OK, Let's Lift! And 1 and 2 and 1 and 2

Hey flip, scanned through your log a bit and had a couple questions for you about how you train and would also like to ask for your opinion/advice for some things im doing but I’ll do that on a later post.

To me, it looks like you basically work up to a low rep “max” (or at least a close to max for that day) for a main movement and then do a few back off sets that are higher reps but not to failure. Am I reading that right, or are those just the sessions you feel are important enough to log?

The other lifts you do for the day like dips, shoulders, biceps and tri’s and stuff, are they usually same weight, straight sets higher reps avoiding failure for a pump? No real attempt to do more weight, just wanting the volume? Or are you trying to set rep PR’s or volume PR’s or anything?

I’m mainly curious to hear in your own words what you’re basic plan is in the gym if you have the time to explain it.

[quote]staystrong wrote:
Hey flip, scanned through your log a bit and had a couple questions for you about how you train and would also like to ask for your opinion/advice for some things im doing but I’ll do that on a later post.

To me, it looks like you basically work up to a low rep “max” (or at least a close to max for that day) for a main movement and then do a few back off sets that are higher reps but not to failure. Am I reading that right, or are those just the sessions you feel are important enough to log?

The other lifts you do for the day like dips, shoulders, biceps and tri’s and stuff, are they usually same weight, straight sets higher reps avoiding failure for a pump? No real attempt to do more weight, just wanting the volume? Or are you trying to set rep PR’s or volume PR’s or anything?

I’m mainly curious to hear in your own words what you’re basic plan is in the gym if you have the time to explain it.[/quote]

That’s accurate. I’ve tried to log most of my sessions over the last year or so, and that’s how they mostly go. Sometimes I’ll do other things, like challenge sets of some sort, but that’s pretty much it. The concept is basically a VERY loose version of 5/3/1 with the boring but big accessory plan. My exercise selections are basically drawn from that, as far as my main and accessory movements go. The only thing I leave out is abs. I do zero ab work. I also go by feel quite a bit.

I’ll give you an example. I went in to do squats the other day, and I knew I was going to work up to 405. I did not know if I was going to do 1 set for max reps, or a few sets for less reps. I did my first 2 sets at 3 reps, because I was feeling tight, but my 3rd set, I felt looser and got more reps. Then I was fairly fatigued, and backed down to 3 reps again. This was a decent amount of volume, so instead of doing 4 or 5 back off sets, I just opted for 2 sets at a moderately high weight. If I just work up to, say, a max single, I’ll generally get more sets/reps in at a lower weight afterwards, because I’m not so fatigued.

You’re also correct about accessory movements like curls, dips, etc. The weights I choose are challenging, but they’re never done to failure, and they’re mostly in the 10+ rep range. I can’t even guess what my 5 rep max on curls would be. No clue. It’s not important. I focus on pump when I do these things, and I vary my tempo from session to session. I just do these things for additional volume. Accessory movements for someone focused on strength are simply there to help build strength in main movements. Accessories are also meant almost solely for hypertrophy purposes. If I took a turn towards bodybuilding, I’d likely pay more attention to the details of accesories, and do more of them.

You’re welcome to ask more. That’s my basic approach. The key, in my mind, is applying intensity as much as possible, to workouts, specifically the main lifts. This has mattered much more to me than any particular program. If you truly bust your ass in the gym, and you make good exercise selections, you will improve.

bench last night. Good times.

Hit 295x2, 315x5, then 225 for a couple sets of 10, 205 for 8ish, 185 for 6 or 7, wide grip pull ups for sets of 10, dips for 12-15 reps, 2 sets, and cable biceps curls. short session, got all that done in less than 45 minutes. Had house guests, so time was limited.

Thanks for the detailed response flip. One thing that I really struggle to “get” is the idea that for a lot of people, lifts for shoulder/biceps/tris and such aren’t taken to failure ever and they don’t try to set PR’s in volume or weight or reps. I’ve always thought of it as you have to try to progress some how to get stronger or bigger. So if say you never try to add weight to bicep curls, you’re biceps (in my view) wouldn’t really get bigger or stronger.

Do you think you could you try to explain that at all? In my eyes, if I went in and did 4x10 with 20 lbs for lateral raises every week for months, nothing would happen. Maybe I’m horrible at wording what I’m asking so let me know if it’s not clear what I’m trying to get at.

As for asking for your opinion on what I’m doing now:

I can’t use a barbell for really any lift outside of front squats thanks to some injuries and surgeries. Which means for things like chest, I only can use dumbbells. As you probably know, with dumbbells it’s pretty hard to do anything low reps for benching or ohp.

What I’ve been doing is something loosely resembling Lyle McDonalds generic bulking routine where every lift is done reverse pyramid style close to failure every set. Chest, back, legs usually 2 exercises 3 sets each; accessory lifts 1 exercise 2-3 sets slightly higher reps, all sets basically to failure. Push/Pull/Legs/Push/Pull so usually 4-5 exercises a day.

Basically every set outside of warm ups are taken to failure or just before for every bodypart with a weight I’ll fail in the 8-12 or 12-15 range, lightening the weight every set.

I’m starting to wonder if it’s a not so great idea to take every set close to failure, looking around it doesn’t seem like many people do that especially for things like arms and shoulders. I’d like to do something similar to 5/3/1 and what you do where I work up to a heavy set then back off but I’m not sure how to do that with dumbbells. I could do it easily enough for chin ups and front squats, but not pressing movements.

From what i’ve outlined above is there anything that jumps out at you as something to change? Too many sets to failure? Not enough overall volume?

Do you have any insight as to how to set up something similar to what you’re doing but with dumbbells for pressing movements? Would you still work up to a max set of higher reps then drop the weight and do back off sets?

[quote]staystrong wrote:
Thanks for the detailed response flip. One thing that I really struggle to “get” is the idea that for a lot of people, lifts for shoulder/biceps/tris and such aren’t taken to failure ever and they don’t try to set PR’s in volume or weight or reps. I’ve always thought of it as you have to try to progress some how to get stronger or bigger. So if say you never try to add weight to bicep curls, you’re biceps (in my view) wouldn’t really get bigger or stronger.

Do you think you could you try to explain that at all? In my eyes, if I went in and did 4x10 with 20 lbs for lateral raises every week for months, nothing would happen. Maybe I’m horrible at wording what I’m asking so let me know if it’s not clear what I’m trying to get at.[/quote]

I’ve gained the capacity to perform these accessories with heavier weights/more reps. So it’s not as if I’m not getting stronger at them. I do lateral raises with 30’s and 35’s for sets of 10+. Obviously I haven’t always been able to do that. The thing about high rep work in general, though, and most hypertrophy-oriented training, is that sets to failure are not required. Sets to some level of fatigue is important, but not absolute failure. Plus, I don’t always use completely strict form, or full range of motion on all accessory movements, so true failure is something of a nebulous term anyway. Like, on lateral raises, sometimes as I fatigue in a set, I’ll keep going, and just not raise my arms as high on the last few reps.

Basically, what I do on almost every accessory movement, is I’ll pick a weight that I’ll definitely get more than 5 reps for as many sets as I would want to do, and I’ll just see how long it takes for the muscle to really start to fatigue. It may be 6 or 7 reps, it may take 25 reps, depending on the weight I happened to pick that day. All I’m trying to do is get to the point where the muscle feels tired, and it would be difficult to continue doing full range of motion reps. Then I’ll rest, for a relatively short period of time, and then chase the same feeling. I may get the same number of reps, I may fall short. It’s not a particularly important factor, as long as I reach a similar fatigued state.

So yea, overtime, there is evidence of progress, with arm development, load, and reps. It just doesn’t make sense to chase PR’s when you incorporate short rest periods, partial reps, and you don’t go to true failure.

Hope that makes sense! This is, of course, just 1 approach to training. Nothing is universal.

[quote]staystrong wrote:
As for asking for your opinion on what I’m doing now:

I can’t use a barbell for really any lift outside of front squats thanks to some injuries and surgeries. Which means for things like chest, I only can use dumbbells. As you probably know, with dumbbells it’s pretty hard to do anything low reps for benching or ohp.

What I’ve been doing is something loosely resembling Lyle McDonalds generic bulking routine where every lift is done reverse pyramid style close to failure every set. Chest, back, legs usually 2 exercises 3 sets each; accessory lifts 1 exercise 2-3 sets slightly higher reps, all sets basically to failure. Push/Pull/Legs/Push/Pull so usually 4-5 exercises a day.

Basically every set outside of warm ups are taken to failure or just before for every bodypart with a weight I’ll fail in the 8-12 or 12-15 range, lightening the weight every set.

I’m starting to wonder if it’s a not so great idea to take every set close to failure, looking around it doesn’t seem like many people do that especially for things like arms and shoulders. I’d like to do something similar to 5/3/1 and what you do where I work up to a heavy set then back off but I’m not sure how to do that with dumbbells. I could do it easily enough for chin ups and front squats, but not pressing movements.

From what i’ve outlined above is there anything that jumps out at you as something to change? Too many sets to failure? Not enough overall volume?

Do you have any insight as to how to set up something similar to what you’re doing but with dumbbells for pressing movements? Would you still work up to a max set of higher reps then drop the weight and do back off sets?[/quote]

My last response hits on some of this, but I’ll go through some of your questions here.

First, I’m curious as to what sort of injuries you have that prevent you from using a barbell, and what you’re doing to rectify the situation. Are you currently rehabbing these injuries, or are they things you’re just willing to live with? Have you had surgeries?

For myself, I actually believe dumbbells are more likely to lead to injuries than barbells are. It’s the main reason I train so infrequently with dumbbells. I NEVER do OHP or bench press with dumbbells anymore, because it’s so easy to hurt myself doing them. Barbells are more stable, and getting barbells into position is much easier. I certainly would NOT do low rep dumbbell pressing, ever. If I can’t handle the dumbbells for at least 10 reps, I shouldn’t be pressing them. Too much risk.

On another note, what are your goals? Are they simply to get bigger and stronger over time, or is there something in particular you want to emphasize? Your programming should be based on your specific training goals.

You can make a lot of progress with just dumbbells, if that’s all you can use. sets of 10 reps are a proven method to gaining strength and size.

I don’t have a problem with APPROACHING failure on accessory movements, as I mentioned in my last post. And if your training frequency is on the low end, you could probably get away with hitting failure on a lot of lifts regularly. I think high frequency and lots of lifting to failure, when combined, are a bad idea.

At the end of the day, though, you need to make decisions based on what does and does not work for you in the real world. You need to train in a way that mentally suits you, so that you can apply a high level of intensity every time you train. I hit heavy singles more regularly than most people I know, because I enjoy it, and it seems to work well enough for me. Some people NEVER hit heavy singles in training, and they have plenty of success as well. You have to be open to some level of experimenting, while at the same time sticking to the most basic principles of lifting that you find in all good programs. The most fundamental, pervasive principle is hard work, and it is closely followed by frequent, consistent work. If you work hard, regularly, and over a long period of time, you will almost certainly succeed.

That helps clear up some of the confusion with accessory movements, thanks! It still feels a little foreign to me but makes sense. Seems to come down to working hard at to get to a fatigued state for a few sets, and if you work hard it’ll progress over time but whether you add 5 lbs to the lift that day or another rep isn’t that important. Some days it’ll take less reps to reach fatigue maybe due to shorter rests or stricter form and some days it’ll take more. Less weight that day doesn’t mean you’re not progressing necessarily.

One problem I have is when I hear you and others explain it, I visualize that you guys are leaving reps in the tank and not really “pushing” yourselves as hard as you can on the accessory or back off sets, especially early sets (I’m not saying you’re not working hard just trying to explain what comes to mind lol). Like I always visualize you guys were curling or doing a back off set for bench, you’re doing reps and then you start to get tired and stop but if you had wanted you could have busted out 3 or 4 more reps. Then take a short break and bang out another set, maybe this time you have 1-2 reps left in you when you stop maybe you have 3-4 again.

Is that what you mean when you say you get to a fatigued state then stop? I think the answer is no from what you’ve said here, it sounds like you could maybe do another 1 or 2 reps but not necessarily 3 or 4 but I just wanted to make sure. I ALWAYS think that way and it just seems off to me, like you need to push yourself closer to failure to really get results.


As for myself, my goals are just to get bigger and stronger over time. I’d LOVE to be able to go back to the barbell for benching, ohp, rows, and back squats. I miss those lifts and was able to build some decent strength pretty quickly with them. My not doing them is because of a wrist surgery 4 years ago and a hip surgery 3 years ago. The wrist tendon ripped out of it’s sheath, had to make a new sheath for it. It’s an extensor tendon on my pinky side if that means anything to you, idk your anatomy knowledge haha. Excessive pronation and lifts that put my wrist into deeper pronation cause pain. Hip involved removing torn cartilage and shaving a bone down, so I’m missing some cartilage. Rehabs over at this point. If you were terribly curious I could give more details but not really necessary to clutter up your thread more than I have lol. I’ve tried multiple times to put these lifts back in but after a few weeks my wrist will start aching. High reps, low reps, all cause the pain. I did recently discover i can do front squats if I were olympic shoes though! Turns out hip hinging and having a narrow angle at the hip joint (back squats, deadlifts, RDL’s) cause pain but sitting more upright (front squats) makes it doable.

I believe the wrist pain is due to the barbell putting my wrist into a very pronated position and then the weight causing my wrist to bend backwards some (even with good form it seems like the wrist has to bend backward some to hold the barbell). This puts a lot of stress at the pinky side of the wrist which just so happens to be where my surgery was. I think mainly its the high degree of pronation that causes the issue because things like shurgs and rows hurt too. At this point, unless I discover a way to reduce strain on that part of my wrist or until I am able to get a home gym and purchase a football/swiss bar for more neutral hand placement it seems like barbells put too much strain on my wrist. The home gym thing is still 4+ years away though.

I agree with your points about dumbbells. I think it’s easier to get hurt, harder to increase weight and it’s not something to be done lower reps. I just can’t find a way to put barbell work back in and I’ve been trying to figure out how to approach training with dumbbells being the primary lift. There isn’t a lot out there on this so I feel like I’m making it up as I go, but I like trying to pick guys brains who I think would have some good insight into how they would do this if they were forced too.

Do you use wrist wraps for pressing movements? And if you are wrapping them, are you sure you do it right? I wrap my wrists for any bench pressing over 135. Sometimes I even wrap for that if I’m dealing with pain.

How are dips for you?

Based on your injury, I’m VERY surprised that dumbbell pressing is something you can do. But I’ll take your word for it I suppose.

That’s also good to hear on the squats.

As for the accessory work… I think you mostly got it right. As to your question on whether I leave 3-4 reps in the tank, or 1-2… I have no idea. It probably varies a great deal. I seriously put very little thought into this. I don’t pay much attention to it, other than adding training volume to my workout. Work is work. And I think I mentioned that I even skip accessory work relatively regularly. Just yesterday all I did was dips and pullups.

I own a pair of Inzer wrist wraps I bought right after my surgery but I never tried using them. Stigma of “you’ll have weak wrists” and my thought that if it hurt without wraps, it probably wasn’t good long term to wear a “band-aid” just to bench when I have no goals to be a powerlifter. You and some other stronger guys saying they use them for a lot of their sets has me rethinking my approach.

I’ll give the wrist wraps a shot over the next few weeks and see if my wrist feels bothered. Thanks for the reminder/info! Also found out i may be gripping the bar wrong too (gripping it too high in the palm) so will change that and see if it puts less pressure on the wrist.

Dips I think are fine, I’ve just recently tried to do a few sets for the first time in a long time. They feel a little awkward as a movement but don’t bother the wrist it seems. May hold off on trying to consistently put them in until I see how benching effects my wrist first.

I’m surprised db’s work too, only logical reason I have is I can do them more neutral grip so less pronation. Farther from its end range of motion, just a hunch though.

At any rate, I appreciate you taking time to respond. Especially since my last post was extremely wordy.

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Do you use wrist wraps for pressing movements? And if you are wrapping them, are you sure you do it right? I wrap my wrists for any bench pressing over 135. Sometimes I even wrap for that if I’m dealing with pain. [/quote]
I didn’t know you did that.

Why did you start doing that? Also, what’s the “right” way to wrap them?

[quote]staystrong wrote:
I own a pair of Inzer wrist wraps I bought right after my surgery but I never tried using them. Stigma of “you’ll have weak wrists” and my thought that if it hurt without wraps, it probably wasn’t good long term to wear a “band-aid” just to bench when I have no goals to be a powerlifter. You and some other stronger guys saying they use them for a lot of their sets has me rethinking my approach.

I’ll give the wrist wraps a shot over the next few weeks and see if my wrist feels bothered. Thanks for the reminder/info! Also found out i may be gripping the bar wrong too (gripping it too high in the palm) so will change that and see if it puts less pressure on the wrist.

Dips I think are fine, I’ve just recently tried to do a few sets for the first time in a long time. They feel a little awkward as a movement but don’t bother the wrist it seems. May hold off on trying to consistently put them in until I see how benching effects my wrist first.

I’m surprised db’s work too, only logical reason I have is I can do them more neutral grip so less pronation. Farther from its end range of motion, just a hunch though.

At any rate, I appreciate you taking time to respond. Especially since my last post was extremely wordy.[/quote]

OMG man, USE THEM!!! wrist wraps aren’t a crutch. Bench pressing isn’t a ‘natural’ movement to begin with, so there’s no reason a human ‘should’ be able to bench press heavy weights without them. It’s nothing but a tool to make you stronger. My wrists are so much healthier because of them. One of the best tools in my gym bag, by far. It gives you so much support.

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Do you use wrist wraps for pressing movements? And if you are wrapping them, are you sure you do it right? I wrap my wrists for any bench pressing over 135. Sometimes I even wrap for that if I’m dealing with pain. [/quote]
I didn’t know you did that.

Why did you start doing that? Also, what’s the “right” way to wrap them?[/quote]

I started because I was having a ton of wrist pain. It was mostly from doing a lot of overhead pressing and cleans. It took it’s toll on me, as I wasn’t catching the bar appropriately. I believe that was over a year ago… It’s been long enough that I don’t remember exactly when I got them. I’d have to look at some old videos and see if I was wearing them.

They have to be close enough to your hands to work as a true support. If you wear them too far up, they won’t do anything but cut off circulation. It’s not hard to do right, but I’ve seen weird things before…

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Do you use wrist wraps for pressing movements? And if you are wrapping them, are you sure you do it right? I wrap my wrists for any bench pressing over 135. Sometimes I even wrap for that if I’m dealing with pain. [/quote]
I didn’t know you did that.

Why did you start doing that? Also, what’s the “right” way to wrap them?[/quote]

I started because I was having a ton of wrist pain. It was mostly from doing a lot of overhead pressing and cleans. It took it’s toll on me, as I wasn’t catching the bar appropriately. I believe that was over a year ago… It’s been long enough that I don’t remember exactly when I got them. I’d have to look at some old videos and see if I was wearing them.

They have to be close enough to your hands to work as a true support. If you wear them too far up, they won’t do anything but cut off circulation. It’s not hard to do right, but I’ve seen weird things before…[/quote]
Ah, I see. I bought a pair because of wrist pain too, and it turned out they helped with elbow pain too. I hadn’t realized the two were associated at the time; wrists bent back too far stressed the elbows.

I guess I just thought it was interesting, since we both have relatively smaller wrists, that you’d run into wrist pain during pressing too.

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Do you use wrist wraps for pressing movements? And if you are wrapping them, are you sure you do it right? I wrap my wrists for any bench pressing over 135. Sometimes I even wrap for that if I’m dealing with pain. [/quote]
I didn’t know you did that.

Why did you start doing that? Also, what’s the “right” way to wrap them?[/quote]

I started because I was having a ton of wrist pain. It was mostly from doing a lot of overhead pressing and cleans. It took it’s toll on me, as I wasn’t catching the bar appropriately. I believe that was over a year ago… It’s been long enough that I don’t remember exactly when I got them. I’d have to look at some old videos and see if I was wearing them.

They have to be close enough to your hands to work as a true support. If you wear them too far up, they won’t do anything but cut off circulation. It’s not hard to do right, but I’ve seen weird things before…[/quote]
Ah, I see. I bought a pair because of wrist pain too, and it turned out they helped with elbow pain too. I hadn’t realized the two were associated at the time; wrists bent back too far stressed the elbows.

I guess I just thought it was interesting, since we both have relatively smaller wrists, that you’d run into wrist pain during pressing too.[/quote]

very much agree on the elbows as well. That’s another issue I’ve had over the last year or so (although not right now), as well as some pain along the outside of my upper arm that flares up from time to time. I also own some elbow sleeves, which I like to use on heavy overhead pressing. I can’t use these in powerlifting, but I can in strongman. They’re alright, but not as useful as the wrist wraps.

Uhhhhhhhh… I’m not a fan of this new forum interface. I may continue to log workouts on here since I’ve gotten so much logged already in this thread, but I doubt I’ll be doing much posting. Too hard to read, all the quoting is screwed up. Hope this gets fixed.

Quotes should be fixed by tomorrow or sooner. The new format becomes familiar and easier to manage after just a few days of getting used to it.

Good to know. I’ll give it a chance… JUST FOR YOU.

My elbow hurts. Like right on the point of the elbow. Happened during bench press last night.

Anyway, really good bench session aside from that. I THINK I hit a PR single. Pressed 345, which was going to be the heaviest lift of the day, but it went up fast enough that I decided to do 365. Paused 365. It was a grinder, but it was either my best gym bench press or matched my best.

Did some lighter benching, some dips, pull ups, and curls.

Elbow is almost feeling 100% today. Definitely a relief. I applied heat to it for about 20 minutes last night. Seemed to help a lot. I’m much too close to competing to deal with a more serious injury.