All i said was that associations are important.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Professor X wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Professor X wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Good post. I think there’s a fair degree of blindness on this point among white people.
It’s the level of arrogance that gets me. It is like saying, “White America did this to you all but…that was years ago and no backsies. By the way, you are now all considered racist if you speak about white America in a negative light. Oh, and you know any social programs that are designed to get rid of institutionalized racism in the work place? We will call that racist too. Have a great life y’all and yaaaaay equality!!”
This argument is starting to have less and less of an effect, and unfortunately for blacks, Hispanics are completely unaffected by it.
When you say white people, what do you mean? All whites in the US? Those below the Mason-Dixon line? Are all whites guilty because of the sins of some?
The only institutionalized racism we have today is affirmative action, which harms all parties concerned - both black and white - because blacks are perceived not to be where they are on merit and whites perceive they were denied an opportunity for checking “Caucasian” on an application.
I didn’t write “white people”, I wrote “White America”. If that needs explanation, it implies the country as a whole considering whites are and were the majority. Are you saying something else is to blame for what lead to the Civil Rights movement and even the many years afterwards while society slowly changed?
As far as I know, the KKK and Jim Crow were Southern phenomena, and the abolitionist movement itself began in puritan New England, even though white southerners and northerners both fall into the category of “white America.”
America isn’t governed by a majority. It’s governed as a federalist republic, which allows for regional differences in said government, though those have been on the wane as we have moved more toward tyranny.
So, you actually believe that a black man in 1972 who lived “up north” (or anywhere else in this country)in majority had the exact same chance of getting a job as an equally qualified white man?[/quote]
No. But we’re talking about different magnitudes of discrimination here. Government mandated discrimination and second class citizenship is different than private companies or people discriminating if they want. As long as there are different races of people living together, there will be discrimination. Latin America is a profound example of this.
Not giving someone a job and hanging them or terrorizing them are two different things.
Another interesting older article:
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Professor X wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Professor X wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Professor X wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Good post. I think there’s a fair degree of blindness on this point among white people.
It’s the level of arrogance that gets me. It is like saying, “White America did this to you all but…that was years ago and no backsies. By the way, you are now all considered racist if you speak about white America in a negative light. Oh, and you know any social programs that are designed to get rid of institutionalized racism in the work place? We will call that racist too. Have a great life y’all and yaaaaay equality!!”
This argument is starting to have less and less of an effect, and unfortunately for blacks, Hispanics are completely unaffected by it.
When you say white people, what do you mean? All whites in the US? Those below the Mason-Dixon line? Are all whites guilty because of the sins of some?
The only institutionalized racism we have today is affirmative action, which harms all parties concerned - both black and white - because blacks are perceived not to be where they are on merit and whites perceive they were denied an opportunity for checking “Caucasian” on an application.
I didn’t write “white people”, I wrote “White America”. If that needs explanation, it implies the country as a whole considering whites are and were the majority. Are you saying something else is to blame for what lead to the Civil Rights movement and even the many years afterwards while society slowly changed?
As far as I know, the KKK and Jim Crow were Southern phenomena, and the abolitionist movement itself began in puritan New England, even though white southerners and northerners both fall into the category of “white America.”
America isn’t governed by a majority. It’s governed as a federalist republic, which allows for regional differences in said government, though those have been on the wane as we have moved more toward tyranny.
So, you actually believe that a black man in 1972 who lived “up north” (or anywhere else in this country)in majority had the exact same chance of getting a job as an equally qualified white man?
No. But we’re talking about different magnitudes of discrimination here. Government mandated discrimination and second class citizenship is different than private companies or people discriminating if they want. As long as there are different races of people living together, there will be discrimination. Latin America is a profound example of this.
Not giving someone a job and hanging them or terrorizing them are two different things. [/quote]
Right. So, is it your position that the grand scale second class citizenship of black Americans before Affirmative Action should have been unaided because mass racist acts leading to the decrease of advancement of those people are better than the “racist” act of helping those people?
My apologies for having gotten off the subject previously. Will try to do better.
Ref Sikkario, yes, this is Clinton mud slinging. Probably used that Pellicano
fellow though Wright made his work easy.
This is politics. Every association a candidate has ever had will be scrutinized and Prof X will find it does make a difference. Maybe it shouldn’t but it does.
Ref Beowulf, I take a certain pride in avoiding tabloids and talk shows so Oprah
won’t influence me but she does influence
millions of sheep. To her credit Ronald Kessler reports in the Wall Street Journal
that she DID quit Wright’s church. Didn’t say why.
Kessler’s article does say Obama was present after all when some of those inflammatory remarks were made. Seems like Obama can lie like any white politician.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Let me make the point clearer. You wrote, “I am evaluating Obama’s candidacy compared to the growing body of facts that contradict his advertising.” You already aren’t voting for him so why the discussion? Do you actually believe everyone else’s “advertising”? Did you believe Bush’s?[/quote]
Because this is a discussion board. The topic is not whether I personally would vote for Obama, but rather are his associations going to hurt him in trying to secure the Democratic nomination or in a general election?
I can not like Obama’s personal brand of politics and still opine as to his strengths/weaknesses as a general candidate, which is what this discussion is all about.
“Discussion” is the whole point in coming here - it is fun and informative. Well, not always informative.
If you think the discussions are worthless, I have a nickel’s worth of free advice - don’t post in the thread. Some of us actually are interested in seeing the evolution of Obama’s candidacy. Some of us are interested in seeing how he will deal with some of the blows he has taken.
If that isn’t for you, no problem - ignore the thread.
Why do you care? You don’t have anything much to offer in the way of politics, so why bother?
No one here is “patting themselves on the back” - we are discussing news on a political discussion board. Obama’s pastor is recent news. It is very much relevant to the Democratic nomination.
If you’d rather people not discuss Obama - too bad.
[quote]dk44 wrote:
All i said was that associations are important. [/quote]
And they are very important. All the more important when the associations completely undermine the image you have been trying to sell.
[quote]Gael wrote:
He’s not even that black. He’s like, brownish.[/quote]
Yea, so am I…I prefer cappuccino. I actually, I am a honky in the winter and a mulatto in the summer.
There’s been plenty of discrimination against other non-whites and whites in the US in the past as well- the Jews, the Chinese, the Irish, the Mexicans, the Italians. They all seem to make it just fine.
That’s right PRCalDude. Read The Jungle
by Upton Sinclair for one. At the same time the south had slaves, other parts of the US had whole families, kids and all working 12-14 hrs per day under dangerous conditions 6 or 7 days a week for wages that barely kept them alive living in one room apartments.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Right. So, is it your position that the grand scale second class citizenship of black Americans before Affirmative Action should have been unaided because mass racist acts leading to the decrease of advancement of those people are better than the “racist” act of helping those people?
There’s been plenty of discrimination against other non-whites and whites in the US in the past as well- the Jews, the Chinese, the Irish, the Mexicans, the Italians. They all seem to make it just fine. [/quote]
What other race in this country had the negative stigma attached that blacks have historically? What other race saw a decrease in hiring potential on a grand scale regardless of credentials? Do you really believe that Italians have had it difficult in this country on anywhere near the scale that blacks have? When were the Jews enslaved in this country? When did Jews or Chinese have to ride in the back of the bus or go to jail for not doing so?
Are you fuckers serious?
There were Chinese Only water fountains?
How many Italians got lynched?
No other race in this country had their entire history expunged and then had to go through centuries of degradation and second class citizenship.
Does “No Irish need apply” ring a bell?
[quote]sherekahn wrote:
Does “No Irish need apply” ring a bell?
[/quote]
I’m sorry, are you truly about to claim that any racism is equal to any other racism no matter the scale or how many people are affected? “No Irish Need Apply” equals “slavery, incarceration for where you ride on public transportation, segregation in schools (there was Italian only segregation?), and centuries of less than equal treatment by just about every other race” to you?
That’s racist!
Actually, my wife and I are both part native American. Our ancestors can match horror stories with anybody but we don’t preach hatred for the white man and then expect people to vote for our candidate.
[quote]sherekahn wrote:
Does “No Irish need apply” ring a bell?
[/quote]
no, cause everyone knows only blacks are discriminated against.
[quote]sherekahn wrote:
Actually, my wife and I are both part native American. Our ancestors can match horror stories with anybody but we don’t preach hatred for the white man and then expect people to vote for our candidate.[/quote]
Oh damn, he just pulled the Native American card.
The trail of tears wasn’t exactly a walk in
the park. Or how about the massacre at Wounded Knee? How about the fact that Indians couldn’t by fire water? And those
reservations. Really push. And having your affairs managed by the Bureau of Indian
Affairs. Yep. Native Americans have had it good. Been fighting terrorism since 1492.
Don’t confuse folks with the facts when their minds are made up.
[quote]sherekahn wrote:
Actually, my wife and I are both part native American. Our ancestors can match horror stories with anybody but we don’t preach hatred for the white man and then expect people to vote for our candidate.[/quote]
How recent was the last overthrow of sacred land? Does anyone in America even currently think about degrading Native Americans because of what they are? Maybe for you it makes no sense to hold any hard feelings considering you and no one else was alive when Native Americans were treated like they didn’t belong here.
The same can not be said in many black households. All I have to do is ask my parents what it was like to not be able to find a job even though my dad had served in Viet Nam and had college credit. He ended up cleaning Sear’s Department store…where he eventually became manager of his own department.
This wasn’t centuries ago for us. This was last generation. This was “ask dad if you want to know what it was like” not “dig up great great great granddad and ask what it was like”. this was late 70’s and early 80’s for us. Not early 1800’s.
One thing I don’t want you to do is think I am degrading Native Americans. My grandmother was half Indian herself even though she looked black (with blue eyes). I understand that Native Americans were ripped from their land and basically had it shoved up their collective asses.
In my honest opinion, American Indians have every right to hold hard feelings if they choose.