Obama Isn't That Bad

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]SUPER-T wrote:
First of all if you think any of this is good, I feel sorry for you.
Second, Asking us conservatives to think in a liberal mindset is like asking a liberal to get a job.
True we did not take over banks, but even you point out that we took over GM. In spirit of this thread I will point out some good he has done

  1. Killed one of the pirates that took an American hostage.
  2. Called Kanye West a jackass
    3.uuuuhhhh…[/quote]
    Actually, I may not have mentioned it, but I disagree with most of the stuff he has done because of my own principles. So don’t feel sorry for me bud. Think in a liberal mindset… OK, bad choice of words I guess, but honestly, what did you expect from a very liberal man… to suddenly go the conservative/libertarian route? Let’s be realistic. I truly think his intentions were in the right place, but his own beliefs and execution of noted policies are substandard.[/quote]

I did not expect him to change at all. He did what I thought he would. You say his intentions were in the right place, but his own beliefs were substandard, Is that not an oxynoron? If you believe he had good intentions, you would have to believe he had good beleifs, as that would dictate his intentions. you do not pass a bill over 2000 pages with no one reading it, and tell the American people trust me you will like it, if you have good intentions. That bill was just the frame work of what is to come.

22

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

Obama decided to leave the initiative with Congress instead of grabbing it up himself…[/quote]

Well, mechanically, he had to - Congress is in charge of passing bills. Obama certainly could have influenced the process (demanding discipline, etc.), but he could never “grab it up”. His error came in giving to Pelosi and backing every Pelosi play, which was a freakshow of terrible proportions.

And recall that some Democrats voted against it. And the year of “back and forth” - which you imply was a bit of an inconvenience - was the most important aspect of democracy at work dealing with a most un-democratic Democratic majority.

Wow.

23

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I was going to respond to ZEB quote-by-quote, but instead just read siouxperman’s post, because that is exactly how I feel (on most issues mentioned).

But seriously, bowing to leaders? “Really?” indeed. Because this is such a huge issue and America is now everyone’s bitch because of it. Please. Let’s focus on the big issues, please, not every little fact you can look up on the internet or remember.[/quote]

If you do not see how demonstrating weakness and subservience is harmful then you have much to learn about life.

24

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I was going to respond to ZEB quote-by-quote, but instead just read siouxperman’s post, because that is exactly how I feel (on most issues mentioned).

But seriously, bowing to leaders? “Really?” indeed. Because this is such a huge issue and America is now everyone’s bitch because of it. Please. Let’s focus on the big issues, please, not every little fact you can look up on the internet or remember.[/quote]

If you do not see how demonstrating weakness and subservience is harmful then you have much to learn about life. [/quote]

If you don’t see how trying to be respectful (even if it was a bit misguided) is different than demonstrating “weakness and subservience” then you have much to learn about life.

25

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I was going to respond to ZEB quote-by-quote, but instead just read siouxperman’s post, because that is exactly how I feel (on most issues mentioned).

But seriously, bowing to leaders? “Really?” indeed. Because this is such a huge issue and America is now everyone’s bitch because of it. Please. Let’s focus on the big issues, please, not every little fact you can look up on the internet or remember.[/quote]

If you do not see how demonstrating weakness and subservience is harmful then you have much to learn about life. [/quote]

If you don’t see how trying to be respectful (even if it was a bit misguided) is different than demonstrating “weakness and subservience” then you have much to learn about life.[/quote]

The leader of the free world bowing is not “being respectful”. Obama is smart enough to understand etiquette. He broke etiquette by bowing.

I am not sure if you are being naive or partisan here but his bowing is indefensible.

26

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I was going to respond to ZEB quote-by-quote, but instead just read siouxperman’s post, because that is exactly how I feel (on most issues mentioned).

But seriously, bowing to leaders? “Really?” indeed. Because this is such a huge issue and America is now everyone’s bitch because of it. Please. Let’s focus on the big issues, please, not every little fact you can look up on the internet or remember.[/quote]

If you do not see how demonstrating weakness and subservience is harmful then you have much to learn about life. [/quote]

If you don’t see how trying to be respectful (even if it was a bit misguided) is different than demonstrating “weakness and subservience” then you have much to learn about life.[/quote]

They do not bow to him, and that is not our culture. I think he thinks that he’s doing as Romans do without seeing the issues behind that given the office of the President. He acts like a citizen for the world vs a leader on one country, but I do realize that many think like that nowadays, but I need to know my president is out for the best interests of the US rather than the UN.

27

[quote]siouxperman wrote:
ZEB wrote:

-Failure to send troops over seas in a speedy manor after being begged by his top General to do so.

People would have criticized him for acting rashly[/quote]

No one criticizes a President for responding to a Generals cry for help in a timely manner. Taking almost two months to respond demonstrated his inexperience as an executive.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-Allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire in the middle of the most serious economic down turn since the great depression. This is coming January 1, 2011

they’re doing all sorts of good now[/quote]

Your comment does not take into account that taking more money from the tax payers will cause the economy to turn even slower. You can’t be saying things are bad and they can’t get any worse are you? Things are bad and Obama will make them worse by allowing the tax cuts to expire. Taking an extra 5-k from Joe Smith’s pay check will only hurt the man causing him more grief and also to spend less. Come on I know you understand that.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-Bowing to other world leaders.

Really?[/quote]

Yes really, America is the greatest country on earth and the President of the United States of America does not BOW to other world leaders. Well, until Obama became President now apparently we bow. That is symbolic not only to us but to other nations as well. You understand how important symbolism is, especially to our real enemies.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-Far too many vacations.

Both Bush’s and Reagan spent more time on vacation in their first year[/quote]

My flip answer is yeah but they were good, okay at least Reagan was good. But I agree with you they were slightly ahead in vacation time. But I do think when times are this bad which they were not in the first two years of either Bush or Reagan administration that Obama was a bit insensitive by taking as much time away as he has. But it is a minor point. One of the lesser things that he has done wrong in a large field of things done wrong.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-Not bringing Iran to the negotiating table, or even openly challenging their nuclear position.

Agreed[/quote]

And I’m sure you’ll agree that by not doing so, it sets up a possible very dangerous scenario. Maybe he could just go over there and bow to Ahmedinejad. No that would only cause him to act more boldly as it probably already has.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-Virtually turning his back on Israel.

Good[/quote]

No, no, no that’s never a good thing. Israel is our long time friend. And it also sends a bad message to our other allies. Obama has blundered once again. His Muslim roots might be taking over on this one. Not that he is a muslim, we know for a fact that he attended a hate filled church for 20 years, but he does have muslim roots.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-Close door secret behind the scenes deals that he said would never happen in an Obama administration. Remember everything was going to be on C-Span?

The realities of office he didn’t anticipate[/quote]

One of two reasons on this one: The first is as you say he just didn’t anticipate the details of his executive position. That means he was too inexperienced for the job, as I’ve said many times. The second reason is that he never intended to run his administration that way and basically lied and got away with it. Either way, he’s not in good shape on this one.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-Multi billion dollar stimulus package that did absolutely nothing.

That’s a really dumb thing to say. I guess everyone in the CBO is a lefty marxist.[/quote]

I’m not counting the jobs that the administration say they’ve saved. After all who really knows? But if you think 10% unemployment is a good thing (and really it’s more like 17%) then I have some swamp land in Florida I’d like to sell you. The stimulus was (and is) a loser.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-Recently openly claiming to political supporters that “we must punish our enemies” meaning the republican party. Not a good way to unify the nation.

Punish people if they they poorly represented their constituents. What’s the problem?[/quote]

The problem is that at some point you have to actually become a leader and stop being a community organizer when you become President of the United States. Even Obama has backed away from his comments calling them a very poor choice of words. He slipped and said what was in his heart.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-Unemployment at 10% (greater if you consider the people who are still jobless but not eligible for unemployment)

Can’t really argue here. shit sucks. However there is a large contingent of economists that say it would be a heck of a lot worse with no stimulus.[/quote]

And an equally large contingent of economists that say the stimulus may have actually harmed the long term recovery.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-Pushing the single most unpopular bill down the throats of the American people (health care)

Really sucks that I can still be on my parents insurance as a student till I’m 26 and that ~30 million people will get health care once it’s in full effect.[/quote]

I can understand your glee, I’d probably feel the same way. No one ever complains when they’re handed a free gift. You get free health care - OH BOY. But in reality nothing is free, all it does is pick the pocket of someone (like me) who actually works for a living and gives it to someone like you who has yet to actually work for a living. And others who are much older than you and have given up trying to work for a living and suck on the government tit on a regular basis. When you get out of school and actually make some money, and you will you’re a smart guy, you won’t like the government taking half of your paycheck so that those who are not working can benefit from the sweat of your brow. I want to call it socialism but rather than getting into that argument let’s just say it’s not capitalism at it’s finest. But this is Obama’s intent. Also, the health care bill was so large that no one even read it. A bill being passed without any of the law makers even reading it? A sharp guy like you cannot think that’s a good idea.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-Raising the national debt to 13.4 billion dollars. (Wha boo hoo Bush totalled greater numbers than that -Yes but it took him 8 years. At this rate Obama will pass him in about 3 1/2)

Pretty sure the final budget Bush proposed was about 1.4 trillion in the red while the first one Obama proposed was about 1.2 trillion in the red.[/quote]

Check your numbers my friend. Obama has spent more money in the scant months that he’s been President than any other President in history. I’m thankful at this point that it all ends on January 1, 2011 as the republicans will surely take back at least the House (if christmas comes early the senate as well). By the way I am no GW Bush fan - he betrayed his conservative label. Those of us who have followed this stuff since Ronald Reagan was President know what a good conservative looks like and GW was far, far from that. At least we knew what Obama was going to do as he is a big spending lefty. But Bush, he surprised us. Not to digress but I think the Tea Party actually had its roots in the remaining years of the Bush administration. It took a good ole’ lefty like Obama to cause the Tea Party to grow as it has.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-Giving a deadline on when to leave Iraq thus bolstering our enemies position. Since when do you tell your enemies what your next military move will be?

The “surprise we’re gone” probably would’ve worked perfectly.[/quote]

Better than telling your enemy when you’re leaving. There is not one General that I am aware of who thought it was a good idea to share this with our enemies. That was a straight political move on Obama’s part. I don’t have to tell you what mixing too much politics with war does. I’m sure you’ve studied the Vietnam war and why we lost. It was mostly because of politics.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-Generally bringing Chicago style politics to the nations capitol.

Generally a vague statement.

[/quote]

It encompasses what Obama is all about. He said it best: punish your enemies. The rest of course is reward your friends. When you run things like this you keep talent out. When you try to remove certain news organizations and you never compromise, in short, you come off as mean spirited and become an ineffective leader. And that’s exactly the way Obama is looking.

28

[quote]siouxperman wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I was going to respond to ZEB quote-by-quote, but instead just read siouxperman’s post, because that is exactly how I feel (on most issues mentioned).

But seriously, bowing to leaders? “Really?” indeed. Because this is such a huge issue and America is now everyone’s bitch because of it. Please. Let’s focus on the big issues, please, not every little fact you can look up on the internet or remember.[/quote]

If you do not see how demonstrating weakness and subservience is harmful then you have much to learn about life. [/quote]

If you don’t see how trying to be respectful (even if it was a bit misguided) is different than demonstrating “weakness and subservience” then you have much to learn about life.[/quote]

The people he bowed to take bowing as a sign of submission. not respect. There are white house rules on ettiquite, and bowing is not one of them. Yes I know i spelled ettiquite wrong, so there, I made fun of me, save all of us the English lesson and stick to the debate.

29

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

  1. The decision to try terrorists in civil court in New York. Good Lord.[/quote]

Thank you TB how could I have not mentioned that. Only someone very naive would even think such a thought.

30

yeah and Bush Sr broke etiquette by puking on a dignitary and Bush Jr broke etiquette by trying give Herr Chancellor a backrub and Nixon bowed to Hirohito, etc. Get a life people

31

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I was going to respond to ZEB quote-by-quote, but instead just read siouxperman’s post, because that is exactly how I feel (on most issues mentioned).

But seriously, bowing to leaders? “Really?” indeed. Because this is such a huge issue and America is now everyone’s bitch because of it. Please. Let’s focus on the big issues, please, not every little fact you can look up on the internet or remember.[/quote]

In the geopolitical world in which we live this was the wrong message to send. It was a big deal, a very big deal! Some government leaders try to ferret out the most subtle of nuances in order to help make their next move. Bowing to world leaders was a horrible message to send, but in this one rare instance he knew what he was doing that’s the part that scares me most.

32

Oh and here in America we don’t go around holding hands with other dudes unless you are 8 and it’s is your father and your are crossing the street. Bush did that plenty with the Arab leaders. Huffing and puffing as if Obama was the first to do something along the lines is not only wrong but really makes you seem like a brainwashed fool.

33

[quote]storey420 wrote:
Oh and here in America we don’t go around holding hands with other dudes unless you are 8 and it’s is your father and your are crossing the street. Bush did that plenty with the Arab leaders. Huffing and puffing as if Obama was the first to do something along the lines is not only wrong but really makes you seem like a brainwashed fool.[/quote]

No, I have a problem with a pres kissing and holding the hand of a Suadi prince also. No one said Obama was the first one to do something like this, he is just who the thread is about. Jumping tp conclusions also makes one look foolish.

34

[quote]SUPER-T wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:
Oh and here in America we don’t go around holding hands with other dudes unless you are 8 and it’s is your father and your are crossing the street. Bush did that plenty with the Arab leaders. Huffing and puffing as if Obama was the first to do something along the lines is not only wrong but really makes you seem like a brainwashed fool.[/quote]

No, I have a problem with a pres kissing and holding the hand of a Suadi prince also. No one said Obama was the first one to do something like this, he is just who the thread is about. Jumping tp conclusions also makes one look foolish.[/quote]

Apparently you missed this quote from ZEB a couple of posts above this “Well, until Obama became President now apparently we bow.”

I repeat Bush bowed, Nixon bowed, Clinton technically bowed. I agree jumping to conclusions makes one look foolish my point exactly.

35

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I was going to respond to ZEB quote-by-quote, but instead just read siouxperman’s post, because that is exactly how I feel (on most issues mentioned).

But seriously, bowing to leaders? “Really?” indeed. Because this is such a huge issue and America is now everyone’s bitch because of it. Please. Let’s focus on the big issues, please, not every little fact you can look up on the internet or remember.[/quote]

If you do not see how demonstrating weakness and subservience is harmful then you have much to learn about life. [/quote]
You seriously think 10 years from now, when people are rating President Obama’s 4 (or 8) years, they will bring up him bowing?

Please dude, get real. And I brought up issues affecting US, the American people. How the fuck did him bowing have any effect on us? ZERO, and don’t give me that “well it did indirectly blah blah blah” BS.

36

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

Obama decided to leave the initiative with Congress instead of grabbing it up himself…[/quote]

Well, mechanically, he had to - Congress is in charge of passing bills. Obama certainly could have influenced the process (demanding discipline, etc.), but he could never “grab it up”. His error came in giving to Pelosi and backing every Pelosi play, which was a freakshow of terrible proportions.

And recall that some Democrats voted against it. And the year of “back and forth” - which you imply was a bit of an inconvenience - was the most important aspect of democracy at work dealing with a most un-democratic Democratic majority.

Wow.
[/quote]
Good points, tbolt. Thank you for explaining.

I don’t get your “wow” though.

37

Obama’s biggest mistake was not to tear the Republicans a new one when he came into power.

He should have pointed out that their policies were never any good, that they presided over the whole debacle and that the economy had been running of the fumes of credit and financial fucking around for too long. That Republicans had sold the country to China and India. With that he could have gathered some steam and put his policies in place.

He should have put a bigger stimulus package together and simultaneously slapped a tariff on China until they agreed to let their currency appreciate. He should also have put the bankers to rights by now.

The stimulus package should have been much bigger. I don’t think it was all about appeasing Republicans and uneasy voters either as austerity policies have been in vogue recently in many countries, but being fashionable doesn’t mean it was right. The current conditions with interest rates at near enough zero and banks just hoarding cash in central bank reserves prevents fiscal stimulus from driving up interest rates. So the argument about stimulus crowding out private investment doesn’t hold water. Stimulus would not do anything to damage USA’s credit worthiness either, that argument is just a joke.

The reason why stimulus is considered a bad policy by some has nothing to do with economics. It has everything to do with ideology, poor reasoning (extending logic you’d use in a business or a household to the level of the entire economy) and moral judgements.

Anyway it’s all academic now as he looks like a lame duck and Republican ideology isn’t going to fix the mess. So tell me if if the government is refusing to spend, businesses wont spend, households cant spend and foreign countries refuse to buy American who is going to be the one to get the economy going?

38

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[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Obama still has a bunch of stuff he vowed to fix[/quote]

Really? You’re playing this card? As if he was supposed to wave his negro-muslim-kenyan-pixie wand and have everything done at once?

Right.[/quote]
You are right in the sense that these things take time, I didn’t choose my words correctly. However, Obama wanted health care done in the spring of 2009. He got it done in the summer of 2010 for a number of reasons. There was pretty much a year of health care this, health care that on the news. If he executed the health care plan properly, it could have been done a lot sooner, and he could have focused on these other issues.[/quote]

You’re kidding right?

39

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Obama still has a bunch of stuff he vowed to fix[/quote]

Really? You’re playing this card? As if he was supposed to wave his negro-muslim-kenyan-pixie wand and have everything done at once?

Right.[/quote]
You are right in the sense that these things take time, I didn’t choose my words correctly. However, Obama wanted health care done in the spring of 2009. He got it done in the summer of 2010 for a number of reasons. There was pretty much a year of health care this, health care that on the news. If he executed the health care plan properly, it could have been done a lot sooner, and he could have focused on these other issues.[/quote]

You’re kidding right?[/quote]

Did the left not want to use tax payer money to fund abortions? It looks like they do want to kill people with tax money, but instead of killing terrorists that want to kill us, they want to kill a helpless baby.

40

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
I was going to respond to ZEB quote-by-quote, but instead just read siouxperman’s post, because that is exactly how I feel (on most issues mentioned).

But seriously, bowing to leaders? “Really?” indeed. Because this is such a huge issue and America is now everyone’s bitch because of it. Please. Let’s focus on the big issues, please, not every little fact you can look up on the internet or remember.[/quote]

If you do not see how demonstrating weakness and subservience is harmful then you have much to learn about life. [/quote]
You seriously think 10 years from now, when people are rating President Obama’s 4 (or 8) years, they will bring up him bowing?

Please dude, get real. And I brought up issues affecting US, the American people. How the fuck did him bowing have any effect on us? ZERO, and don’t give me that “well it did indirectly blah blah blah” BS.[/quote]

For the last time it’s not about the bow directly it’s what it represents and how other world leaders from other cultures view it. Try to reach beyond what you’re personally familiar with and understand this one simple point. Everything at that level is viewed under a micorscope. It’s not like you greeting your friend from Japan and bowing when you see him.