Obama's Approval Rating at 45%

Who is arguing that? Not me.

It is if you’re a pissed-off republican desperate to come up with some excuse as to why his pet candidate didn’t get elected and looks like an idiot every time she gives an interview. For more discerning people, we’ve already covered the logical fallacy you fall victim to.

I’m going to say that unless you identify factual errors that were made for political reasons, then you have no point.

Two things: we’ve already covered the fact that it doesn’t matter (though I suspect this will do nothing to discourage the whining–the liberal media is the right’s best way to cover their asses once the media discovers another stupid thing they’ve done). Second, I really am not sure why you think I’m a liberal. You ask me to study political history, yet the hammer and sickle is not enough to clue you into the fact that I’m not a liberal.

Yes, but you say MANY things that are not true. Just saying it doesn’t make it so. Get it?

Foolish arguments, such as ad hominem attacks with nothing of substance to support them?

[quote]Thank you,

Zeb[/quote]

Anytime.

[quote]Kanada wrote:
especially if you are a subject. because you can blaim everything on the leader.[/quote]

What the fucking hell? I’m sure as shit not a “subject” of the president.

[quote]JEATON wrote:
Not throwing my hat in the ring either way, but…
I think that many people forget that their are many different levels, lines and types of intelligence. Jimmy Carter was possibly the most intelligent president of the last fifty years, yet he generally thought of as a poor president from both sides of the isle. Reagan was no Rhodes scholar, but love him or hate him, he was very effective. Book sense, people sense, street smart, people smart, they each serve best in certain situations.

I think the appeal of Palin, for those who like her, is that there is a congruency to her unlike most any other politician. You get the feeling that she is not analyzing her speech for the perfect balance of vagueness. She tends to come off as more authentic than others in her profession. It will most likely be a major contributor to her ultimate dismissal, but for the time being it makes her unique.

If intelligence, experience and a proven real world track record were truly the secret to success in the American political system, Mitt Romney would probably be our sitting president. Even then, I am not sure how different our current situation would be. I still believe that people completely overestimate the power of the presidency, at least in things economic. [/quote]

Great Post.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
ZEB wrote:Firstly, concede the point that about 80% of the mainstream media are registered democrats, or independents.

Who is arguing that? Not me.

If you can do that the debate is pretty much over isn’t it?

It is if you’re a pissed-off republican desperate to come up with some excuse as to why his pet candidate didn’t get elected and looks like an idiot every time she gives an interview. For more discerning people, [/quote]

Good way to sidestep the issue. Well, not that good. I’ve addressed this and you have no answer for it. The press destroyed her just as they try to do with every republican as I’ve mentioned and you ignored.

And you were WRONG. MY retort (which you ignored) the press is in fact liberal and is in fact bias. You had no answer for that. Didn’t your professors tell you what to say to that one?

[quote]Unless of course you then try to tell me that just because they are leaning left doesn’t mean that they are biased, (chuckle) are you going to say that?

I’m going to say that unless you identify factual errors that were made for political reasons, then you have no point.[/quote]

I’ve given you a list of former republican Presidents and presidential candidates who were made to look stupid by a left leaning press. But you’ve ignored this because you have no answer. You labor under the false assumption that a press made up of 80%+ democrats are completely fair. You live in la la land son.

[quote]Really, there can be no more discussion if you are not ready to admit the above two facts. If you cannot you are simply blind by partisanship, stupid, or just so young that you have not yet awoken from your liberal stupor.

Two things: we’ve already covered the fact that it doesn’t matter[/quote]

Only one problem I demonstrated how it DOES matter and you’ve dodged the issue.

Commy, leftist, all the same to me junior.

Also I noticed how you dodged the issue of Obama being favored over Hillary because he was left of Hillary and the press just loves a good lefty.

You are not up to the task.

Sorry.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
ZEB wrote:We’re essentially saying that what they are reporting is NOT correct. Furthermore, we are maintaining that it is biased BECAUSE there are so many liberals in the the mainstream media.

Yes, but you say MANY things that are not true. Just saying it doesn’t make it so. Get it?[/quote]

You might just be the last person on earth to maintain that there is no bias toward the democrats. You do this why? Is it because you’re not keep up?

“A study by the Project for Excellence in Journalism and Harvardâ??s Joan Shorenstein Center on the Press, Politics and Public Policy has found that the media coverage of the 2008 presidential campaign was more likely to be spun in a positive manner toward Democrats than Republicans.”

http://www.deadfishwrapper.com/harvard_study_shows_media_bias_favors_democrats

As I’ve told you junior every republican President and presidential candidate has had to face this.

Start with a logical and complete retort of the Harvard study. When you’ve finished that you can then begin trying to explain why the press has called virtually every republican President and presidential candidate “stupid” over the past 60 years.

They really spoon feed the koolaide in college, sad, very sad.

[quote]JEATON wrote:
Not throwing my hat in the ring either way, but…
I think that many people forget that their are many different levels, lines and types of intelligence. Jimmy Carter was possibly the most intelligent president of the last fifty years, yet he generally thought of as a poor president from both sides of the isle. Reagan was no Rhodes scholar, but love him or hate him, he was very effective. Book sense, people sense, street smart, people smart, they each serve best in certain situations.

I think the appeal of Palin, for those who like her, is that there is a congruency to her unlike most any other politician. You get the feeling that she is not analyzing her speech for the perfect balance of vagueness. She tends to come off as more authentic than others in her profession. It will most likely be a major contributor to her ultimate dismissal, but for the time being it makes her unique.

If intelligence, experience and a proven real world track record were truly the secret to success in the American political system, Mitt Romney would probably be our sitting president. Even then, I am not sure how different our current situation would be. I still believe that people completely overestimate the power of the presidency, at least in things economic. [/quote]

Exellent post, Jeaton.

Mufasa

Where the president can have a quite substantial effect is in the expectations that businesses have for the future.

If their expectation is that the future is such that if they take the risk of investing capital and expanding their business in some way, if this is successful the profits will be taxed away anyway while if money is lost, that is money lost, then they are not so eager to expand their business.

Imagine you own, say, a few stores and are thinking of building another. Why do it if, should the store lose money, you are out the money, but if it makes money, so much of it will be taxed away that you might as well not do it?

And let’s add in expectations for the future such as being forced to buy health insurance for these employees that would be added, and learning from the CBO that their projection is that the cost of such acceptable-to-the-government insurance will be $15K/year for a family of four.

And expectations of carbon taxes and all kinds of other things.

Versus an alternate “Morning in America” expectation of reduced taxes.

Is this going to have no influence on your decisions?

And then of course there is the direct effect, on higher taxes on employers being implemented, that they now have less money to do anything with.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
tom63 wrote: Kind of like you living off the parent’s money and expressing an opinion like you actually know something? Socialism and college kids have one thing in common to paraphrase Maggie Thatcher, it’s a great idea until you run out of someone else’s money.

I accept your surrender.

[/quote]

There is no surrender. I’ve run a successful business for 20 years. i am not a college student who has never done crap.

You’re not even in the fight .

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Where the president can have a quite substantial effect is in the expectations that businesses have for the future.

If their expectation is that the future is such that if they take the risk of investing capital and expanding their business in some way, if this is successful the profits will be taxed away anyway while if money is lost, that is money lost, then they are not so eager to expand their business.

Imagine you own, say, a few stores and are thinking of building another. Why do it if, should the store lose money, you are out the money, but if it makes money, so much of it will be taxed away that you might as well not do it?

And let’s add in expectations for the future such as being forced to buy health insurance for these employees that would be added, and learning from the CBO that their projection is that the cost of such acceptable-to-the-government insurance will be $15K/year for a family of four.

And expectations of carbon taxes and all kinds of other things.

Versus an alternate “Morning in America” expectation of reduced taxes.

Is this going to have no influence on your decisions?

And then of course there is the direct effect, on higher taxes on employers being implemented, that they now have less money to do anything with.[/quote]

Bill, I guess the point I was trying to make with my last point was that it is the ultimate balance of power that has more effect on the economy than the president himself. A democratic president with a republican majority congress(or vice verse)…good times. The children are tied up in gridlock and can do less harm.

Here is something I have been thinking about of late. Lets say that I hold the purse strings in my home. All cash comes from me. Anyone wants to make a purchase, they have to come to me, make their case and request the money. Lets say they make a good case, but the amount requested represents too much of the current budget. I like it but decide it will have to wait. Maybe we can work together and adjust our spending so that we can make room for the expenditure in the near future.
Now lets throw in a wild card. Lets say my wife, unknown to me, gets a credit card. She continues to come to me with the basics. Food, shelter, security, etc, but every now and then she sees a goody that the kids would love. They don’t need it, don’t have to have it, but it sure would be fun and sure would gain a lot of love and affection for good old mom from the kids. She decides to go ahead and put it on the credit card. She borrows the money from somewhere else, rationalizing that when things are flush in the “future” she will pay it back. It gets easier and easier until one day I wake up and realize there is a huge bill that I had not been paying attention to. Times are not flush, and I am having trouble trying to find a way to pay the interest, much less the principle on this credit card along with the basic necessities.
This is probably too basic and not well hashed out, but if our government is allowed to tax for the basic needs (education, national security, etc) and then buy love from their “children” on credit, it can only end badly.
One of Einstein’s most famous quotes was “We cannot solve our problems by using the same level of thinking with which we created them.”
A lot of our problems as a nation began when we started to figure out ways to get things we wanted without directly paying for them through our taxes. We figured out “creative” ways to finance and justify our actions. We have not moved to a higher level of thinking yet. We just keep trying to find another credit card or refinancing.

I’ve sidestepped nothing, you’ve just made no valid points. Sorry, you’re just wrong.

Sorry, that IS the fallacy. It’s not my fault you don’t know how to make a coherent argument.

My physics and math professors don’t talk about politics very much.

Well, I’m very sad for you, but unfortunately, that doesn’t mean anything. You assume that the republican candidates would not have looked stupid if they were covered by a republican press, when in fact, I’m sorry to tell you, republicans frequently look stupid because of the asinine positions they take on issues. I watch Fox News from time to time and they STILL look stupid. I’m sorry to burst so many of your bubbles.

You ASSUME it’s not fair, yet you can’t prove that anything they say is not true. Sorry pal, but the press is not beholden to you or the republican party, they’re not obligated to omit bad press. Suck it up.

I didn’t know that “Nuh-uh! They ARE biased!” was “demonstration.” Excuse me.

In all seriousness, you insist on repeating this fallacious, circular argument. Like I said, I’m sorry it frustrates you, but your argument doesn’t hold water.

Except that they are NOT the same, and “liberal” is NOT “left.” I’ll leave you alone, you have some reading to do.

Dodged? It’s not an issue. You’re just making up more paranoid conspiracy theories. Obama was more marketable than Hillary.

[quote]You are not up to the task.

Sorry.[/quote]

Once you figure out what the task is, let me know.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
But there’s also this way to think about it: 45% (approximately) of voters – or perhaps likely voters – approves of acts such as blowing out the budget as astoundingly and horrifically as he has, and so forth.

Isn’t that something to be concerned about?

Not really, since he hasn’t blown out the budget. Obama’s spending has only contributed to a fifth of the deficit for this fiscal year. Over 40% was financial rescues begun by Bush, and most of the rest was diminished tax revenues.

This is why right-wingers can never understand left-wing positions: they get the facts wrong, and so all of their subsequent analysis is wrong.
[/quote]

Whereas the left gets the facts right but all of the analysis is wrong?

I’m sorry, the rest of the world saying something does not make it true. Again, I’m sorry you’re wrong, but be an adult and deal with it.

[quote]“A study by the Project for Excellence in Journalism and Harvardâ??s Joan Shorenstein Center on the Press, Politics and Public Policy has found that the media coverage of the 2008 presidential campaign was more likely to be spun in a positive manner toward Democrats than Republicans.”

deadfishwrapper.com
As I’ve told you junior every republican President and presidential candidate has had to face this.[/quote]

Again, you make the assumption that there was actually nothing to be negative about. Hell, it was McCain and Palin. Their campaign was a joke. There was precious little to be positive about. Again, the press are not beholden to you.

Why would I, when it’s absolutely irrrelevant?

Because they HAVE BEEN stupid. Besides, the “press” called them “stupid?” Quote them.

I’m sorry, when you go to school, you learn a little bit about pesky things like logical arguments. It appears you’re at a disadvantage in that regard, and I’m sorry, but it’s really not my fault. Pick up a logic primer or something.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Kind of funny that when I used to post up W’s perenially low poll numbers, I was told that polls don’t matter and are biased.

So… uh, yea, fuck you guys. It’s biased and doesn’t matter.[/quote]

Agreed. The only political polls that matter are the ones that happen in November in the voting booth.

[quote]tom63 wrote: There is no surrender. I’ve run a successful business for 20 years. i am not a college student who has never done crap.

You’re not even in the fight .[/quote]

No, when you’re reduced to personal insults, unable to come up with one substantive thing to say, you’re done.

You may not know it, but you’re done.

[quote]orion wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
But there’s also this way to think about it: 45% (approximately) of voters – or perhaps likely voters – approves of acts such as blowing out the budget as astoundingly and horrifically as he has, and so forth.

Isn’t that something to be concerned about?

Not really, since he hasn’t blown out the budget. Obama’s spending has only contributed to a fifth of the deficit for this fiscal year. Over 40% was financial rescues begun by Bush, and most of the rest was diminished tax revenues.

This is why right-wingers can never understand left-wing positions: they get the facts wrong, and so all of their subsequent analysis is wrong.

Whereas the left gets the facts right but all of the analysis is wrong?

[/quote]

If that’s what makes you comfortable. That’s what it’s all about, right?

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
orion wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
But there’s also this way to think about it: 45% (approximately) of voters – or perhaps likely voters – approves of acts such as blowing out the budget as astoundingly and horrifically as he has, and so forth.

Isn’t that something to be concerned about?

Not really, since he hasn’t blown out the budget. Obama’s spending has only contributed to a fifth of the deficit for this fiscal year. Over 40% was financial rescues begun by Bush, and most of the rest was diminished tax revenues.

This is why right-wingers can never understand left-wing positions: they get the facts wrong, and so all of their subsequent analysis is wrong.

Whereas the left gets the facts right but all of the analysis is wrong?

If that’s what makes you comfortable. That’s what it’s all about, right?[/quote]

What makes me comfortable is getting the government out of my way to do things for myself and others.

What makes you feel comfortable is giving total power to government (yeah, I know, but in reality that is what it amounts to) so that those things are no longer your responsibility.

One kind of comfortable is different from the other.

Seriously.

Despite the fact that this is a predictable misrepresentation of my views (you can’t win the actual argument, so you have to make up another, similar-sounding argument that you CAN win), I’ll just ask you what the difference is? You feel comfortable giving total power to monopolistic corporations, which have no responsibility to the public. The government, at the very least has to PRETEND to care about the public. What’s really the difference?

That’s great, orion!

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
orion wrote:What makes you feel comfortable is giving total power to government (yeah, I know, but in reality that is what it amounts to) so that those things are no longer your responsibility.

Despite the fact that this is a predictable misrepresentation of my views (you can’t win the actual argument, so you have to make up another, similar-sounding argument that you CAN win), I’ll just ask you what the difference is? You feel comfortable giving total power to monopolistic corporations, which have no responsibility to the public. The government, at the very least has to PRETEND to care about the public. What’s really the difference?

One kind of comfortable is different from the other.

That’s great, orion!

[/quote]

Where are those monopolistic corporations?

I can always chose to take my business elsewhere so yes, I prefer to vote with my feet.

Even if there were monopolies, which there are not, the sheer threat of competition would keep them in line.

Giovernments know no such threat, they are territorial violence monopolies.

They were everywhere around a century ago. They’re here now. You don’t pay attention to the bad parts of history, though, so I’m not surprised you missed them.

Again, that’s fantastic. Ask them how it worked out with Standard Oil and US Steel.

You really are too entertaining. Don’t ever lose that.

And he wraps it up with a bitter libertarian talking point. I give this dive an 9.5 out of 10!