Obama's Pastor

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Red herring. I thought you went and learned up on this stuff?

I am not attacking Obama because he “knows someone who said something racist”. I have stated it many times. My point - which you aren’t addressing by raising irrelevant points - is that Obama can have any kind of relationship he wants, but the nature and depth of his relationship with Pastor Wright contradicts Obama’s claims that he is the kind of person who confronts and challenges racist thinking.

I don’t think Obama is an evil guy - I just don’t think he is who is claiming to be.

Nobody will fault you for ignoring him further. His position is clear: America is built on the backs of nonwhite slaves. White people in general are monolithic. Those who lived in the Northeast and opposed slavery and Jim Crow are the same as those who live in the South who supported it. His anti-white hatred is clear. He is another Angry Black Male - pissed off for God-knows-what - as evidenced by the picture in his avatar. [/quote]

You wrote:

[quote]I owe my freedom to my ancestors who fought in defense of this country, and they’ve received a hearty thanks. They’re white men. Blacks weren’t even allowed to fight in WWI and II, for the most part. You can look it up:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/...1-17362103.html
Blacks were in the rear with the gear. [/quote]

You wrote that you owe your freedom to white men, but then have the ridiculous audacity to call me “anti-white” because I said this country was built on the backs of slaves, Chinese immigrants and every other race that gets looked down upon at times.

No one called you out on it.

No one in this thread even seems to take offense to it.

However, God forbid any black person claim he has experienced racism. You all will take the stance that his perception is off and that he is “anti-white”.

If your comment above isn’t taken as racist, what is it?

More inspiration from the pulpit.

Not much on the golden rule, or love your neighbor as thyself…Lots of ranting though.

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
More inspiration from the pulpit.

Not much on the golden rule, or love your neighbor as thyself…Lots of ranting though.

[/quote]

Yes, I am aware this is not Obama’s reverend.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Red herring. I thought you went and learned up on this stuff?

I am not attacking Obama because he “knows someone who said something racist”. I have stated it many times. My point - which you aren’t addressing by raising irrelevant points - is that Obama can have any kind of relationship he wants, but the nature and depth of his relationship with Pastor Wright contradicts Obama’s claims that he is the kind of person who confronts and challenges racist thinking.

I don’t think Obama is an evil guy - I just don’t think he is who is claiming to be.

Nobody will fault you for ignoring him further. His position is clear: America is built on the backs of nonwhite slaves. White people in general are monolithic. Those who lived in the Northeast and opposed slavery and Jim Crow are the same as those who live in the South who supported it. His anti-white hatred is clear. He is another Angry Black Male - pissed off for God-knows-what - as evidenced by the picture in his avatar.

You wrote:
I owe my freedom to my ancestors who fought in defense of this country, and they’ve received a hearty thanks. They’re white men. Blacks weren’t even allowed to fight in WWI and II, for the most part. You can look it up:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/...1-17362103.html
Blacks were in the rear with the gear.

You wrote that you owe your freedom to white men, but then have the ridiculous audacity to call me “anti-white” because I said this country was built on the backs of slaves, Chinese immigrants and every other race that gets looked down upon at times.

No one called you out on it.

No one in this thread even seems to take offense to it.

However, God forbid any black person claim he has experienced racism. You all will take the stance that his perception is off and that he is “anti-white”.

If your comment above isn’t taken as racist, what is it?[/quote]

If they want to get offended, it’s their own damn business. I’m going to stick up for my kind against your attempts at white-guilt inducement and obvious lies about our history.

Pull the plank out of your own eye before you examine the speck in others.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

If they want to get offended, it’s their own damn business. I’m going to stick up for my kind against your attempts at white-guilt inducement and obvious lies about our history.

Pull the plank out of your own eye before you examine the speck in others.[/quote]

LOL. I had you figured out months ago. That was why I kept asking you questions. Dumbasses always tend to hang themselves if you let them talk long enough.

“My kind”?
So there’s a “Their kind” as well I take it?

That is just so telling of how you must obviously see the world that it’s actually nauseating.

Interesting take on the “pastor denounces America” posturing going on:

Apparently, it’s ok to do it if you’re a right-wing pastor denouncing right-wing issues.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

If they want to get offended, it’s their own damn business. I’m going to stick up for my kind against your attempts at white-guilt inducement and obvious lies about our history.

Pull the plank out of your own eye before you examine the speck in others.

LOL. I had you figured out months ago. That was why I kept asking you questions. Dumbasses always tend to hang themselves if you let them talk long enough.[/quote]

YOUR DOING THE SAME EXACT THING! Why is it wrong for me to do it and not you?

[quote]

Professor X wrote:

What? Someone could call any one of us “insincere” about our religion if they put our every action and every statement under a microscope. It isn’t your place or anyone else’s to analyze or define any other man’s journey in spirituality. That is for him alone.

Honestly, what is wrong with some of you?

BostonBarrister wrote:
The other logical alternative is that he is sincere, and the central tenets of what he is sincere about are reflected in Wright’s teachings. Which do you prefer?

Professor X wrote:
Please, do tell about what Wright’s teachings were outside of “God Damn America”. I am still waiting on that “destroy all white people” quote. I see blogs and what other people think about blogs that are about this man and what he believes, but when asking for direct quotes, it sure does seem to get dry in here.

I want to know what this man’s teachings actually were on most Sunday’s. I do not want someone cherry picking 30 years of sermons and binding them together into a 5 minute segment and then claiming this was all the man talked about.[/quote]

Well, as I said, I’m not buying copies of his sermons - I’m not donating money to that church (Obama already gave them plenty anyway).

However, I did find some more Wright from a positive Rolling Stone article from February 2007, originally titled “The Radical Roots of Barack Obama” but retitled “Destiny’s Child” a little while ago - the author is obviously excited at the prospect of getting a radical into office.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/13390609/campaign_08_the_radical_roots_of_barack_obama/print

Here’s an excerpt of that article:

[i]The Trinity United Church of Christ, the church that Barack Obama attends in Chicago, is at once vast and unprepossessing, a big structure a couple of blocks from the projects, in the long open sore of a ghetto on the city’s far South Side. The church is a leftover vision from the Sixties of what a black nationalist future might look like. There’s the testifying fervor of the black church, the Afrocentric Bible readings, even the odd dashiki. And there is the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, a sprawling, profane bear of a preacher, a kind of black ministerial institution, with his own radio shows and guest preaching gigs across the country. Wright takes the pulpit here one Sunday and solemnly, sonorously declares that he will recite ten essential facts about the United States. “Fact number one: We’ve got more black men in prison than there are in college,” he intones. “Fact number two: Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!” There is thumping applause; Wright has a cadence and power that make Obama sound like John Kerry. Now the reverend begins to preach. “We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional KILLERS. . . . We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God. . . . We conducted radiation experiments on our own people. . . . We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means!” The crowd whoops and amens as Wright builds to his climax: “And. And. And! GAWD! Has GOT! To be SICK! OF THIS SHIT!”

This is as openly radical a background as any significant American political figure has ever emerged from, as much Malcolm X as Martin Luther King Jr. Wright is not an incidental figure in Obama’s life, or his politics. The senator “affirmed” his Christian faith in this church; he uses Wright as a “sounding board” to “make sure I’m not losing myself in the hype and hoopla.” Both the title of Obama’s second book, The Audacity of Hope, and the theme for his keynote address at the Democratic National Convention in 2004 come from Wright’s sermons. “If you want to understand where Barack gets his feeling and rhetoric from,” says the Rev. Jim Wallis, a leader of the religious left, “just look at Jeremiah Wright.”

Obama wasn’t born into Wright’s world. His parents were atheists, an African bureaucrat and a white grad student, Jerry Falwell’s nightmare vision of secular liberals come to life. Obama could have picked any church �?? the spare, spiritual places in Hyde Park, the awesome pomp and procession of the cathedrals downtown. He could have picked a mosque, for that matter, or even a synagogue. Obama chose Trinity United. He picked Jeremiah Wright. Obama writes in his autobiography that on the day he chose this church, he felt the spirit of black memory and history moving through Wright, and “felt for the first time how that spirit carried within it, nascent, incomplete, the possibility of moving beyond our narrow dreams.”

Obama has now spent two years in the Senate and written two books about himself, both remarkably frank: There is a desire to own his story, to be both his own Boswell and his own investigative reporter. When you read his autobiography, the surprising thing �?? for such a measured politician �?? is the depth of radical feeling that seeps through, the amount of Jeremiah Wright that’s packed in there. Perhaps this shouldn’t be surprising. Obama’s life story is a splicing of two different roles, and two different ways of thinking about America’s. One is that of the consummate insider, someone who has been raised believing that he will help to lead America, who believes in this country’s capacity for acts of outstanding virtue. The other is that of a black man who feels very deeply that this country’s exercise of its great inherited wealth and power has been grossly unjust. This tension runs through his life; Obama is at once an insider and an outsider, a bomb thrower and the class president. “I’m somebody who believes in this country and its institutions,” he tells me. “But I often think they’re broken.” [/i]

However, we can also look at Wright’s source material.

[i]WRIGHT: If you’re not going to talk about theology in context, if you’re not going to talk about liberation theology that came out of the �??60s, (INAUDIBLE) black liberation theology, that started with Jim Cone in 1968, and the writings of Cone, and the writings of Dwight Hopkins, and the writings of womanist theologians, and Asian theologians, and Hispanic theologians…

HANNITY: Reverend, I’ve got to get this in.

WRIGHT: Then you can talk about the black value system.

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: I’m going to tell you this. Listen…

WRIGHT: Do you know liberation theology, sir? Do you know liberation theology?

HANNITY: I studied theology; I went to a seminary. And I studied Latin.

WRIGHT: Do you know black liberation theology?

HANNITY: I’m very aware of what you’re calling black liberation, but let me get my question out.

(CROSSTALK)

WRIGHT: I said, do you know black theology?

HANNITY: Reverend, I’m going to give you a chance to answer my question.

WRIGHT: How many of Cone’s books have you read? How many of Cone’s book have you read?

HANNITY: Reverend, Reverend?

(CROSSTALK)

WRIGHT: How many books of Cone’s have you head?

HANNITY: I’m going to ask you this question…

WRIGHT: How many books of Dwight Hopkins have you read?

HANNITY: You’re very angry and defensive. I’m just trying to ask a question here.

(CROSSTALK)

WRIGHT: You haven’t answered �?? you haven’t answered my question.

HANNITY: And it seems to be, when you say the black community, black family, black work ethic, black community…

(CROSSTALK)

WRIGHT: It seems arrogant, ignorant…

(CROSSTALK)

WRIGHT: I’m asking you…

(CROSSTALK)

WRIGHT: … how many books of Dwight Hopkins have you read?

HANNITY: Sir, I’m going to say this whether you like it or not. I’m going to get my words in, and I’m going to tell you right now…

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: As a Christian, sir, I think, as a Christian, you should not separate by race in this day and age. And that’s why a lot of people are going to look at that and say, “We’re all supposed to be united under Christ, aren’t we?”[/i]

So, why don’t we take a look at the “black liberation” theology that came out of the 60s - the Hopkins, the Cone.

Here’s the link I posted before, asking for any critiques of its take on the black liberation theology:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/JC18Aa01.html

Here’s an excerpt of a Cone article I found online:

[i]�?? The church�??s most vexing problem today is how to define itself by the gospel of Jesus�?? cross as revealed through lynched black bodies in American history. Where is the gospel of Jesus�?? cross revealed today? Where are black bodies being lynched today? The lynching of black America is taking place in the criminal justice system where nearly one-third of black men between the ages of 18 and 28 are in prisons and jails, on parole, or waiting for their day in court. One-half of the two million people in prisons are black. That is one million black people behind bars, more than in colleges. Through private prisons, whites have turned the brutality of their racist legal system into a profit-making venture for dying white towns and cities throughout America. One can lynch a person without a rope or tree.

The civil rights movement did not end lynching. It struck a mighty blow to the most obvious brutalities, like the lynching of Emmett Till and the violence of the Ku Klux Klan. But whenever society treats a people as if they have no rights or dignity or worth, as the government did to blacks during the Katrina storm, they are being lynched covertly. Whenever people are denied jobs, health care, housing, and the basic necessities of life, they are being lynched. There are a lot of ways to lynch a people. Whenever a people cry out to be recognized as human beings and society ignores them, they are being lynched.

�?? People who have never been lynched by another group usually find it difficult to understand why blacks want whites to remember lynching atrocities. Why bring that up? That was a long time ago! Is it not best forgotten? Absolutely not! The lynching tree is a metaphor for race in America, a symbol of America�??s crucifixion of black people. It is the window that best reveals the theological meaning of the cross in this land. In this sense, black people are Christ-figures, not because we want to be but because we had no choice about being lynched, just as Jesus had no choice in his journey to Calvary. Jesus did not want to die on the cross, and blacks did not want to swing from the lynching tree. But the evil forces of the Roman State and white supremacy in America willed it. Yet God took the evil of the cross and the lynching tree upon the divine self and transformed both into the triumphant beauty of the divine. If America has the courage to confront the great sin and ongoing legacy of white supremacy, with repentance and reparation, there is hope beyond the tragedy �?? hope for whites, blacks, and all humankind �?? hope beyond the lynching tree. [/i]

At the end of the day, this doesn’t sound post-racial to me. This sounds like the same radical left-wing crap that gets spewed at university campuses - the kind that encourages the continuance of racial hatred. The kind of stuff that Obama said he disagrees with in his speech yesterday - but which was absolutely central to the doctrines of his church and pastor of two decades - the stuff that was important in the choice of the church in the first instance. It’s not simply the manner of expression of these ideas that people find troubling - it’s the tone and the focus of the ideas themselves.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Interesting take on the “pastor denounces America” posturing going on:

Apparently, it’s ok to do it if you’re a right-wing pastor denouncing right-wing issues.
[/quote]

I didn’t see any god damn America, or HIV was invented to keep the black man down or any other nonsense in there.

Looks like two totally different things. Thanks for trying.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Interesting take on the “pastor denounces America” posturing going on:

Apparently, it’s ok to do it if you’re a right-wing pastor denouncing right-wing issues.
[/quote]

I read that. It’s interesting, though not particularly relevant. Firstly, you’d think he would have access to some of his father’s denunciations to cite. Secondly, we’re not evaluating candidates in the 80s. Thirdly, he’s pointing out the same type of political pandering that the candidates are engaging in with the more fringe elements of their bases, not the kind of ongoing, deep relationship we’re discussing regarding Obama.

Jerry Falwell - or was it Pat Robertson - I forget - got lambasted in the press for comments about the New Orleans hurricanes being punishment from God.

Which actually comes full circle to my original question in this thread, which has never been addressed:

How would people view McCain if Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson were McCain’s weekly pastor, whom he used as a “moral sounding board” and a mentor?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
pookie wrote:
Interesting take on the “pastor denounces America” posturing going on:

Apparently, it’s ok to do it if you’re a right-wing pastor denouncing right-wing issues.

I read that. It’s interesting, though not particularly relevant. Firstly, you’d think he would have access to some of his father’s denunciations to cite. Secondly, we’re not evaluating candidates in the 80s. Thirdly, he’s pointing out the same type of political pandering that the candidates are engaging in with the more fringe elements of their bases, not the kind of ongoing, deep relationship we’re discussing regarding Obama.

Jerry Falwell - or was it Pat Robertson - I forget - got lambasted in the press for comments about the New Orleans hurricanes being punishment from God.

Which actually comes full circle to my original question in this thread, which has never been addressed:

How would people view McCain if Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson were McCain’s weekly pastor, whom he used as a “moral sounding board” and a mentor?[/quote]

The press would have a field day. However, neither Falwell nor Robertson advocated an Aryan-liberation reading of the Bible, so it’s any apples-to-oranges comparison.

And for those who don’t think this kind of hate speech matters, I’ll link an example. Ask yourselves, is Wright a uniter, or a divider?

[i]Last Halloween in the Bixby Knolls neighborhood of Long Beach, where neighbors put on a lavish fright fest each year, three young women left a haunted house and found themselves caught in a street brawl with a crowd of teenagers. By melee’s end, one woman’s face was fractured in 12 spots, her teeth were broken and she’d suffered partial loss of sight in one eye. Two of the women suffered brain concussions and assorted broken bones after being kicked, punched and even struck by a skateboard wielded as a weapon.

The story broke on November 3, when local Web site editor William Pearl scooped other media on LBReport.com, quoting Long Beach police spokeswoman Jacqueline Bezart as saying a crowd of black attackers hurled racial taunts (“White bitches!” “We hate whites!”) at the young women, and the police were pursuing it as a hate crime…

…While some media tiptoed around the story, another outlook was emerging as the fast-tracked trial - required in youth cases - hurtled toward its late-November start date. Well-known black political columnist Earl Ofari Hutchinson, who has explored both sides of the story in a levelheaded manner, was quoted by City News Service as noting that the latest FBI hate-crimes report showed that [u]blacks now commit more than 20 percent of the hate crimes, the majority of victims white.[/u]

http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/long-beach-hate-crime/15346/

[quote]Sloth wrote:
And for those who don’t think this kind of hate speech matters, I’ll link an example. Ask yourselves, is Wright a uniter, or a divider?

[i]Last Halloween in the Bixby Knolls neighborhood of Long Beach, where neighbors put on a lavish fright fest each year, three young women left a haunted house and found themselves caught in a street brawl with a crowd of teenagers. By melee’s end, one woman’s face was fractured in 12 spots, her teeth were broken and she’d suffered partial loss of sight in one eye. Two of the women suffered brain concussions and assorted broken bones after being kicked, punched and even struck by a skateboard wielded as a weapon.

The story broke on November 3, when local Web site editor William Pearl scooped other media on LBReport.com, quoting Long Beach police spokeswoman Jacqueline Bezart as saying a crowd of black attackers hurled racial taunts (“White bitches!” “We hate whites!”) at the young women, and the police were pursuing it as a hate crime…

…While some media tiptoed around the story, another outlook was emerging as the fast-tracked trial - required in youth cases - hurtled toward its late-November start date. Well-known black political columnist Earl Ofari Hutchinson, who has explored both sides of the story in a levelheaded manner, was quoted by City News Service as noting that the latest FBI hate-crimes report showed that [u]blacks now commit more than 20 percent of the hate crimes, the majority of victims white.[/u]

http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/long-beach-hate-crime/15346/

[/quote]

Yeah. Those girls required multiple surgeries to get their faces put back together. The perps received no jail time and snickered during the trial. Some of the witnesses received threats and had their cars vandalized.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
How would people view McCain if Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson were McCain’s weekly pastor, whom he used as a “moral sounding board” and a mentor?[/quote]

They probably wouldn’t bat an eye.

Robertson/Falwell blame gays, liberals, non-christians and feminists for the ills of America, not “the White Man.” Blame the right groups, and you’re home free.

[quote]pookie wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
How would people view McCain if Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson were McCain’s weekly pastor, whom he used as a “moral sounding board” and a mentor?

They probably wouldn’t bat an eye.

Robertson/Falwell blame gays, liberals, non-christians and feminists for the ills of America, not “the White Man.” Blame the right groups, and you’re home free.
[/quote]

I hardly think so. Maybe there’s a group that would care less. But that kind of affiliation would cost McCain the support of a A LOT of people.

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
More inspiration from the pulpit.

Not much on the golden rule, or love your neighbor as thyself…Lots of ranting though.

This guy is so fucking ignorant and stupid, he should be on a park bench shouting this shit. Man, the more I listen the madder I get. When he says ‘God’, some decent person ought to slap his face.

This pastor is an evil POS.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Tokoya wrote:
More inspiration from the pulpit.

Not much on the golden rule, or love your neighbor as thyself…Lots of ranting though.

This guy is so fucking ignorant and stupid, he should be on a park bench shouting this shit. Man, the more I listen the madder I get. When he says ‘God’, some decent person ought to slap his face.

This pastor is an evil POS.

[/quote]

Don’t worry. He’s just the advisor to the next POTUS.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
I hardly think so. Maybe there’s a group that would care less. But that kind of affiliation would cost McCain the support of a A LOT of people.[/quote]

Well he claims to be clueless about economic matters and his recent talks about Iran training Al Qaeda show him to be rather clueless on foreign policy too. After 5 years of Iraq war, he should be able to tell Sunnis from Shiites.

Do you think those issues (that actually matter a whole lot more than having a nutty pastor) will cost him support?

Do you think he actually doesn’t know Shiites from Sunnis, as opposed to that he misspoke?

As for economics, as long as he picks someone good at the Fed and sticks with he free-trade principles, I’m not worried about it - the President doesn’t have a whole lot to do with economics by himself (as opposed to operating with Congress). For me, in evaluating a President, foreign policy is the first key ( danieldrezner.com :: Daniel W. Drezner :: Tyler Cowen thinks I'm rational ), and choosing judges is the second.