Obama's Pastor

[quote]lixy wrote:

I don’t know what he meant by “black”, but few people would argue that Jesus was a white fellow. What is certain, is that his persecutors were white. Don’t pretend to hold the One Truth on a subject that will probably never be solved. The best we can do is speculate and go with the most likely conclusion, which is that Jesus was not white while the people who killed him were.

…[/quote]

What are you talking about? Jesus was Jewish. The Pharisees and Sanhedrin were also Jewish - and they were the main force that wanted to persecute him, for political reasons. Pilate went along and carried out the sentence, but he tried to avoid doing so by giving the people the chance to free Jesus or Barabus. The Romans at the time allowed a lot of self rule in the provinces, provided the tax man was paid and Roman citizens were given special privileges.

On the timeline ( History of Palestine - Wikipedia ), Israel was under Roman rule, having been conquered as a Jewish state. It had been an independent Jewish state after the collapse of Alexander the Great’s empire. Prior to that it was in the hands of the Persians, and prior to that the Babylonians.

Note that this was all prior to the Arabs ( Arabs - Wikipedia ) and the Mongols ( Genghis Khan - Wikipedia ) coming in to the area - so they probably looked a lot like the Macedonians and Persians, given they were between them and controlled by them immediately prior. In my mind I am picturing someone like Andre Agassi, an Iranian, with a beard, but that is obviously conjecture - but it’s at least an educated guess.

ADDENDUM:

Talking about ancient peoples, including the Romans at the time, in terms of modern day racial conceptions is kind of silly. For the Romans, this period was prior to significant intermingling with the Germanic peoples - at least among the upper classes. The Romans were more Mediterranean - like the Greeks, Phoenocians and Macedonians, than like the Germanic peoples.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
lixy wrote:

I don’t know what he meant by “black”, but few people would argue that Jesus was a white fellow. What is certain, is that his persecutors were white. Don’t pretend to hold the One Truth on a subject that will probably never be solved. The best we can do is speculate and go with the most likely conclusion, which is that Jesus was not white while the people who killed him were.

What are you talking about? Jesus was Jewish. The Pharisees and Sanhedrin were also Jewish - and they were the main force that wanted to persecute him, for political reasons. Pilate went along and carried out the sentence, but he tried to avoid doing so by giving the people the chance to free Jesus or Barabus. The Romans at the time allowed a lot of self rule in the provinces, provided the tax man was paid and Roman citizens were given special privileges.

On the timeline ( History of Palestine - Wikipedia ), Israel was under Roman rule, having been conquered as a Jewish state. It had been an independent Jewish state after the collapse of Alexander the Great’s empire. Prior to that it was in the hands of the Persians, and prior to that the Babylonians.

Note that this was all prior to the Arabs ( Arabs - Wikipedia ) and the Mongols ( Genghis Khan - Wikipedia ) coming in to the area - so they probably looked a lot like the Macedonians and Persians, given they were between them and controlled by them immediately prior. In my mind I am picturing someone like Andre Agassi, an Iranian, with a beard, but that is obviously conjecture - but it’s at least an educated guess.[/quote]

Jesus would have theoretically been Jewish, But for centuries (up to now), folks were happy to picture him as a fair skin man from europe. Seems alot of people like their demi-gods to kind of resemble them. (kind of the point of these demi-gods, created because they are more approachable.)

[quote]100meters wrote:

Jesus would have theoretically been Jewish, But for centuries (up to now), folks were happy to picture him as a fair skin man from europe. Seems alot of people like their demi-gods to kind of resemble them. (kind of the point of these demi-gods, created because they are more approachable.) [/quote]

That’s fine for religious purposes - I don’t care if Koreans want a Korean Jesus. That probably works best with the idea that God is beyond racial.

But if we’re talking history, that’s something else.

The big question with Jesus’ ethnicity is what color was the Holy Ghost? Was he white like Casper or what?

We’re not supposed to make images of Jesus at all.

Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. "

Why can’t we all just accept that Jesus was a Palestinian Jew? We don’t need a Jesus that looks like a white man, black man, or asian man. He’s for all races.

More like this, maybe?


Oops, like this?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Wright is the one that claimed Jesus was black and his persecutors were white. That is what started the topic.[/quote]

I wonder on what basis he argues that Jesus was black. Well, Jesus MAY have been black (nubian), but we cannot ASSUME he was black just because his language was Aramaic.
It is true that TODAY most aramaic speakers are Ethiopians, but around the time of Jesus, Aramaic was spoken by a wider geographical linguistic group than that of modern Ethiopia and, in fact, it had been and still was at that time the main spiritual language of the Jewish people.

In any case, we can ASSUME that JC wasn’t a white boy. More than just white and black in this world.

I know that this is tangential to the discussion, but I thought I would introduce this.

Above is the link to Obama’s recent statement on race and his pastor.

Quotes;

"I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy. For some, nagging questions remain. Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely - just as I’m sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.

But the remarks that have caused this recent firestorm weren’t simply controversial. They weren’t simply a religious leader’s effort to speak out against perceived injustice. Instead, they expressed a profoundly distorted view of this country - a view that sees white racism as endemic, and that elevates what is wrong with America above all that we know is right with America; a view that sees the conflicts in the Middle East as rooted primarily in the actions of stalwart allies like Israel, instead of emanating from the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical Islam.

As such, Reverend Wright’s comments were not only wrong but divisive, divisive at a time when we need unity; racially charged at a time when we need to come together to solve a set of monumental problems - two wars, a terrorist threat, a falling economy, a chronic health care crisis and potentially devastating climate change; problems that are neither black or white or Latino or Asian, but rather problems that confront us all."

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

Above is the link to Obama’s recent statement on race and his pastor.

Quotes;

"I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy. For some, nagging questions remain. Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely - just as I’m sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.

But the remarks that have caused this recent firestorm weren’t simply controversial. They weren’t simply a religious leader’s effort to speak out against perceived injustice. Instead, they expressed a profoundly distorted view of this country - a view that sees white racism as endemic, and that elevates what is wrong with America above all that we know is right with America; a view that sees the conflicts in the Middle East as rooted primarily in the actions of stalwart allies like Israel, instead of emanating from the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical Islam.

As such, Reverend Wright’s comments were not only wrong but divisive, divisive at a time when we need unity; racially charged at a time when we need to come together to solve a set of monumental problems - two wars, a terrorist threat, a falling economy, a chronic health care crisis and potentially devastating climate change; problems that are neither black or white or Latino or Asian, but rather problems that confront us all."[/quote]

I wonder who wrote it for him.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Beowolf wrote:

Above is the link to Obama’s recent statement on race and his pastor.

Quotes;

"I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy. For some, nagging questions remain. Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely - just as I’m sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.

But the remarks that have caused this recent firestorm weren’t simply controversial. They weren’t simply a religious leader’s effort to speak out against perceived injustice. Instead, they expressed a profoundly distorted view of this country - a view that sees white racism as endemic, and that elevates what is wrong with America above all that we know is right with America; a view that sees the conflicts in the Middle East as rooted primarily in the actions of stalwart allies like Israel, instead of emanating from the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical Islam.

As such, Reverend Wright’s comments were not only wrong but divisive, divisive at a time when we need unity; racially charged at a time when we need to come together to solve a set of monumental problems - two wars, a terrorist threat, a falling economy, a chronic health care crisis and potentially devastating climate change; problems that are neither black or white or Latino or Asian, but rather problems that confront us all."

I wonder who wrote it for him.[/quote]

We know it’s not Wright.

Obama’s speech was nothing more that a political play, part of the strategy.

In it he tells everyone to simply ignore any and all controversy and criticism about him or his campaign.

He is simply telling everyone that they should blindly vote for him without question, because if they don’t, then they are petty and cheap, and not helping America.

His speech is correct but it doesn’t address why he didn’t see this for 20 years. Did Wright only say this stuff when Obama wasn’t around? Didn’t anyone clue him in?

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

Above is the link to Obama’s recent statement on race and his pastor.

Quotes;

"I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy. For some, nagging questions remain. Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely - just as I’m sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.

But the remarks that have caused this recent firestorm weren’t simply controversial. They weren’t simply a religious leader’s effort to speak out against perceived injustice. Instead, they expressed a profoundly distorted view of this country - a view that sees white racism as endemic, and that elevates what is wrong with America above all that we know is right with America; a view that sees the conflicts in the Middle East as rooted primarily in the actions of stalwart allies like Israel, instead of emanating from the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical Islam.

As such, Reverend Wright’s comments were not only wrong but divisive, divisive at a time when we need unity; racially charged at a time when we need to come together to solve a set of monumental problems - two wars, a terrorist threat, a falling economy, a chronic health care crisis and potentially devastating climate change; problems that are neither black or white or Latino or Asian, but rather problems that confront us all."[/quote]

My political take:

The first part of his speech, and the stuff on his background, was pretty good - delivered well, but that was a given.

His overall take on race in America was pretty nuanced - though I don’t think that helps him much with blue-collar white Democrats. And I think, in fact, it may have hurt him with some of them - except for maybe some of them who disliked him because they thought he was Muslim. However, I don’t think this was aimed at them - I think it was aimed squarely at the educated independents for whom he expects to compete with John McCain, and for them it probably worked. He said he disagreed with Wright, and they want to like him - liking him makes them feel good about themselves. He talked in vague positives, which is what he’s been doing - very well - all along.

Still, it’s tougher now for him to be the “post-racial” candidate when he has been forced to address the issue. But if he can continue to come across as someone who isn’t “anti-white” (a la Jesse and Al), he’ll compete well with McCain for the educated Independent vote. He definitely mitigated the damage from this - didn’t eliminate it, but mitigated it - particularly with the base of voters he needs to continue to win in order to beat Hillary (the educated Independents he needs to vote in the primaries, as well as the upper-class professional Dems).

My personal take:

He didn’t really address the issue - and in fact, he essentially pivoted his stance from emphasizing, “I wasn’t in the pews for these speeches” to “I disagree with anything the press has found so far that offended people.”

The more I read about the particulars of Pastor Wright’s religious theory - the stuff from his conversation with Hannity, and particularly his major influences, the more it seems to me that this stuff was endemic to his preaching. Obama said as much in his speech with the line about Wright being a fierce critic of the U.S. I find it difficult to believe that the only times Wright happened to say stuff that went over the line were in the few instances ABC could find in the small set of tapes it purchased.

If he disagreed with Wright so much, and this “fierce critique” stuff is central to black liberation theology, which was the basis of Wright’s religious teachings and of the church’s theology, why was Wright his go-to spiritual adviser and mentor? Weren’t there other black churches in the area offering a gospel of helping the poor and oppressed without the “fierce critique” part? These questions weren’t addressed.

So, for me, I’m supposed to give Obama a pass on this - this being what seem to me to be anti-white and anti-American tenants of black liberation theology - because I am supposed to assume he’s insincere about this religion? That’s the “Obama as opportunist” theory, and I think it’s actually not only plausible, but probable. But that undercuts the whole “Obama as Messiah of Change” thing.

Also, some of the stuff was just typical Obamaian political nothing: Enforce our civil rights laws - which ones aren’t being enforced? Invest in our schools - whose schools? DC and Detroit have some of the highest per-pupil expenditures in the country. More money doesn’t fix schools if the underlying problems aren’t addressed. But we don’t wish to offend the powerful teachers’ unions. What are the new “ladders of opportunity” for this generation? Affirmative action has been in place for two generations now. The solution is to address the underlying problems - but you can’t tell what he means.

Of course, at the end of the day, I wasn’t going to vote for him anyway if he is for immediate pull out of Iraq, raising taxes and universal health care - but those are issues, and as such have no place on this thread… =-)

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

So, for me, I’m supposed to give Obama a pass on this - this being what seem to me to be anti-white and anti-American tenants of black liberation theology - because I am supposed to assume he’s insincere about this religion? That’s the “Obama as opportunist” theory, and I think it’s actually not only plausible, but probable. But that undercuts the whole “Obama as Messiah of Change” thing.

…[/quote]

Even if he is insincere about it (which I am sure he is) I am still troubled he would spend 20 years of his life listening to a racist firebrand.

Obama’s Lies [John Derbyshire]

Not so much lies as a sort of slippery sleight-of-mouth. I’m starting to really dislike Obama.

“Reverend Wright and other African-Americans of his generation…came of age in the late fifties and early sixties, a time when segregation was still the law of the land.”

Segregation was not “the law of the land” in the 1950s. It was the law in a minority of states.

“For the men and women of Reverend Wright’s generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years. That anger…occasionally…finds voice in the church on Sunday morning, in the pulpit and in the pews.”

If, as Obama seems to be claiming, those are the sentiments only of Wright’s generation, how come those whooping and clapping their approval in those sermon clips include lots of young people?

“Politicians routinely exploited fears of crime for their own electoral ends.”

Fear of crime is not a legitimate emotion? Or is it just not legitimate for politicians to appeal to it? If, oh, say, some liberal Democratic governor of some state gives weekend furloughs to the perpetrator of a hideously callous murder who then, while on furlough, commits armed robbery and rape, why should criticism of that governor for that act be out of bounds in a political contest? Or should it only be out of bounds if the murderer is black?

“But it also means binding our particular grievances…to the larger aspirations of all Americans-the white woman struggling to break the glass ceiling, the white man whose been laid off, the immigrant trying to feed his family.”

Well, I’m an immigrant, and I try hard to feed my family. And yes, I have grievances. For instance, I think I pay far too much tax in support of far too many public sector workers, most of whom do nothing useful. So…how will you bind your “particular grievances” to mine, Senator? Or am I somehow unrepresentative of immigrants?

“This time we want to talk about how the lines in the Emergency Room are filled with whites and blacks and Hispanics who do not have health care…”

The lines in the Emergency Room at far too many U.S. hospitals are filled with illegal immigrants, preventing citizens from getting timely emergency help. What’s your line on illegal immigration, Senator? Oh, right - you’re fine with it, as is the rest of your party.

“Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools; we still haven’t fixed them, fifty years after Brown v. Board of Education, and the inferior education they provided, then and now, helps explain the pervasive achievement gap between today’s black and white students.”

What on earth does this mean? It’s true that there is widespread school segregation today. In my state, 60 percent of black students attend schools that are at least 90-percent black. From what I can see, the main reason for this is the great reluctance of nonblack parents to send their kids to schools with too many black students, which they assume are beset by all the problems associated with poorly run public schools. Do you think that they �?? actually we, as my wife and I share this reluctance �?? are wrong to think like this? How will you persuade us to think otherwise? Or will you depend on judicially-imposed forced integration of the schools?

And so on. You can go through Obama’s speech pulling out questionable points like that from nearly every paragraph. The speech is slippery, evasive, dishonest, and sometimes insulting. Sorry, Charles.
http://corner.nationalreview.com/

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
His speech is correct but it doesn’t address why he didn’t see this for 20 years. Did Wright only say this stuff when Obama wasn’t around? Didn’t anyone clue him in?[/quote]

…Er… he quite clearly admits he knew about it before, and disagreed with it before.

Why the hell is everyone acting like you can’t disagree with a religious authority figure? Just because SOME might not doesn’t mean it’s impossible.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
His speech is correct but it doesn’t address why he didn’t see this for 20 years. Did Wright only say this stuff when Obama wasn’t around? Didn’t anyone clue him in?

…Er… he quite clearly admits he knew about it before, and disagreed with it before.

Why the hell is everyone acting like you can’t disagree with a religious authority figure? Just because SOME might not doesn’t mean it’s impossible.
[/quote]

He took no actions before. When someone is spewing racist vitriol you do not have them baptize your children. You do not continue to go to their services for 20 years. In the real world us grown ups listen to what is said from the pulpit and make decisions based on it.

Obama disagreed and continued to support it? I think he donated a fair amount of money. Something doesn’t make sense. 20 years of listening to this is much more than typical political pandering.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
His speech is correct but it doesn’t address why he didn’t see this for 20 years. Did Wright only say this stuff when Obama wasn’t around? Didn’t anyone clue him in?

…Er… he quite clearly admits he knew about it before, and disagreed with it before.

Why the hell is everyone acting like you can’t disagree with a religious authority figure? Just because SOME might not doesn’t mean it’s impossible.
[/quote]

And that’s true. Just the other Sunday, after getting out of my Eurocentric Christian Identity Church, I was all like, “damn, I don’t agree at all with the divisive hate speech. But, the pastor sounded so good delivering it that I wouldn’t mind attending the church for 20 years, donating a sizeable portion of money, and having Brother Jed as my mentor.”

Edit: Nah, see, I actually go to a church fairly represenative of the population. And see, we wouldn’t tolerate some racial bomb thrower. I don’t know, maybe my congregation has more class, and is actually more interested in moving foward, together.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Edit: Nah, see, I actually go to a church fairly represenative of the population. And see, we wouldn’t tolerate some racial bomb thrower. I don’t know, maybe my congregation has more class, and is actually more interested in moving foward, together.[/quote]

Let me guess…you and your pastor are both white?