Occupy Wall Street

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
485

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
FWIW, here is the demand from the self-appointed OWS crowd:

  1. We demand the union of all free social people in the world on the basis of the principle of self-determination of all peoples.

  2. We demand that the downtrodden people have rights equal to those of other classes; and that treaties, laws, and regulations that oppose such rights in favor of corporations and banks shall be abrogated.

  3. We demand land and housing. Large landowners and landlord holdings must be broken up and distributed to the underprivileged.

  4. All peoples of the world may become citizens, but only those who agree to redistribution can become citizens. No capitalist may be a citizen.

  5. Those who are not citizens may live in the USA as foreigners and must be subject to the law of aliens.

  6. The right to choose the government and determine the laws of the State shall belong only to citizens. We therefore demand that no public office, of whatever nature, whether in the central government, the province, or the municipality, shall be held by anyone who is not a citizen.

  7. We wage war against the corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed to posts by favor of the party without regard to character and fitness.

  8. We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood. If it should not be possible to feed the whole population, then aliens (non-citizens) must be expelled.

  9. All citizens must possess equal rights and duties.

  10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all.
    Therefore we demand:

  11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

  12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

  13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

  14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

  15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions and pensions for the unemployed.

  16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

  17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

  18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished, regardless of creed or race.

  19. We demand that capitalistic system, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by a modern a living law.

  20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious citizen to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of underprivileged parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.

  21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

  22. We demand the abolition of the regular military and the military-industrial complex and the creation of a people?s army.

  23. We demand that there be a legal campaign against those
    who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a free press:

(a) Al editors and their assistants on news stations or sources published in USA (including web sites) shall be citizens.

(b) All financial interests in or in any way affecting USA news sources shall be forbidden to non-citizens by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of trangressors.

  1. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.

  2. We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the modern citizen, but we must fight against the Judeo-Christian materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the principle:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the several states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs.[/quote]

Are you sure that’s not just a quote from Animal Farm?

486

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
FWIW, here is the demand from the self-appointed OWS crowd:

  1. We demand the union of all free social people in the world on the basis of the principle of self-determination of all peoples.

  2. We demand that the downtrodden people have rights equal to those of other classes; and that treaties, laws, and regulations that oppose such rights in favor of corporations and banks shall be abrogated.

  3. We demand land and housing. Large landowners and landlord holdings must be broken up and distributed to the underprivileged.

  4. All peoples of the world may become citizens, but only those who agree to redistribution can become citizens. No capitalist may be a citizen.

  5. Those who are not citizens may live in the USA as foreigners and must be subject to the law of aliens.

  6. The right to choose the government and determine the laws of the State shall belong only to citizens. We therefore demand that no public office, of whatever nature, whether in the central government, the province, or the municipality, shall be held by anyone who is not a citizen.

  7. We wage war against the corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed to posts by favor of the party without regard to character and fitness.

  8. We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood. If it should not be possible to feed the whole population, then aliens (non-citizens) must be expelled.

  9. All citizens must possess equal rights and duties.

  10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all.
    Therefore we demand:

  11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

  12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

  13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

  14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

  15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions and pensions for the unemployed.

  16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

  17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

  18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished, regardless of creed or race.

  19. We demand that capitalistic system, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by a modern a living law.

  20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious citizen to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of underprivileged parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.

  21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

  22. We demand the abolition of the regular military and the military-industrial complex and the creation of a people?s army.

  23. We demand that there be a legal campaign against those
    who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a free press:

(a) Al editors and their assistants on news stations or sources published in USA (including web sites) shall be citizens.

(b) All financial interests in or in any way affecting USA news sources shall be forbidden to non-citizens by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of trangressors.

  1. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.

  2. We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the modern citizen, but we must fight against the Judeo-Christian materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the principle:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the several states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs.[/quote]

Hasn’t this all been tried, to the detriment of millions?

487

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
FWIW, here is the demand from the self-appointed OWS crowd:

  1. We demand the union of all free social people in the world on the basis of the principle of self-determination of all peoples.

  2. We demand that the downtrodden people have rights equal to those of other classes; and that treaties, laws, and regulations that oppose such rights in favor of corporations and banks shall be abrogated.

  3. We demand land and housing. Large landowners and landlord holdings must be broken up and distributed to the underprivileged.

  4. All peoples of the world may become citizens, but only those who agree to redistribution can become citizens. No capitalist may be a citizen.

  5. Those who are not citizens may live in the USA as foreigners and must be subject to the law of aliens.

  6. The right to choose the government and determine the laws of the State shall belong only to citizens. We therefore demand that no public office, of whatever nature, whether in the central government, the province, or the municipality, shall be held by anyone who is not a citizen.

  7. We wage war against the corrupt parliamentary administration whereby men are appointed to posts by favor of the party without regard to character and fitness.

  8. We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood. If it should not be possible to feed the whole population, then aliens (non-citizens) must be expelled.

  9. All citizens must possess equal rights and duties.

  10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all.
    Therefore we demand:

  11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

  12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

  13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

  14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

  15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions and pensions for the unemployed.

  16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

  17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

  18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished, regardless of creed or race.

  19. We demand that capitalistic system, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by a modern a living law.

  20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious citizen to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of underprivileged parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.

  21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

  22. We demand the abolition of the regular military and the military-industrial complex and the creation of a people?s army.

  23. We demand that there be a legal campaign against those
    who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press. In order to make possible the creation of a free press:

(a) Al editors and their assistants on news stations or sources published in USA (including web sites) shall be citizens.

(b) All financial interests in or in any way affecting USA news sources shall be forbidden to non-citizens by law, and we demand that the punishment for transgressing this law be the immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of trangressors.

  1. We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk, and that any organizations that offend against the foregoing demands shall be dissolved.

  2. We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the modern citizen, but we must fight against the Judeo-Christian materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our folk can only come about from within on the principle:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the several states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs.[/quote]

Hasn’t this all been tried, to the detriment of millions?[/quote]

I believe billions is the more accurate number.

488

[quote]pat wrote:

Hasn’t this all been tried, to the detriment of millions?[/quote]

Yes, by the Nazi Party. Those are the re-tooled points of the party. Not real, heh.

489

“We demand legal action against those tendencies in art and literature that have a disruptive influence upon the life of our folk”

  • Legal action against “tendencies;” good stuff.

“We demand that there be a legal campaign against those who propagate deliberate political lies and disseminate them through the press…immediate suppression of the newspaper and the expulsion of trangressors…ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished” etc

  • First amendment suppression, exiles, proscriptions; happy days.
490

Just a heads up, those aren’t their (OWS) points…It’s a variation of the 25 points of the Nazi Party.

491

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Just a heads up, those aren’t their (OWS) points…It’s a variation of the 25 points of the Nazi Party.[/quote]

So its a strawman, I see…

The paint our political opponents as nazi`s trick its getting a bit old.

492

not exactly a strawman. Just a stretch.

Some of their ideas are actually disturbingly close to the (early) propaganda of the NSDAP.
They just don’t know enough history to realize it.

but you should.

493

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Hasn’t this all been tried, to the detriment of millions?[/quote]

Yes, by the Nazi Party. Those are the re-tooled points of the party. Not real, heh.[/quote]

I concur that is almost certainly the origin, having now looked.

The idiots in the park are accepting it as their points without knowing the origin. In fact, it was forwarded to me by one of the protestors holding an iPhone when I asked him what he wanted.

I don’t doubt an agent provacatuer sent it to him.

And the protestors, having brains of mush, thought it sounded great.

Their other stated demand is for someone to pay their student loans. They blame wall street for refusing to hire them with their useless art degrees. I suggest they look to the education system that sold them a bill of goods.

Pretty amusing at how stupid they are, if they weren’t merely useful tools for actual dangerous people.

494

[quote]kamui wrote:
not exactly a strawman. Just a stretch.

Some of their ideas are actually disturbingly close to the (early) propaganda of the NSDAP.
They just don’t know enough history to realize it.

but you should. [/quote]

You mean that they shant “blood and land”, “the socialdemocrats are traitors because they
signed the versaille treaty”, “democray is a rotten corps”,“Jews are behind both capitalism and communism”, " We are the third way beetwen socialism and capitalism", “Let us restore the ancient greatness of the holy Roman empire/Usa”, “eine folk, eine reich unt eine fuhrer” etc during the protests?

I did not know they did.

495

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
not exactly a strawman. Just a stretch.

Some of their ideas are actually disturbingly close to the (early) propaganda of the NSDAP.
They just don’t know enough history to realize it.

but you should. [/quote]

You mean that they shant “blood and land”, “the socialdemocrats are traitors because they
signed the versaille treaty”, “democray is a rotten corps”,“Jews are behind both capitalism and communism”, " We are the third way beetwen socialism and capitalism", “Let us restore the ancient greatness of the holy Roman empire/Usa”, “eine folk, eine reich unt eine fuhrer” etc during the protests?

I did not know they did.

[/quote]

“Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuehrer”

Srsly

496

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
not exactly a strawman. Just a stretch.

Some of their ideas are actually disturbingly close to the (early) propaganda of the NSDAP.
They just don’t know enough history to realize it.

but you should. [/quote]

You mean that they shant “blood and land”, “the socialdemocrats are traitors because they
signed the versaille treaty”, “democray is a rotten corps”,“Jews are behind both capitalism and communism”, " We are the third way beetwen socialism and capitalism", “Let us restore the ancient greatness of the holy Roman empire/Usa”, “eine folk, eine reich unt eine fuhrer” etc during the protests?

I did not know they did.

[/quote]

“Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuehrer”

Srsly
[/quote]

Sorry if I offended you orion for my abuse of the german language. ( not kidding )

497

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
not exactly a strawman. Just a stretch.

Some of their ideas are actually disturbingly close to the (early) propaganda of the NSDAP.
They just don’t know enough history to realize it.

but you should. [/quote]

You mean that they shant “blood and land”, “the socialdemocrats are traitors because they
signed the versaille treaty”, “democray is a rotten corps”,“Jews are behind both capitalism and communism”, " We are the third way beetwen socialism and capitalism", “Let us restore the ancient greatness of the holy Roman empire/Usa”, “eine folk, eine reich unt eine fuhrer” etc during the protests?

I did not know they did.

[/quote]

“Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuehrer”

Srsly
[/quote]

Sorry if I offended you orion for my abuse of the german language. ( not kidding )

[/quote]

Hard to rape the German language, it rapes you right back.

Srsly.

498

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
not exactly a strawman. Just a stretch.

Some of their ideas are actually disturbingly close to the (early) propaganda of the NSDAP.
They just don’t know enough history to realize it.

but you should. [/quote]

You mean that they shant “blood and land”, “the socialdemocrats are traitors because they
signed the versaille treaty”, “democray is a rotten corps”,“Jews are behind both capitalism and communism”, " We are the third way beetwen socialism and capitalism", “Let us restore the ancient greatness of the holy Roman empire/Usa”, “eine folk, eine reich unt eine fuhrer” etc during the protests?

I did not know they did.

[/quote]

now, that’s a strawman :slight_smile:

you selected the nationalist part of the nazi mantra to make your point, but you conveniently forgot the socialist part of their mantra.

but actually, if you listen to(some of) them carefully, you will probably hear some variants of “the socialdemocrats are traitors”, or “democracy is a rotten corps” and “the jews are behind capitalism”.

the rest is a bit more outdated.

499

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
not exactly a strawman. Just a stretch.

Some of their ideas are actually disturbingly close to the (early) propaganda of the NSDAP.
They just don’t know enough history to realize it.

but you should. [/quote]

You mean that they shant “blood and land”, “the socialdemocrats are traitors because they
signed the versaille treaty”, “democray is a rotten corps”,“Jews are behind both capitalism and communism”, " We are the third way beetwen socialism and capitalism", “Let us restore the ancient greatness of the holy Roman empire/Usa”, “eine folk, eine reich unt eine fuhrer” etc during the protests?

I did not know they did.

[/quote]

now, that’s a strawman :slight_smile:

you selected the nationalist part of the nazi mantra to make your point, but you conveniently forgot the socialist part of their mantra.

but actually, if you listen to(some of) them carefully, you will probably hear some variants of “the socialdemocrats are traitors”, or “democracy is a rotten corps” and “the jews are behind capitalism”.

the rest is a bit more outdated.

[/quote]

I you just listed what I could remember of nazi quotes etc.

Regarding the nationalist part of the national-socialist ideology: Is it not the nationalist and reactionary part of this ideology that sets it a part from regular socialism( that often are described as internationalist ) and in many ways what defines it.

If I remember correctly, I think it was a jewish socialist who described nazism as: “socialism for the dumb” ( I am paraphrasing offcourse )

When it comes to similaritys to nazi ideas and thinking, I find the retoric that put all the blame on the banking elite( classical jewish steriotype ), like alex jones-ish retorics etc. I think I have heard some of that retoric in some of the vids posted here.
( and offcourse the ones of the guy who blame everything on the jews ).

ps. Most of my info about this protest is form this thread, so I dont know anymore that what have been posted in this thread.

and I am sorry in advance if I abused somebodys language this time to.

500

lol, I had a conversation with one of the self-proclaimed socialists not too long ago - he didn’t know that NAZI actually stood for national-socialism.

501

This shit just started up in my hometown, I am currently studying abroad but I wish I could go see what these folks are actually thinking.

502

To end my thoughts on the subject of “protesters spouting similar shit as nazis”…

Okay lets say that some of this protesters are having retorical lines resembeling the socialist-ish retorical
lines( not nationalist, reactionary, racist, sexist, militarist etc ) from the nazi party. Well my question then is: Is there a chance that theire retorics can lead to a USA where etnich and religious minoritys, gays and political opponents are sendt to deathcamps? And will it lead to an Usa without democracy and with a dictaturship instead? And will it lead to a Usa that have an aggressive warfare policy( nevermind that last one, thats allready in place :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: ).

If the answer is no to my question( offcourse it is, its retorical ), then why should this be a concern to us?

503

looks like the Nazis and Communists now officially support the Occupy movement

504

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Just a heads up, those aren’t their (OWS) points…It’s a variation of the 25 points of the Nazi Party.[/quote]

So its a strawman, I see…

The paint our political opponents as nazi`s trick its getting a bit old.

[/quote]

Well…since the American Nazi Party has thrown their support behind the occupy movement…I wouldn’t say it’s to far of a stretch…