Jesus wrote about the things he did I’d believe it. Hundreds of people wrote about the French Revolution at the time, which is where we get our understanding of that era from. Fact is, the earliest writings about Jesus happened at least 70 years after his supposed death.

And, as far as the holocaust is concerned, only ultra-right wing nazi-types believe that it didn’t happen TO THE EXTENT THAT IT HAS BEEN REPORTED. There aren’t holocaust deniers. There are “6 million Jews didn’t die because they’d have had to have killed 3300 of them a day every day” deniers.

From what I understand anyway. I might be wrong and will stand corrected if someone shows me otherwise. [/quote]

The earliest published writings came 70 years after his death. Where did they get their stories? From other peoples accounts? The fact is we don’t know how many people wrote about it or what happened to the parchment that it was written on. Do you know where every piece of paper is that you’ve ever written on? Of course you don’t, things get thrown away, burned, misplaced, or someone just didn’t want it or think it necessary to keep. The fact that there is written documentation that has lasted 2000 years should say something. Creating the bible 1900 years ago isn’t the same as it is today. That much time and effort involved should speak loudly for itself. What more documentation do you need to see?

As far as the holocaust comparison I think it fits quite well. Hardcore Atheist say Jesus never lived, god doesn’t exist, religion is a load of crap. Why? Because Jesus couldn’t have done those things, God wouldn’t let bad things happen. Once people realize that it’s impossible for people to understand Gods plan, there will be more acceptance. We can’t understand omniscience.

56

[quote]Badunk wrote:
PS- the reason why atheists don’t go around killing, raping and generally not giving a fuck about their fellow man, is something called empathy. I don’t do those things because I don’t want them to happen to me. If we lived in a society where you could be killed by anyone for anything at any time, we wouldn’t have a society.

The reason why we have laws, the reason why we punish crime, is because we desire to live in a world where such things don’t happen very often and, when they do, the perpetrators get punished.

Look at the history of America- you had the Wild West. Lawlessness. Robbers and murderers acting upon their own base desires. What happened? The people who suffered- the average citizens, formed local governments, created police forces, co-operated with other like-minded communities and generally banded together to force these criminal elements to become outlaws.

Wanted posters went up, telegrams were sent, despatch riders and newspapers told people the latest news. The people who could once act with impunity against isolated towns and individuals now had to run and hide because they feared for their lives. THAT’S why we don’t go round killing each other for the heck of it. The consequences of our actions are dealt with in this world, not some made up afterlife.[/quote]

The wild west actually had less lawlessness then we do today. More people were apt to defend themselves. Today we get punished just as badly as the criminals if we defend ourselves. Today we live in a society where anyone could be killed for any reason at any time. What’s going to happen to the criminal? They are going to go to prison for how long? While there they get healthcare, TV, schooling, three meals a day, showers, a place to sleep and stay warm. I would rather be there than homeless on the street. Prison isn’t the scary place it used to be. Yeah, it’s not nice and you have to deal with a lot of shit, but I think I would rather spend life there than eternity in hell.

57

Now, which side turned this post into a religious debate? Anyways, heck of a find.

58

Waiting for pushharder to show and the train wreck that will follow.

59

[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
Badunk wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
Spartiates wrote:
Badunk wrote:
If Jesus was going around Palestine with hordes of people following him everywhere, if he was performing miracles all over the place, if he was making the dead rise, curing the sick, making the blind see and then declaring himself to be the son of god, how come there’s not one single contemporary account of his life? I mean, it’s not like the Romans didn’t keep records about the places they ruled. You’d think such events would’ve been noticed by at least SOMEONE with a bit of papyrus handy…

Shhhh, you’ll upset someone with facts…

The bible is made up of many different books/accounts of Jesus’ life. There are many more accounts that were written but never put into the bible for one reason or another. What would you consider a contemporary account? Even if it was written down by 1000 people would you believe it? I don’t think you would. Would you believe it if you saw it with your own eyes? Or would you just think it’s a trick? The blind man was faking, the guy wasn’t really dead… We have pictures, written accounts, witnesses of the holocaust yet people are already starting to believe it never happened. How much longer before slavery becomes just a myth? It never happened, there would be written accounts of it somewhere. Those history books are just lying to us. What proof would you need to believe? Honest question. I’m not trying to convert or change minds, but is there anything that would make an Atheist believe? Does it take Rapture to make them believe?

I’m a history graduate. Of course if 1000 people at the time of Jesus wrote about the things he did I’d believe it. Hundreds of people wrote about the French Revolution at the time, which is where we get our understanding of that era from. Fact is, the earliest writings about Jesus happened at least 70 years after his supposed death.

And, as far as the holocaust is concerned, only ultra-right wing nazi-types believe that it didn’t happen TO THE EXTENT THAT IT HAS BEEN REPORTED. There aren’t holocaust deniers. There are “6 million Jews didn’t die because they’d have had to have killed 3300 of them a day every day” deniers.

From what I understand anyway. I might be wrong and will stand corrected if someone shows me otherwise.

The earliest published writings came 70 years after his death. Where did they get their stories? From other peoples accounts? The fact is we don’t know how many people wrote about it or what happened to the parchment that it was written on. Do you know where every piece of paper is that you’ve ever written on? Of course you don’t, things get thrown away, burned, misplaced, or someone just didn’t want it or think it necessary to keep. The fact that there is written documentation that has lasted 2000 years should say something. Creating the bible 1900 years ago isn’t the same as it is today. That much time and effort involved should speak loudly for itself. What more documentation do you need to see?

As far as the holocaust comparison I think it fits quite well. Hardcore Atheist say Jesus never lived, god doesn’t exist, religion is a load of crap. Why? Because Jesus couldn’t have done those things, God wouldn’t let bad things happen. Once people realize that it’s impossible for people to understand Gods plan, there will be more acceptance. We can’t understand omniscience. [/quote]

Primary sources vs secondary sources. The former is usually worth more than the latter, in terms of accuracy.

As I said, the Romans kept records of their time in Palestine. Not one official document, not one wax tablet, not one piece of grafitti, not one song, not one cartoon…not even someone saying: “I heard about that Jesus fella, but I think it’s a load of crap.” Nobody wrote about this guy going around Palestine with thousands of people following him, performing miracles.

“We can’t understand omniscience” = God of the Gaps.

Atheists don’t believe in God because there’s no proof and the description God has so many holes in it.

Day 1- God creates darkness and light.
Day 4- God creates the stars.

How was there light on Day One when there were no stars?
Theist: “God can do anything. You don’t understand because you’re not God.”

And as far as the statement: “We can’t understand omniscience” goes, Christianity involves going to church and listening to a pastor/priest/minister telling you what God meant when he said…

60

[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
Spartiates wrote:
Badunk wrote:

The bible is made up of many different books/accounts of Jesus’ life. There are many more accounts that were written but never put into the bible for one reason or another. What would you consider a contemporary account? Even if it was written down by 1000 people would you believe it? I don’t think you would. Would you believe it if you saw it with your own eyes? Or would you just think it’s a trick? The blind man was faking, the guy wasn’t really dead… We have pictures, written accounts, witnesses of the holocaust yet people are already starting to believe it never happened. How much longer before slavery becomes just a myth? It never happened, there would be written accounts of it somewhere. Those history books are just lying to us. What proof would you need to believe? Honest question. I’m not trying to convert or change minds, but is there anything that would make an Atheist believe? Does it take Rapture to make them believe?[/quote]

Ah the irony.