[quote]Chushin wrote:
This, from Wonder Boy’s HUB, explains alot:
I am a 12 year old know nothing boy from white suburbia. I am white bread and ignorant to the world.[/quote]
How about we call him “Wonder” from now on…
I wonder how he got this far.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
This, from Wonder Boy’s HUB, explains alot:
I am a 12 year old know nothing boy from white suburbia. I am white bread and ignorant to the world.[/quote]
At the top on his HUB it says he’s 19 years old. Either way it’s evident that he has a lot to learn. At 19 I thought I knew it all too only to change my mind 5 or 6 times before I was 35. Ha ha…that’s what I love about T-Nation. There’s no where else you can go on the Internet and get this much hubris from those who have never had a real job, paid a mortage, raised a family or for that matter even voted. But they know there is not God…LOL
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
You dont know just like a muslim doesnt know Allah is real. You believe and you believe based on very flimsy “evidence”.[/quote]
Not true my friend. My faith is based on a multitude of real evidence which gives me the faith to know that there is indeed a God. Because YOU have not seen this strong evidence does not mean that it does not exist.
If one person knows then everyone knows? Tell me how does that work? Jesus Christ walked this earth and he came NOT to unite but to divide. Have you read the Bible?
How do you know the world is not flat? Because you’ve been told? Or you’ve seen pictures which have been doctored? Okay, okay don’t fall off your chair I do not believe that the world is flat. But keep in mind most of what you KNOW you’ve either been told and retold so you think it’s true. Or, you’ve done a minor bit of study on the topic and think it’s true. In reality you really don’t know much. You take it all on faith.
Are you at all familiar with the sin sacrifice 5000 years ago? Probably not. But the short answer is a God who would do that loves us very much.
We must first accept Christ as our savior before we are saved of our sins. Have you accepted Christ as your savior? Do you know where you are going when you die? You are one heart beat away from eternity, it’s really something you should think about my friend.
[/quote]
“My faith is based on a multitude of real evidence which gives me the faith to know that there is indeed a God”. And so does every muslim, hindu, jew, catholic, christian, pegan, ext… Anyone who has ever believed in thor, ra, zues, atlas, or any of the other thousand gods which people claim to have existed. They all have the same evidence which they are completely unable to demonstrate. Do you believe that the sun is being held up by atlas…no ill bet, because you are right and they are all wrong.[/quote]
Someone does have to be right and the others wrong. You draw the incorrect conclusion that because of their shear number and the fact that they’re wrong, Christianity is wrong.
That’s what I have done. I’ve studies many of the worlds great religions. I’m also a student of history. And I’ve come to the conclusion that Christianity is quite real. Someday you will know this for yourself.
Answered above.
That’s why I asked you if you were familiar with the atonement sacrifices done thousands of years ago. They are well documented in the Jewish religion and in history books as well. When there was sin there had to be atonement for that sin. Sometimes it was a goat, or a bull. But every time there was blood involved. There must be shedding of blood to atone for sin. That’s why Jesus Christ was sent to die for our sins. However, in order to benefit from this gift we must accept it first.
As I said there are many religions and they cannot all be correct. I have made my choice based on my own studies. Hopefully everyone searches for some sort of enlightenment in their lives. I cannot say for a fact where YOU are going when you die because I have no idea where your path will take you before you pass on.
But I do know where the Bible clearly states a person will go who have been introduced to Christ (as I just did with you) and then rejects him. And trust me my friend you don’t want to go there!
I will ask you again, have you ever read the Bible? What spiritual studies have you done which leads you to your current belief?[/quote]
“That’s what I have done. I’ve studies many of the worlds great religions”.
If you are going to go this route, which I figured you would and unfortunetly I have no way of knowing if you are lying, then what specificaly led you to believe that it is the right one, and how do you know that you have not simply missed the religion which may be the actual truth? You claim to have studied some, but you have not studied them all.
“That’s why I asked you if you were familiar with the atonement sacrifices done thousands of years ago”.
It is in no way relavent. I dont care how you or anyone else attempts to spin it. I think it is a pretty sick individual who would sacrifice his child for the sin of another. No matter what wording you attempt to use it is fucked up and in no way would I ever agree with it.
“There must be shedding of blood to atone for sin. That’s why Jesus Christ was sent to die for our sins”.
You are missing the point I am trying to make. I understand that you believe god requires blood. My question is why. Why does god require blood? Why does he insist that in order for a sin to be forgiven it required the life of another, whether it be human or otherwise. God makes all the rules so why does he not simply change the rules?
Do me a favor and ask yourself this. I need to find a way to forgive these sins. I make up all the rules. What would make me seem more like a loving, caring god. Handing over my own son to be killed, and asking for blodod sacrifices or…(fill in the blank). Damn near ANYTHING you put in the blank would be a more humane way of forgiving sin. Hell, go plant a tree, help someone resolve a problem, donate to charity, or build a church.
I really want to know why you believe god specifically requires blood when he can ask for anything and the same result can be achieved.
Forgot to address this as it is really the key statement to help show where I am coming from.
“I will ask you again, have you ever read the Bible? What spiritual studies have you done which leads you to your current belief?”
Have I read the bible cover to cover? No I have not. Have a had lots of questions regarding statements made in the bible and have made it a point to read the sections that pertain to my questions. Yes.
Whether I have read it cover to cover is irrelevent. I could spend the rest of my life reading it, the Koran, I-ching and really every holy book there is or ever was. On that note I could also go to college for a science degree and become an expert in things like evolution, physics, astronomy, history or what have you. Whatever it is I choose to study is not going to change one fundamental fact. That fact is that people like you make the claim that there is an all knowing, all seeing, omipotent, loving entity out there. That this being somehow speaks to us, helps us through life and is there just as long as we accept him into our lives. Now how do you tell a 6, 7 or 8 year old, that they are not praying hard enough? That they are not really accepting jesus into their hearts? Why do I ask this? Because I used to be one of those young kids who was brought up to believe, and those are the cop outs that people like you have used when I tell them that I used to be religious. No matter how much I prayed, or went to church, how many years I lived the life, or how many times I asked for a sign I have never heard, felt, or saw god. Now if he is in fact there and for one reason or another simply chooses to not show himself to myself and many other, well the only thing I can gather from that is that he is a dick.
If you want to have a religion you are free to believe absolutely anything you want. I will still respect you as a person, and I will still respect that you have faith and have your own beliefs.
I will not respect those beliefs themselves.
I have a few problems with religion, but rather than go around bashing how stupid it is, and I do think it’s stupid, sorry guys, I’d much rather examine other non-specific aspects.
Firstly, childhood indoctrination. If a child cannot decide what political party he’s on, how on Earth should he decide what his faith is? Children are TOLD what to believe, told never to question it, and alternatives are either opposed, or simply not offered. Children are not raised in an open environment and decide to follow God, they are told to follow God.
This frustrates me to no end. I understand it’s done out of love for your child, but it infuriates me to actually see it.
The second is the preaching. You are SUPPOSED to have a religion. There was an old man outside my high school who would go out every morning and try to convert all the students. There are Mormons nearby, going door to door telling everyone about how God can save them.
Look, you can believe whatever you want. But do not attempt to shove it down my throat. Do not tell me what to believe. The issue is, that most religions encourage this. I know many people who believe in Hinduism, but not one has tried to convert me, and thus, I have infinitely more respect for that religion than any of the 3 major ones, and honestly, I don’t know a damn thing about Hinduism.
Third, is the stigma it throws at atheists or agnostics. I was raised Muslim. Every member of my family is a Muslim, and my family is huge. I have about 7 uncles and aunts, ON EACH SIDE, then there’s all the children, the grandparents, the second cousin, the family is massive. They all have religion.
At 13 I decided I was going to research all the world’s religions and be open minded about what I believed, deciding to go with the one I wanted most. But, no matter how much I read, atheism was the only thing I connected with. I became the only atheist in my family, and I “converted” in the Middle East, surrounded by family.
They came to eventually, but the question was “Why DON’T you believe in God?” Like there was something wrong with me for thinking otherwise. “What’s to stop you from being a bad person?” Wait, are you only going to be good if you’re being watched by God? Is the only thing stopping you from living a life full of sin is the fear of Hell? Really? My morals aren’t that thin. I have tried to be the best person I can, and try harder every day to better myself. I don’t need to be told I’ll burn otherwise. But when I say “atheist” everyone assumes I’m going to ride a motorcycle over a baby while firing a rocket launcher at an orphanage because God’s not there to stop me.
I don’t make assumptions about you because of your faith. Do not do the same to me.
My big Christianity specific peeve is the mindset that “Jesus will save you.” Look. I understand it’s your faith, that you really believe it, and I respect that. However, I cannot agree with that mindset, and could not even if I considered myself a Christian. I think everyone should do what they can to save themselves from their own sins by bettering themselves, not letting themselves be satisfied that they will be saved for asking for it. I understand that this is “impossible” according to standard religion, but I don’t think anyone believes in standard religion anymore. I have yet to see a woman get stoned to death for getting married without her virginity. I understand this isn’t everyone, but the mentality exists, and I absolutely hate it.
If a God will throw me into Hell and torture me forever for not being perfect, then I cannot believe he truly loves me. Maybe I’m just “not getting it” but what am I supposed to get? Everyone goes on about how some parts of the Bible are metaphors and other parts are literal, how do I tell? One century a fourth of the bible is a metaphor and the next it’s half, and the next it’s going to be ninety percent of it. How am I to know what I should get out of it, when some people need to devote their entire lives to the text, and they still walk out of it saying that they don’t quite get it either.
I would much rather read it like a fairy tale, and take the morals and aspects I like from it and apply it to my life, but that’s it. Religions are just stories to me, because I have no reason to believe otherwise.
@ Reygeken
I wanted to mention a few things:
-
If God loves us, why doesn’t he just forgive us instead of requiring blood? I think you’ve had it wrong the whole time. It’s not that God just won’t change that. It’s part of his nature, which is something he cannot change. God is by nature infinitely holy beyond our comprehension. His holiness requires atonement for sins. That is who he is and that cannot be changed.
-
About hell. Yes, hell is aweful and we all deserve it. That standard argument is that why would God send us there for eternity if he loves us? It assumes that we are being punished for finite sins on this earth. But that is not true because sins will still continue after this life IF we have not been regenerated in Christ. Those who are in hell will continue to sin by cursing God’s name and hating his guts (figuratively speaking). Since God requires atonement and has already had our sins atoned for, we must accept that gift. You say God doesn’t love us. Uh, well then why did he provide a way out? Just because you don’t like that means of salvation or reject it is not his problem.
You: “Hey God! How can you, who claim to be love itself, send me to this terrible place?”
God: “I provided a way for you to be saved. You rejected it”
You: “Ya well I didn’t like that option. Couldn’t you have made another way, one that fits my wants?”
God: “…”
I need to fix this for you.
You: “Hey God! How can you, who claim to be love itself, send me to this terrible place?”
God: “I provided a way for you to be saved. You rejected it”
You: “Ya well you gave me this brain which you knew in advance that I would use to question things that made no sense to me, and then when I asked for you to give me a sign that you were actually there, more times than I can count I might add, you shunned me. Why did you bother to create me at all knowing in advance you were going to send me to hell?”
God: “…”
[quote]forbes wrote:
@ Reygeken
I wanted to mention a few things:
-
If God loves us, why doesn’t he just forgive us instead of requiring blood? I think you’ve had it wrong the whole time. It’s not that God just won’t change that. It’s part of his nature, which is something he cannot change. God is by nature infinitely holy beyond our comprehension. His holiness requires atonement for sins. That is who he is and that cannot be changed.
-
About hell. Yes, hell is aweful and we all deserve it. That standard argument is that why would God send us there for eternity if he loves us? It assumes that we are being punished for finite sins on this earth. But that is not true because sins will still continue after this life IF we have not been regenerated in Christ. Those who are in hell will continue to sin by cursing God’s name and hating his guts (figuratively speaking). Since God requires atonement and has already had our sins atoned for, we must accept that gift. You say God doesn’t love us. Uh, well then why did he provide a way out? Just because you don’t like that means of salvation or reject it is not his problem.
[/quote]
Is this really something you consider a way out? God puts a gun to your head and threatens you with eternal torture if you are not a christian and dont follow his rules. Why can god not just say ‘I want you to be a good person and live the best life that you can and when it is all over i will decide what you deserve’. How can you honestly look at what you just wrote and think that is a way out? Its na threat. Plain and simple
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
This, from Wonder Boy’s HUB, explains alot:
I am a 12 year old know nothing boy from white suburbia. I am white bread and ignorant to the world.[/quote]
At the top on his HUB it says he’s 19 years old. Either way it’s evident that he has a lot to learn. At 19 I thought I knew it all too only to change my mind 5 or 6 times before I was 35. Ha ha…that’s what I love about T-Nation. There’s no where else you can go on the Internet and get this much hubris from those who have never had a real job, paid a mortage, raised a family or for that matter even voted. But they know there is not God…LOL[/quote]
Don’t disagree with your point, but I doubt that you were EVER as obnoxious as this clown.[/quote]
Thanks, and I agree it would be very hard to reach those levels without actually making that your goal. But we all change as we get older. Anyone who holds the same opinions at say the age of 40 as they did when they were 20 hasn’t learned much over that 20 year time span. Anyway when I was 19 I was working two jobs trying to pay my way through college.
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
Whether I have read it cover to cover is irrelevent.[/quote]
And herein lies a good portion of the problem with many atheists. I have read this response many times from those who speak out against Christianity. It only makes sense to me to fully read and understand something before it is rejected out of hand. How foolish this response would be if they were critiquing anything else, be it a workout book, a novel or any other piece of literature. But when it comes to the Bible there are such strong emotions attached to the end point that many simply turn away without looking closely at the rich history and facts that it provides. Rather hiding behind a storm of invective pros.
Question: “Have you read the book?”
Answer: “No but that’s not necessary in order to dedicate part of my life to bashing what it says.”
How very foolish, you’re smarter than that. Take some time and study the book before deciding whether God exists or not. There is no more important decision in your life treat it as such.
[quote]Reygekan wrote:
If a God will throw me into Hell and torture me forever for not being perfect, then I cannot believe he truly loves me.[/quote]
God does not through you into hell, you do that yourself by rejection of the offering of his one and only son Jesus Christ. He loved you enough to send his only begotten son in order to save you from your sins. You can never be perfect, but through your belief in Jesus Christ’s great sacrifice you don’t need to be perfect.
God does love you Reygekan and there is a purpose to your life. But you must choose him, he’s already taken the first step.
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
I need to fix this for you.
You: “Hey God! How can you, who claim to be love itself, send me to this terrible place?”
God: “I provided a way for you to be saved. You rejected it”
You: “Ya well you gave me this brain which you knew in advance that I would use to question things that made no sense to me, and then when I asked for you to give me a sign that you were actually there, more times than I can count I might add, you shunned me. Why did you bother to create me at all knowing in advance you were going to send me to hell?”
God: “…” [/quote]
Everyone has the same opportunity to come to Christ. You and I are no different in that respect. When you ask for a sign he gave you one. Did you miss it?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
Whether I have read it cover to cover is irrelevent.[/quote]
And herein lies a good portion of the problem with many atheists. I have read this response many times from those who speak out against Christianity. It only makes sense to me to fully read and understand something before it is rejected out of hand. How foolish this response would be if they were critiquing anything else, be it a workout book, a novel or any other piece of literature. But when it comes to the Bible there are such strong emotions attached to the end point that many simply turn away without looking closely at the rich history and facts that it provides. Rather hiding behind a storm of invective pros.
Question: “Have you read the book?”
Answer: “No but that’s not necessary in order to dedicate part of my life to bashing what it says.”
How very foolish, you’re smarter than that. Take some time and study the book before deciding whether God exists or not. There is no more important decision in your life treat it as such.
[/quote]
Thank you for this response. You just made my point for me. Lets use the workout book comparison sense thats the example you chose. The end result is what we are comparing here. Workout book: Read and practice this book and this will be the end result–> Body builder, t-vixen or what have you.
Bible: Read and practice this book and this will be the end result–> God gives his son up for sacrifice. You are not allowed to work on the sabath, and the punishment for doing so…death by stoning. If your child acts out…death by stoning. If you dont believe in me and worship me…tortured in hell for all eternity. I can go on and on. This type of behavior should shock any moral person. Murder, rape, pillage, plunder, slavery, and child abuse, all of which are in the bible, can not be justified by saying that some god says itâ??s OK. I DO NOT have to read the bible cover to cover to look at the end result and realize how Immoral of a book it actually is.
How very foolish of me you say. Let me clarify for you. Even if this god you believe in does exist, then he is an egotistical tyrant with a taste for blood and an absolutely ridiculous set of rules he expects us to follow, and I have no desire what so ever to worship a being such as that. If you do well thats your prerogative.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
I need to fix this for you.
You: “Hey God! How can you, who claim to be love itself, send me to this terrible place?”
God: “I provided a way for you to be saved. You rejected it”
You: “Ya well you gave me this brain which you knew in advance that I would use to question things that made no sense to me, and then when I asked for you to give me a sign that you were actually there, more times than I can count I might add, you shunned me. Why did you bother to create me at all knowing in advance you were going to send me to hell?”
God: “…” [/quote]
Everyone has the same opportunity to come to Christ. You and I are no different in that respect. When you ask for a sign he gave you one. Did you miss it?
[/quote]
If he actually gave me a sign then he is a pretty pathetic excuse for a god.
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
Whether I have read it cover to cover is irrelevent.[/quote]
And herein lies a good portion of the problem with many atheists. I have read this response many times from those who speak out against Christianity. It only makes sense to me to fully read and understand something before it is rejected out of hand. How foolish this response would be if they were critiquing anything else, be it a workout book, a novel or any other piece of literature. But when it comes to the Bible there are such strong emotions attached to the end point that many simply turn away without looking closely at the rich history and facts that it provides. Rather hiding behind a storm of invective pros.
Question: “Have you read the book?”
Answer: “No but that’s not necessary in order to dedicate part of my life to bashing what it says.”
How very foolish, you’re smarter than that. Take some time and study the book before deciding whether God exists or not. There is no more important decision in your life treat it as such.
[/quote]
Thank you for this response. You just made my point for me. Lets use the workout book comparison sense thats the example you chose. The end result is what we are comparing here. Workout book: Read and practice this book and this will be the end result–> Body builder, t-vixen or what have you.
Bible: Read and practice this book and this will be the end result–> God gives his son up for sacrifice. You are not allowed to work on the sabath, and the punishment for doing so…death by stoning. If your child acts out…death by stoning. If you dont believe in me and worship me…tortured in hell for all eternity. I can go on and on. This type of behavior should shock any moral person. Murder, rape, pillage, plunder, slavery, and child abuse, all of which are in the bible, can not be justified by saying that some god says itâ??s OK. I DO NOT have to read the bible cover to cover to look at the end result and realize how Immoral of a book it actually is.
How very foolish of me you say. Let me clarify for you. Even if this god you believe in does exist, then he is an egotistical tyrant with a taste for blood and an absolutely ridiculous set of rules he expects us to follow, and I have no desire what so ever to worship a being such as that. If you do well thats your prerogative.[/quote]
Hold on there slow down my friend. You are the one who has just proved my point. The stoning’s that you speak of happened in the Old Testament. If you would have read on you would have realized that all of that ended when Jesus Christ entered the scene. It’s not about retribution anymore. With Christ it is about forgiveness. Just as he protected the whore from being stoned to death in the street. He said “let him without sin cast the first stone.” In that statement alone we see that Christ is aware that we are all sinners. He then said “go and sin no more.” In other words turn from your sin life toward the one who saved you, Christ.
You really need to read the book. Honestly you’re a bright guy if you read the book you may not become a Christian, but you would at least have a better understanding of how to bash Christianity.
Seriously give it a read, what can it hurt? Try beginning in Proverbs, very cool stuff.
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
I need to fix this for you.
You: “Hey God! How can you, who claim to be love itself, send me to this terrible place?”
God: “I provided a way for you to be saved. You rejected it”
You: “Ya well you gave me this brain which you knew in advance that I would use to question things that made no sense to me, and then when I asked for you to give me a sign that you were actually there, more times than I can count I might add, you shunned me. Why did you bother to create me at all knowing in advance you were going to send me to hell?”
God: “…” [/quote]
Everyone has the same opportunity to come to Christ. You and I are no different in that respect. When you ask for a sign he gave you one. Did you miss it?
[/quote]
If he actually gave me a sign then he is a pretty pathetic excuse for a god. [/quote]
First, I always wonder where the hate comes from toward God? I see very few atheists who do not behave this way. If I don’t like something I don’t have to hate it. I don’t eat tomatoes, but I can see why others might like them. I’m not a big fan of Oprah Winfrey but I wish her no harm. Maybe it’s just the young male hubris which must scream out their beliefs, or in this case disbeliefs.
Secondly, your sign was that God gave us Jesus Christ, his only begotten son. Through belief in him all sins are forgiven. There is no greater gift and no greater sign.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
This, from Wonder Boy’s HUB, explains alot:
I am a 12 year old know nothing boy from white suburbia. I am white bread and ignorant to the world.[/quote]
How about we call him “Wonder” from now on…
I wonder how he got this far.
[/quote]
Maybe “this far” just means graduating high school, which, these days, any know-it-all moron can do.
BTW, loved your choice of expressions as you put this chump in his place, Max. Be a pleasure to maybe meet you someday…[/quote]
It would be cool, I was actually looking to see if Japan lets felons in or not, I have gotten mixed feedback. You never know.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
Whether I have read it cover to cover is irrelevent.[/quote]
And herein lies a good portion of the problem with many atheists. I have read this response many times from those who speak out against Christianity. It only makes sense to me to fully read and understand something before it is rejected out of hand. How foolish this response would be if they were critiquing anything else, be it a workout book, a novel or any other piece of literature. But when it comes to the Bible there are such strong emotions attached to the end point that many simply turn away without looking closely at the rich history and facts that it provides. Rather hiding behind a storm of invective pros.
Question: “Have you read the book?”
Answer: “No but that’s not necessary in order to dedicate part of my life to bashing what it says.”
How very foolish, you’re smarter than that. Take some time and study the book before deciding whether God exists or not. There is no more important decision in your life treat it as such.
[/quote]
Thank you for this response. You just made my point for me. Lets use the workout book comparison sense thats the example you chose. The end result is what we are comparing here. Workout book: Read and practice this book and this will be the end result–> Body builder, t-vixen or what have you.
Bible: Read and practice this book and this will be the end result–> God gives his son up for sacrifice. You are not allowed to work on the sabath, and the punishment for doing so…death by stoning. If your child acts out…death by stoning. If you dont believe in me and worship me…tortured in hell for all eternity. I can go on and on. This type of behavior should shock any moral person. Murder, rape, pillage, plunder, slavery, and child abuse, all of which are in the bible, can not be justified by saying that some god says itÃ?¢??s OK. I DO NOT have to read the bible cover to cover to look at the end result and realize how Immoral of a book it actually is.
How very foolish of me you say. Let me clarify for you. Even if this god you believe in does exist, then he is an egotistical tyrant with a taste for blood and an absolutely ridiculous set of rules he expects us to follow, and I have no desire what so ever to worship a being such as that. If you do well thats your prerogative.[/quote]
Hold on there slow down my friend. You are the one who has just proved my point. The stoning’s that you speak of happened in the Old Testament. If you would have read on you would have realized that all of that ended when Jesus Christ entered the scene. It’s not about retribution anymore. With Christ it is about forgiveness. Just as he protected the whore from being stoned to death in the street. He said “let him without sin cast the first stone.” In that statement alone we see that Christ is aware that we are all sinners. He then said “go and sin no more.” In other words turn from your sin life toward the one who saved you, Christ.
You really need to read the book. Honestly you’re a bright guy if you read the book you may not become a Christian, but you would at least have a better understanding of how to bash Christianity.
Seriously give it a read, what can it hurt? Try beginning in Proverbs, very cool stuff.[/quote]
“The stoning’s that you speak of happened in the Old Testament”…and another falls victim to the old/new testament trap. If you want to go that route then let me quote a NEW tesament statement said by jesus. “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” Luke 16:17. He goes on to say that those who break the least of the laws will be the least allowed into heaven. On this same note, if you say that the old testament laws are invalid then that means that the 10 commandments are invalid as they are old testament documents.