[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I personally think socialism is a great idea, and works fantastically, until you run out of other people’s money.[/quote]
Don’t take my guns or booze and you city folk can have yer socialism!
[quote]HerbertNL wrote:
Yes, I did mean to say that this ‘utopia’ cannot be reached.
But I’m not sure about your final statement. You say that in this dystopia, everyone would live in poverty because that is the world average. Do you mean to say that if we took everything of monetary value in the world and divided it over all the people in the world, everyone would still live in poverty because there simply is not enough to go around?
I don’t have any figures to verify or falsify this but I wonder…[/quote]
It is not hard to do.
The GDP of each nation, or at least most, can readily be found. Add together, then divide by the number of people in all those nations combined.
You will be shocked at how sadly low the figure is that you will obtain. I don’t have the exact number but as a rough figure, Americans would see say 90% of their income leave the country and go elsewhere. Not with a result of making the world equally wealthy, but equally in poverty. While of course destroying our economy and bringing our ability to produce and actually production drastically downwards.
“The poor, you will have with you always.” Unfortunately.
Or at least that has been true for as long as we’ve known and is projected to remain true for some time to come. Maybe 100 years from now or something, perhaps not. That would be good if so.
you have got to be fucking kidding me saying obama is a socialist by any means. my mother grew up in communist russia, and from what ive heard believe me you can count your lucky stars you’re not really run by socialists.
here in the Uk healthcare is provided by the N.H.S (national healthcare service) it has its problems but it works… i dont understand how you can pay taxes and not get healthcare in return.
the free market has bust, thus the US government is definately going to grab the reigns a little tighter. its not communism, its common sense. Tony blair borrowed socialist concepts. doesnt make him a ‘commie’. believeing in a completely free for all, ‘do it yourself, fuck up the economy and take care of your own health’ policy wont work forever
Do you know how many people are uninsured in America because of the lack of ability to get insured, not just because they don’t buy it?
When it comes to this healthcare thing or any “socialist” leanings by Obama, I don’t think anyone rational is saying let’s get rid of the poor. It’ll never happen. The point of this healthcare thing is to allow the poor to have a better opportunity at affordable healthcare, not level the income distribution.
Like I said previously, our tax dollars pay for the poor when they need healthcare that they can’t afford anyways. If some low-income worker gets hurt and has no insurance, not only may he be out of a job and on unemployment (which we pay for) he still needs medical attention regardless of whether or not he can afford it, and we pay for that too. With a universal healthcare program in place, our tax dollars will at least be paying to support a system that allows the poor or lower middle class to get healthcare without going into bankruptcy for it. As it is now, 75% of all bankruptcy cases in this country stem from inexorbitant healthcare costs. The current system has doctors paying huge insurance costs and then transferring that cost onto their clients and even giving the bare minimum of medical attention in order to keep their own costs down.
The only people doing well with this system are the insurance company execs with their huge bonuses. And it’s a fallacy that people won’t be able to choose their own healthcare provider. Although there isn’t even an actual bill in front of Congress right now, there hasn’t been any talk from the Dems about taking away this choice. That talk is only coming from the politicians whose constituents and financial backers are the health insurance lobbyists. THEY are the ones with something to lose if this healthcare system revolution takes place, not any of us, regardless of your views about socialism.
Really? You think none of the politicians involved have ever said, and said repeatedly for that matter, that their goal is a single-payer system, meaning the government and NO private enterprise payers?
[quote]Therizza wrote:
Do you know how many people are uninsured in America because of the lack of ability to get insured, not just because they don’t buy it?[/quote]
Anyone? I have a candybar to give to the winner!
I’ve never heard a politician say “we want to take away the right to choose your own healthcare provider and force you to use a government-sponsored system and only that system.” I’ve also never heard one say “we plan on eliminating all insurance companies and/or all private healthcare coverage”. Prove me otherwise.
Just because I haven’t heard it doesn’t mean it’s not so. Provide a link to an elected, office-holding politician saying something along these lines.
I will say this, and it’s been said here before: the real change needs to be made with the health insurance system, not necessarily the health care system.
[quote]FuriousFists wrote:
you have got to be fucking kidding me saying obama is a socialist by any means. my mother grew up in communist russia, and from what ive heard believe me you can count your lucky stars you’re not really run by socialists.
here in the Uk healthcare is provided by the N.H.S (national healthcare service) it has its problems but it works… i dont understand how you can pay taxes and not get healthcare in return.
the free market has bust, thus the US government is definately going to grab the reigns a little tighter. its not communism, its common sense. Tony blair borrowed socialist concepts. doesnt make him a ‘commie’. believeing in a completely free for all, ‘do it yourself, fuck up the economy and take care of your own health’ policy wont work forever[/quote]
I think you confuse communism and socialism. Socialism is an economic scheme.
By the same token, your mother has no right to complain about communist Russia. Some people grew up in Nazi Germany. She should be thankful Russia wasnâ??t run by â??realâ?? socialists.
I donâ??t think anyone can argue that Obama is certainly an intellectual descendant of Marx though I donâ??t know that socialism is really the best label for modern day progressivism and concepts like â??social justiceâ?? and redistribution of wealth. It really needs a new term.
Youâ??re insinuation that taxes demand a right to healthcare doesnâ??t make any sense. They have to take more to pay for it. If I visit the UK and pay some sales tax there, they owe me heathcare?
And yes, having politicians decide health matters instead of individuals is definitely the solution.
The other misconception about health coverage is The real number that have no access. 47 million is generally the number you hear, but if you subtract people that are already eligible for government healthcare, the number that are currently turning down employer coverage and the ones that could afford it (making over $50,000 per year) the real number is more like 10 million.
One of the other things that drives me crazy is the unreal notion that you can simultaneously going to expand coverage and decrease cost. The 2 are proportional. Increases in coverage and you increase cost, decrease coverage and you decrease cost.
If governmental care expands coverage it will increase cost. The only way it would ever decrease cost is to decrease coverage by denying procedures or treatments.
Either way I donâ??t want my coverage and cost being decided by anyone other than me, much less a bunch of beaurocrates.
[quote]artw wrote:
I’ve never heard a politician say “we want to take away the right to choose your own healthcare provider and force you to use a government-sponsored system and only that system.” I’ve also never heard one say “we plan on eliminating all insurance companies and/or all private healthcare coverage”. Prove me otherwise.
Just because I haven’t heard it doesn’t mean it’s not so. Provide a link to an elected, office-holding politician saying something along these lines.
I will say this, and it’s been said here before: the real change needs to be made with the health insurance system, not necessarily the health care system. [/quote]
lol
Geez, if you want the exact words you stated, the probability of that precise phrase ever having been used is pretty low.
If you’ll settle for “single-payer system,” which means the same thing, how about http://www.breitbart.tv/obama-in-03-id-like-to-see-a-single-payer-health-care-plan/
And as for how many times “single payer system” has been said by Hillary and many others, it’s just countless. No, I’m not going to go find links: surely it is no harder for you.
[quote]John S. wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:
artw wrote:
A lot of conservatives are fearful about the “socialist” health care reform taking place, and yet they don’t understand that you can KEEP your private healthcare plan if you want to. It’s probably the best way to elevate the lower/middle class to a better standard of living and even educate them about the importance of healthy lifestyles. I think the specifics of the process will need to be tuned, but ultimately in 5-20 years it will likely lead to a much better system.
Do I really need to bring out the CBO report? Why don’t you go look up some facts before you start talking. Trust me you have no Idea what you are talking about. My advice to you would be to run away from this subject right now.
[/quote]
Listen, I’m sick and tired of conservative minded people on this site telling myself and others to “run away and hide” EVERY SINGLE TIME I express a rational liberal thought. It’s not socialist healthcare if it gives you the choice to remain with your private provider sir. Have you ever studied government before???
The fact is sir, if you go to the CBO website it says in broad letters “Healtcare is currently on an unsustainable path and will fail”. Obama is trying to do the best job he and congress can do to provide affordable healthcare to the lower classes. It’s the best shot we have right now, and it will not turn america into China like every Fox News reporter claims.
Let me just add on a personal note that it is okay to express opinions without initially providing evidence. I merely supported a belief that’s held by a lot of rational people and I got personally attacked. If you want truth sir, It’s in the bold letters.
[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:
John S. wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:
artw wrote:
A lot of conservatives are fearful about the “socialist” health care reform taking place, and yet they don’t understand that you can KEEP your private healthcare plan if you want to. It’s probably the best way to elevate the lower/middle class to a better standard of living and even educate them about the importance of healthy lifestyles. I think the specifics of the process will need to be tuned, but ultimately in 5-20 years it will likely lead to a much better system.
Do I really need to bring out the CBO report? Why don’t you go look up some facts before you start talking. Trust me you have no Idea what you are talking about. My advice to you would be to run away from this subject right now.
Listen, I’m sick and tired of conservative minded people on this site telling myself and others to “run away and hide” EVERY SINGLE TIME I express a rational liberal thought. It’s not socialist healthcare if it gives you the choice to remain with your private provider sir. Have you ever studied government before???
The fact is sir, if you go to the CBO website it says in broad letters “Healtcare is currently on an unsustainable path and will fail”. Obama is trying to do the best job he and congress can do to provide affordable healthcare to the lower classes. It’s the best shot we have right now, and it will not turn america into China like every Fox News reporter claims.
Let me just add on a personal note that it is okay to express opinions without initially providing evidence. I merely supported a belief that’s held by a lot of rational people and I got personally attacked. If you want truth sir, It’s in the bold letters.
http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/health.cfm[/quote]
The first problem would be weather private companies will even be able to stay in business. Making them unable to compete is the same effect as outlawing them. Yeah, you can choose whatever coverage you want, but the government plan might be the only one around.
Second, unless itâ??s been changed, there is a clause in the bill that would eventually literally outlaw private coverage. It says you can keep what you have and what you currently have only. It bans enrolling in private coverage. So you canâ??t ever change carriers, or sign up your kids. If you change jobs or anything, you end up on the public plan, and once you are on the public plan, you no longer have a choice.
But I guess you are saying it isnâ??t socialism unless they directly move to a single payer system all at once.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
But I guess you are saying it isn�¢??t socialism unless they directly move to a single payer system all at once.
[/quote]
If being precise: the government not owning the means of production but having control over it – for example being the sole payer and the sole determinant of what procedures will be paid for and when and at what reimbursement – is fascism, not socialism.
However it is wrongspeak to say that Obama is a fascist or that his plans are.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
FuriousFists wrote:
you have got to be fucking kidding me saying obama is a socialist by any means. my mother grew up in communist russia, and from what ive heard believe me you can count your lucky stars you’re not really run by socialists.
here in the Uk healthcare is provided by the N.H.S (national healthcare service) it has its problems but it works… i dont understand how you can pay taxes and not get healthcare in return.
the free market has bust, thus the US government is definately going to grab the reigns a little tighter. its not communism, its common sense. Tony blair borrowed socialist concepts. doesnt make him a ‘commie’. believeing in a completely free for all, ‘do it yourself, fuck up the economy and take care of your own health’ policy wont work forever
I think you confuse communism and socialism. Socialism is an economic scheme.
By the same token, your mother has no right to complain about communist Russia. Some people grew up in Nazi Germany. She should be thankful Russia wasnâ??t run by â??realâ?? socialists.
I donâ??t think anyone can argue that Obama is certainly an intellectual descendant of Marx though I donâ??t know that socialism is really the best label for modern day progressivism and concepts like â??social justiceâ?? and redistribution of wealth. It really needs a new term.
Youâ??re insinuation that taxes demand a right to healthcare doesnâ??t make any sense. They have to take more to pay for it. If I visit the UK and pay some sales tax there, they owe me heathcare?
And yes, having politicians decide health matters instead of individuals is definitely the solution.
The other misconception about health coverage is The real number that have no access. 47 million is generally the number you hear, but if you subtract people that are already eligible for government healthcare, the number that are currently turning down employer coverage and the ones that could afford it (making over $50,000 per year) the real number is more like 10 million.
One of the other things that drives me crazy is the unreal notion that you can simultaneously going to expand coverage and decrease cost. The 2 are proportional. Increases in coverage and you increase cost, decrease coverage and you decrease cost.
If governmental care expands coverage it will increase cost. The only way it would ever decrease cost is to decrease coverage by denying procedures or treatments.
Either way I donâ??t want my coverage and cost being decided by anyone other than me, much less a bunch of beaurocrates.
[/quote]
She didnt complain, she made it clear that we are lucky to live the way we do in the west today, and we are.
I didnt say tax DEMANDS a right to healthcare, but living under this system my whole life, I have come to expect the state to cater to medical needs in return for a chunk of my income. I couldnt imagine being injured or having an illness and having to cough up a large amount of money for treatment
Or I suppose, paying a free-market-determined price for insurance?
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Or I suppose, paying a free-market-determined price for insurance?[/quote]
Obviously because we don’t have socialized medicine, you and I couldn’t possibly be insured.
[quote]FuriousFists wrote:
I have come to expect the state to cater to medical needs in return for a chunk of my income. I couldnt imagine being injured or having an illness and having to cough up a large amount of money for treatment[/quote]
Well, here in the USA, that’s how we roll differently than you guys. Self-determination and all that. What the fuck do you think the role of the government is, a big soup kitchen to give handouts?
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
ukrainian wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
artw wrote:
Therizza wrote:
jasmincar wrote:
artw wrote:
You are gonna get flamed man. These people just dont understand. It is not a rationnal thing. Rightwing is notoriously not rationnal.
Says the foreigner…
Yeah, no shit. Lol…fucking foreigners. Hard-line right wingers may not be known for their rationalism, but who on either far end of the spectrum is? I don’t give a fuck if I get flamed. It’s just a fucking Internet forum. I’ve been flamed on here for all sorts of shit. Maybe I won’t get flamed. Shit, who am I kidding? I’m probably gonna get roasted. Fuck it.
I am sorry but communist russia was by far the most rationnal regime. You may think whatever you want about them but remember this: they didnt believe in god. And the other side of the sea there was Reagan who was saying that you couldnt trust them because they didnt believe in god.
Yeah, Communist Russia was very rational in their attempts to kill off all ethnic groups besides their own. You know, the 6 million plus Ukrainians that died in about two years time due to Communist Russia being so rational.
dude this is not communism. This is stalinism or something. Nowhere in karl marx book they talk about killing people. But if we talk about nazism (right-wing stuff) the book Mein Kampf talk about getting rid of the jews. No communist country ever existed[/quote]
Mein Kampf never talked about killing the Jews. Hitler has never been quoted as to even talking about concentration camps either.
[quote]artw wrote:
Couldn’t agree more. The only people really benefiting from the current system are the insurance companies anyways. People can’t afford decent healthcare and a lot of doctors can’t afford to open up a private practice due to the sky high insurance costs.[/quote]
But the new plan does nothing address rising costs. Honestly, I’m not opposed to health care reform but the House bill is stupid.