power to the puppets
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
“In the 1950′s the pay separation between the average worker and CEO?s in what we now call the Fortune 500 companies used to be about 20 to 1 (for every dollar a mid level manager made, a CEO made 20 dollars. ) 20 to 1 was here in American and extreme compared to the rest of the world where even now it is more commonly about half of that. During the 1980s the pay gap between CEO?s and average workers grew from 42:1 to almost 85:1. By 2004 it had jumped to 301 : 1. And now??? well now, right here in the good old US of A, the ratio of CEO pay to average worker pay is running 475 to 1 while in Japan, a very profitable nation with a very good standard of living, the ratio is 11 to 1. The average Japanese CEO would kill himself in shame if his company failed so badly that it needed to be bailed out by the government in order to stop the world economy from crashing. American CEO?s take bonuses of 15 million dollars for doing that.”
[/quote]
What does average worker pay mean, as a figure?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]benos4752 wrote:
Lazy, stupid scum…all of them (the protesters).
“I took $100,000 for a history degree.” Dumbass. First, if you’re picking a subject that has little return for a job, how’s that my fault? And why do you have $100,000 in loans? Let me guess, you didn’t want to work and go to school so you used loans to pay for everything include rent and food. And let’s say you study history because want to become a teacher (admirable, I’m studying english literature because I wish to become a teacher), then get your bachelors from a state school, get a job, and later, when you can support yourself, go back for a higher degree and more pay.
You’re 20, have no job or job experience? That’s your fault…or your parents. Should have gotten a job at McDonalds in high school. Not too late though, fast food is always hiring…there’s your experience.
These fucking people. I started working when I was 14 (guess I’m one of those privileged few to be lucky enough to start working on farms in the summer). Saved. When I was 16, bought my own car (used, from family). Turned 18, graduated, went to a community college, got my associates and EMT training. Got a job as an EMT. Saved and saved and saved. Now, I’m 24 and working on my bachelors. Suuure, you little 99 percenters got to graduate at 22, maybe 23. But, you either did it on mommy and daddy’s dime, or took out a shit ton of loans; meanwhile, I’m completely self-sufficient and have ten years of job experience under my belt. So even if I can’t score a teaching job right out of college, I can pretty easily get a job and be just fine while I look for one. And by look, I mean call, visit, search, possibly even have to look out of state, but I’ll still get one before your asses because I understand that A) they don’t come to you and B) you have to work your ass off make yourself look better than the rest.
I’ve been working my ass off for years. I’ve saved my money. Just because mommy and daddy handed everything to you and you’ve never had to work for anything in your life…that’s not my fault. We all make choices, don’t try to get sympathy from me because you made the wrong ones.[/quote]
This is one of the most bitter, bullshit filled posts I’ve ever read here.
There’s no fucking jobs. People get angry when there’s no fucking jobs, especially when they’ve been told that if they go to college and get a degree in WHATEVER they’ll be able to get a job.
I love this Occupy Wall Street thing and I hope it spreads in order to counteract that dipshit-filled Teabagger party that has hijacked my country.
[/quote]
What !?!
You support stupid and reckless speculators to be bailed out or rewarded !?!
Because when you bet that you can make an investment of 100 grand back with a history degree that is what you are.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
[quote]malonetd wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
“They conditioned me in high school to believe going to a 4-year-university was the proper way to pave my future. I took out loan after loan convinced I?d get a well-paying job after I graduate and it would all be worth it. But here I am now, in my 5th year of university with at least 3 more semesters to go and an uncertain future. With constant budget cuts, increasing tuition, fewer classes, and rising student populations how I am I ever supposed to graduate? I?ve reached my max amount of units allotted (A recent policy my school has adapted to get students in and out as quickly as possible, they?re running a business after-all) and the school is threatening to kick me out. What am I going to do with no degree, 40k in debt and an incomplete education?”
Spoiled little brats indeed.
[/quote]
Maybe not a spoiled brat (at least not based solely on this), but something doesn’t add up. He’s in his fifth year? With three more semesters? So this kid’s either been failing a bunch of classes (and probably shouldn’t be in college in the first place) or he’s changed his major at least once (and probably wasn’t ready for college yet). Or he’s just been taking bullshit classes and wasting time.
I suppose it’s possible that he’s been going less than full-time all these years, but that wouldn’t explain the 40K in debt unless he’s just completely irresponsible with his money.
I’m asking you sincerely, Cap, how does this invoke anything more than a head shake’s worth of emotion from you? I’ve already admitted that a select few of those 99% signs were decent, but this? You hand-picked this one. What do you see in it that I’m missing?[/quote]
Maybe you’re right, maybe the guy has no business being in college - but he was told it was the only way he could get anywhere in life. Maybe he doesn’t know what he wants to do, or fails classes. I don’t know.
[/quote]
Yeah, well, I have been told my share of bullshit too.
I want some fucking money right now.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Maybe you’re right, maybe the guy has no business being in college - but he was told it was the only way he could get anywhere in life. Maybe he doesn’t know what he wants to do, or fails classes. I don’t know.
[/quote]
Yeah, well, I have been told my share of bullshit too.
I want some fucking money right now.
[/quote]
You don’t understand orion, this is the american dream we’re talking about. How can that be bullshit?
Chicago Board of Trade
[quote]Dijon wrote:
New black death epicenter?
http://gothamist.com/2011/10/07/daily_show_occupy_wall_street_prote.php[/quote]
Stay classy Flea Party
[quote]kevinm1 wrote:
[quote]Dijon wrote:
New black death epicenter?
http://gothamist.com/2011/10/07/daily_show_occupy_wall_street_prote.php[/quote]
Stay classy Flea Party[/quote]
LOL, exactly! And according to most media, just like the tea party… yeah.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
“They conditioned me in high school to believe going to a 4-year-university was the proper way to pave my future. I took out loan after loan convinced I?d get a well-paying job after I graduate and it would all be worth it. But here I am now, in my 5th year of university with at least 3 more semesters to go and an uncertain future. With constant budget cuts, increasing tuition, fewer classes, and rising student populations how I am I ever supposed to graduate? I?ve reached my max amount of units allotted (A recent policy my school has adapted to get students in and out as quickly as possible, they?re running a business after-all) and the school is threatening to kick me out. What am I going to do with no degree, 40k in debt and an incomplete education?”
Spoiled little brats indeed.[/quote]
Here’s the problem - this guy can’t simply abdicate all responsibity for this problem and blame “they”. Did he really believe - really believe - that once he opted for this path, he was “guaranteed” a cozy job he liked?
Jobs are not, and never have been, entitlements. At some point, people like this guy had an obligation to exercise common sense.
And that speaks to larger problems with the younger generation (millenials? I can’t keep up with the categories). They think everything is a birthright, an entitlement. They think a person is “poor” if they don’t have a smartphone capable of streaming YouTube videos without buffering slowdowns.
So we have Baby Boomers - the ultimate generation that believes that are “entitled” - on the back end, and the Millenials - the newest generation that believes they are “entitled” - on the front end. Those in the middle (and the children of that generation) should gird for one hell of a contest.
[quote]Dijon wrote:
[quote]kevinm1 wrote:
[quote]Dijon wrote:
New black death epicenter?
http://gothamist.com/2011/10/07/daily_show_occupy_wall_street_prote.php[/quote]
Stay classy Flea Party[/quote]
LOL, exactly! And according to most media, just like the tea party… yeah.
[/quote]
They are just like like the Tea Party, they have to get permits, no wait no they haven’t, they have to pay for details, nope my taxes are paying for those in Boston, they make sure they clean up after themslselves, nope they have done the impossible and made parts of New York look dirtier than it usually does, but other than that just like them.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
“They conditioned me in high school to believe going to a 4-year-university was the proper way to pave my future. I took out loan after loan convinced I?d get a well-paying job after I graduate and it would all be worth it. But here I am now, in my 5th year of university with at least 3 more semesters to go and an uncertain future. With constant budget cuts, increasing tuition, fewer classes, and rising student populations how I am I ever supposed to graduate? I?ve reached my max amount of units allotted (A recent policy my school has adapted to get students in and out as quickly as possible, they?re running a business after-all) and the school is threatening to kick me out. What am I going to do with no degree, 40k in debt and an incomplete education?”
Spoiled little brats indeed.[/quote]
Here’s the problem - this guy can’t simply abdicate all responsibity for this problem and blame “they”. Did he really believe - really believe - that once he opted for this path, he was “guaranteed” a cozy job he liked?
Jobs are not, and never have been, entitlements. At some point, people like this guy had an obligation to exercise common sense.
And that speaks to larger problems with the younger generation (millenials? I can’t keep up with the categories). They think everything is a birthright, an entitlement. They think a person is “poor” if they don’t have a smartphone capable of streaming YouTube videos without buffering slowdowns.
So we have Baby Boomers - the ultimate generation that believes that are “entitled” - on the back end, and the Millenials - the newest generation that believes they are “entitled” - on the front end. Those in the middle (and the children of that generation) should gird for one hell of a contest.[/quote]
http://www.politicususa.com/en/alan-grayson-occupy-wall-street
“Now let me tell you about what theyâ??re talking about. Theyâ??re complaining that Wall Street wrecked the economy three years ago and nobodyâ??s held responsible for that. Not a single personâ??s been indicted or convicted for destroying twenty percent of our national net worth accumulated over two centuries. Theyâ??re upset about the fact that Wall Street has iron control over the economic policies of this country, and that one party is a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street, and the other party caters to them as well.”
â??Listen, if I am spokesman for all the people who think that we should not have 24 million people in this country who canâ??t find a full time job, that we should not have 50 million people in this country who canâ??t see a doctor when theyâ??re sick, that we shouldnâ??t have 47 million people in this country who need government help to feed themselves, and we shouldnâ??t have 15 million families who owe more on their mortgage than the value of their home, okay, Iâ??ll be that spokesman
Yeah man, just “damn kids these days”. They should learn about taking responsibility like all those folks on wallstreet who… oh. Wait. Got million dollar bonuses for ruining the economy?
47 million people… all just lazy, right?
What’s going on here? The answer, surely, is that Wall Street’s Masters of the Universe realize, deep down, how morally indefensible their position is. They’re not John Galt; they’re not even Steve Jobs. They’re people who got rich by peddling complex financial schemes that, far from delivering clear benefits to the American people, helped push us into a crisis whose aftereffects continue to blight the lives of tens of millions of their fellow citizens.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
http://www.politicususa.com/en/alan-grayson-occupy-wall-street
“Now let me tell you about what theyâ??re talking about. Theyâ??re complaining that Wall Street wrecked the economy three years ago and nobodyâ??s held responsible for that. Not a single personâ??s been indicted or convicted for destroying twenty percent of our national net worth accumulated over two centuries. Theyâ??re upset about the fact that Wall Street has iron control over the economic policies of this country, and that one party is a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street, and the other party caters to them as well.”
â??Listen, if I am spokesman for all the people who think that we should not have 24 million people in this country who canâ??t find a full time job, that we should not have 50 million people in this country who canâ??t see a doctor when theyâ??re sick, that we shouldnâ??t have 47 million people in this country who need government help to feed themselves, and we shouldnâ??t have 15 million families who owe more on their mortgage than the value of their home, okay, Iâ??ll be that spokesman
Yeah man, just “damn kids these days”. They should learn about taking responsibility like all those folks on wallstreet who… oh. Wait. Got million dollar bonuses for ruining the economy?
47 million people… all just lazy, right?[/quote]
Uh, your “source” is Alan Grayson, so consider me unmoved. But, to the merits - fine, blame Wall Street. I am not standing in your way. Wall Street has an institutinalized privilege that I won’t defend.
But where is your indictment of the bad policy that is responsible for wrecking the economy?
The other problem is that the disintegeration of wealth isn’t necessarily a crime - it’s only a crime if it was perpetuated by fraud or similar. If crimes were committed, prosecute. But it’s foolish to think that the poor economy is the result of criminal activity.
But, let’s get back to unemployment. I said it before - businesses are sitting on about $1 trillion in cash right now but refuse to invest/spend it. “Wall Street” can’t make them hire anyone - it’s not Wall Street’s money, and nothing Wall Street is doing is scaring these businesses into sitting on the sidelines.
So, who’s the right target then, Cap?
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
http://www.politicususa.com/en/alan-grayson-occupy-wall-street
“Now let me tell you about what theyÃ?¢??re talking about. TheyÃ?¢??re complaining that Wall Street wrecked the economy three years ago and nobodyÃ?¢??s held responsible for that. Not a single personÃ?¢??s been indicted or convicted for destroying twenty percent of our national net worth accumulated over two centuries. TheyÃ?¢??re upset about the fact that Wall Street has iron control over the economic policies of this country, and that one party is a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street, and the other party caters to them as well.”
�¢??Listen, if I am spokesman for all the people who think that we should not have 24 million people in this country who can�¢??t find a full time job, that we should not have 50 million people in this country who can�¢??t see a doctor when they�¢??re sick, that we shouldn�¢??t have 47 million people in this country who need government help to feed themselves, and we shouldn�¢??t have 15 million families who owe more on their mortgage than the value of their home, okay, I�¢??ll be that spokesman
Yeah man, just “damn kids these days”. They should learn about taking responsibility like all those folks on wallstreet who… oh. Wait. Got million dollar bonuses for ruining the economy?
47 million people… all just lazy, right?[/quote]
Uh, your “source” is Alan Grayson, so consider me unmoved. But, to the merits - fine, blame Wall Street. I am not standing in your way. Wall Street has an institutinalized privilege that I won’t defend.
But where is your indictment of the bad policy that is responsible for wrecking the economy?
The other problem is that the disintegeration of wealth isn’t necessarily a crime - it’s only a crime if it was perpetuated by fraud or similar. If crimes were committed, prosecute. But it’s foolish to think that the poor economy is the result of criminal activity.
But, let’s get back to unemployment. I said it before - businesses are sitting on about $1 trillion in cash right now but refuse to invest/spend it. “Wall Street” can’t make them hire anyone - it’s not Wall Street’s money, and nothing Wall Street is doing is scaring these businesses into sitting on the sidelines.
So, who’s the right target then, Cap?
[/quote]
Young people and workers. Everything would be fine if they would just work longer hours for less pay and show proper subservience to their superiors.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
and show proper subservience to their superiors.[/quote]
Shouldn’t they?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
and show proper subservience to their superiors.[/quote]
Shouldn’t they?
[/quote]
When “superior” means boss, yes. When “superior” means “richer person”, no.
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Young people and workers. Everything would be fine if they would just work longer hours for less pay and show proper subservience to their superiors.[/quote]
I’m not interested in a sarcastic dodge - I am interested in you answering the question.
People are crying for “jobs”. No problem, let’s address the problem directly - so, why aren’t the people who provide the jobs - employers - hiring?
[quote]kevinm1 wrote:
Stay classy Flea Party[/quote]
LMAO. I love how the kid in the last picture is holding up a sign about being in debt in one hand and in the other hand is holding a designer energy drink that costs 3-4 dollars a bottle.
I understand both sides of the argument as I have lived on both sides. I was raised under the impression that all you had to do was go to school, get a degree in something you enjoyed, and you’d go on to live a great life. You’re taught that student loan debt is not an issue because if you don’t get a degree you’ll be a loser and nobody likes losers.
College is expensive. Tuition in MD for in-state school is nearly 10k a year. This does not include room and board. It is not surprising that students graduate with a lot of debt. Even if you do find a job, the average starting salary for college grads of around 35k is not enough to pay off massive student loans. Tuition and room and board that colleges are charging has been exploding at a much higher rate than starting job salaries for college grads.
It does not help then that you are taught that the way to wealth is more debt (buy a house) and then put your money in the most passive source available with no barrier to entry (the stock market). Keep grinding for 30 years and maybe one day you will be wealthy enough to afford a decent nursing home!
It didn’t take me long after graduation to realize that this is a losing game - no, an insane game. It makes no sense to trade the majority of your waking hours for a chance to one day pay off debts that you have incurred in an attempt to actually gain a small sliver of wealth. It is lunacy. It’s not surprising that many people get frustrated and angry as it is simply a natural human response to playing an impossible game.
I also hear what ZEB is saying - these protestors would have a much better life if they started off their day figuring out a positive way to improve their life.
I realized this and decided I had to work for myself and start my own business. Innovation, creation, improving older but proven concepts - it’s the only real road to wealth. I’m two and a half years out of school and have already made twice the income this year that was last year’s salary at my old job. If I have a good Q4 (come on Christmas shoppers) I could potentially triple it.
I think the protestors are in the right frame of mind, but aren’t protesting in the right place. I don’t understand their thought process - it is like they are saying, “I’m in debt because I took out student loans, so I will protest people making money”. Why aren’t they protesting the schools that served them up a worthless degree?
Allowing someone to go into debt to get a $100k history degree is fraud IMO. If I started selling training courses at the one-time price of $100,000 (with interest) on a given topic and lead you to believe you could get a job teaching that topic to others, then I would be arrested for running a pyramid scheme.
As long as people are taught that the key to success is working for someone else is the key to the good life, this will continue to be a problem. As long as they are taught that you should go into debt to get the things most desirable in life (schooling, a house, and a car), this will continue to be a problem. As long as schools continue to pretend that entrepreneurial ventures are too risky and not a viable way to live, this will continue to be a problem. Until schools have curriculum dedicated to the creation of wealth rather than archaic subjects, this will continue to be a problem.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Young people and workers. Everything would be fine if they would just work longer hours for less pay and show proper subservience to their superiors.[/quote]
I’m not interested in a sarcastic dodge - I am interested in you answering the question.
People are crying for “jobs”. No problem, let’s address the problem directly - so, why aren’t the people who provide the jobs - employers - hiring?
[/quote]
Because the economy is in terrible shape (thanks in no small part to Wall Street).
I agree that Washington is accountable as well. No argument there.
I’m actually not a big fan of protests, in general. Yes, I agree with where they’re coming from, and I don’t blame them - but unless a group is protesting something specific (like a bill, etc), it just seems like a bunch of pointless arm waving.
Your turn.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Young people and workers. Everything would be fine if they would just work longer hours for less pay and show proper subservience to their superiors.[/quote]
I’m not interested in a sarcastic dodge - I am interested in you answering the question.
People are crying for “jobs”. No problem, let’s address the problem directly - so, why aren’t the people who provide the jobs - employers - hiring?
[/quote]
Because the economy is in the shitter and Business will not support more employees