Thunderbolt rocks!! Loved the ice cream cone thing most of all!!
I don’t think Thunderbolt has kids. He’s able to elucidate way to goodly.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
RageInspired wrote:
It would seem like black history month only promotes racism… Sorry Prof X but Sloth is pretty much on his game. Maybe you live in a shitty area but where I’m from there isn’t any different treatment of persons. The only exception is the occasional shithead that walks who intentionally acts like a dick and over complicates things for their own low level humor enjoyment.
Of coarse theres a race check box… quota’s…
And seriously Obama is a politician and is only using his black heritage to gain votes. The man’s family doesn’t even have any ties to slavery… which unfortunatly is all anybody cares to talk about.
Wow. You sure did miss the point. When was this about treating people differently? This is about labeling people you don’t know based on appearance. Most of you do this all day long like most humans do. You don’t stop to ask the cab driver who looks black whether he is actually half asian. If you were to describe him to friends, you would call him like he appeared to you. Anyone crazy enough to lie about that needs to be hospitalized.[/quote]
what about fat people?
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
deuce2 wrote:
I think many of you who’ve never had to live a day with black (brown, khaki, mocha or whatever) skin are going to have a terribly difficult time understanding this. The Black experience is not something based solely on your ancestral roots. It’s also based in what you have to face on a day to day basis. I’m willing to bet Obama has been called and treated black his entire life regardless of who his parents are or where they’re from.
I’m half asian but I promise you I’ve never been called the “asian guy”…I look black, even after people meet my asian mother they still describe me as black. Now, 99% of the time I think being black is no different from being white…but then there’s that other 1%.
I deal with clients all over the country and from time to time I run into those who on the phone think I’m the best thing since sliced bread. They fly in, come to our building, speak with my secretary who gladly walks them into my office and BAM…there’s a black guy sitting at what they knew was a white guys desk. They clam up, get all nervous and you can immediately tell they’re uncomfortable. This doesn’t bother me at all but to tell me it doesn’t happen is just saying you’ve never experienced it because you’re not black. Ask any black professional in the corporate world and I’d be willing to bet they’ve had a similar experience.
Granted, being black today is not what it was the fifties but there are still challenges involved, even for a “khaki” black man like Obama, that white men are rarely subject to.
Thanks for the thoughtful post, and here is a reply.
If there be a Black Experience, the point was that Obama likely has experienced very little of it. Look at his life history, look at his resume. That isn’t much of an issue, except for the fact that others with a lack of experience “walking in a black man’s shoes” are disqualified from opining on the matter of racism, affirmative action, etc., and the presumption of good faith is extinguished because others “don’t know what it’s like”.
Fair enough. But the point is, Obama doesn’t know what it’s like either. That much is fairly clear - from living in multiracial Hawaii and Indonesia, going to private school, going to Ivy League university, Obama’s experience doesn’t lend itself to the “Black Experience”, as even you describe it.
And yet, Obama - despite his experience growing up being incongruent with the “Black Experience” - is never chided as “not walking in a black man’s shoes”, and in fact, is now a form of racial champion for American blacks. That doesn’t add up, not based on any standard of mine, but based on the standard of those who think views not based on enough “Black Experience” are disqualified.
One note worth mentioning - you spoke of people having “reactions” to meeting you, not expecting you to be black. That is unfortunate. But we must do the hard work of distinguishing human “quirks” from bona fide racism, else we will never be anything but disappointed.
To clarify the point - do any of the awkward reactions cause you harm? If all it amounts to is the occasional awkward meeting or askance look, but it isn’t affecting your ability to live, work, or play, then that is about the best we can hope for. We’ll never live in a world where that doesn’t occur, and it will occur for many reasons outside of race as well - example, wear a really nice suit on the square of my small hometown, and you will get disapproving looks. These looks could be based on race, class, culture, sex - all kinds of things human beings have prejudices about. We can’t cure that.
What we need to cure is racism that causes legitimate harm. If a black man becomes a Harvard-trained lawyer, makes $2 million a year at a NYC firm, lives in a $5 million dollar home in Connecticut, but gets weird or disapproving looks from time to time, again, that is a shame, but does it amount to racism? If so, we’ve taken our eye off the ball and are occupying ourselves with silly pursuits when larger, real problems loom.
Merely complaining that someone “looked at you funny” is decent dinner table conversation, but it isn’t racism, not that we can much deal with. If it causes you harm - real harm, not just having your feelings hurt or causing you puzzlement at their ignorance - then it becomes a real issue.
To your example, if a black man has made into the “corporate world”, that is a testament racism didn’t hold him back, even if some folks are surprised to see him there.
You also say that 99% of the experience is the same as whites - if true, and we only see some form of racism 1% of the time, that actually sounds pretty good considering we are dealing with human beings. That doesn’t mean we should be idle about the 1% - but it means pretending the 1% defines the “Black Experience” is a frivolous and dishonest exercise. I am not suggesting you are doing this, but far too many are, and they continue to do so because they have a vested interest in perpetuating the victim mentality because it suits personal needs. I have zero tolerance for that idiocy, for the main reason is that it hurts the minorities it proclaims it is trying to help.
In no way should you construe my comments as suggesting racism doesn’t exist or need not be addressed. Racism, and prejudice generally, is alive and well, and we should continue to address it, confront it, and attempt to improve. But, sadly, we are getting distracted by the noisy wall of nonsense.
As for your experience, I hope you will share more. Your input is valued. It is far better than the usual solipsistic nonsense Professor X offers up, as Professor X would cry “racist!!!” if he saw someone choose vanilla over chocolate when selecting an ice cream cone.
Thanks for your time.[/quote]
First off, let me say, this was a great reply. I was tempted to let you have this round since I agree with several of the arguments you put forth.
I agree completely that looks alone don’t amount to much. The “racism” tends to come out once people are no longer in your presence. In the particular instance I referenced, the clients sole purpose in coming to the office was to sign with our firm, this having been agreed on several weeks in prior. He spent no more than five minutes in my office when he realized he had and an “urgent meeting”. Our VP contacted me the next morning to inform me the client wanted to “rethink” our arrangement. Having dealt with this before a plan of action was already in place. I flew one of the junior associates working for me up to the client. I gave the associate detailed instructions which included him informing the client he’d be taking over the account…Needless to say the client signed that afternoon.
I still handle the account, I just run all communication through the junior associate.
Now maybe, just maybe, it has nothing to do with race. Maybe he didn’t like my MAUVE tie…maybe it was the fact that I was wearing a GRAY suit while he likes BLUE. Maybe it was the view from my office or possibly the RED dress my seretary was wearing. Then again, maybe, just maybe, it was my BROWN skin he disliked.
As to Obama’s lack of “the black experience” I think your view is slightly flawed. You point to the fact that he went to private grade schools and ivy league universities which I agree is not typical for black people (or any other people for that matter). The way I see it, he has likely experienced more racism than most black men. I’d venture to say he was one of few blacks in his private school and I’m sure he was one of a very few blacks attending Harvard at that time. His entire life he’s been in the minority - even in his own home as a child - how many of us can say that! I think you see where I’m going with this.
Think about it and let me know what you come up with, I’m sure it’ll be interesting as always. Hopefully we can bring down a small piece of that noisy wall with this discussion.
[quote]deuce2 wrote:
As to Obama’s lack of “the black experience” I think your view is slightly flawed. You point to the fact that he went to private grade schools and ivy league universities which I agree is not typical for black people (or any other people for that matter). The way I see it, he has likely experienced more racism than most black men. I’d venture to say he was one of few blacks in his private school and I’m sure he was one of a very few blacks attending Harvard at that time. His entire life he’s been in the minority - even in his own home as a child - how many of us can say that! I think you see where I’m going with this.
Think about it and let me know what you come up with, I’m sure it’ll be interesting as always. Hopefully we can bring down a small piece of that noisy wall with this discussion.
[/quote]
Well said. I was the only black man in my class in Dental school. To act as if this meant I saw less racism is laughable. I grew up in a mostly white church. I have already mentioned some of the instances that occurred in other threads. It is a false belief like no other that not being raised like a typical black kid means you see less racism. Being the only minority in many situations meant I was the very focus of it…including my profession now.
Why would anyone think this means Obama was seperated MORE from it?
You give others way more credit than I do.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
If there be a Black Experience, the point was that Obama likely has experienced very little of it. Look at his life history, look at his resume. That isn’t much of an issue, except for the fact that others with a lack of experience “walking in a black man’s shoes” are disqualified from opining on the matter of racism, affirmative action, etc., and the presumption of good faith is extinguished because others “don’t know what it’s like”.
Fair enough. But the point is, Obama doesn’t know what it’s like either. That much is fairly clear - from living in multiracial Hawaii and Indonesia, going to private school, going to Ivy League university, Obama’s experience doesn’t lend itself to the “Black Experience”, as even you describe it.
[/quote]
That is just great. Now we have white guys using the “uncle tom” excuses just like old school blacks? WTF!
So let me get this straight, you, as a white guy, are saying that Obama isn’t black enough?
That whole line of thinking is ass backwards for blacks to say and it’s just retarded for whites to say. Blacks do not have to meet a certain level or resistance in life to be able to claim they are black. Just like whites do not all have it easy with no resistance.
These are racial stereotypes you are repeating that are bullshit coming from any race.
89% of black people in Pennsylvania voted for Obama. It seems very likely that they did so because of his color. They accept him as being black and are ignorant enough to vote for him because of skin color.
Is it any wonder that people working behind the scenes have made elections irrelevent? When people are stupid enough to vote based on race, gender, orientation, and all other such superflous ideas, they deserve to be manipulated.
When someone proudly announces they are, after many years, going to vote for the first time because ‘one of US is running’, they deserve exactly what they get.
This thread is becoming very laughable.
If people originated in africa, then doesnt that make all of us Americans all African Americans? Even Mexicans.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
This thread is becoming very laughable. [/quote]
You could see that from the beginning. If deuce hadn’t responded again, I would have left it alone. Clueless isn’t just a weakass 90’s movie.
[quote]Scrotus wrote:
If people originated in africa, then doesnt that make all of us Americans all African Americans? Even Mexicans.[/quote]
Hermano acepto!
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
This thread is becoming very laughable.
You could see that from the beginning. If deuce hadn’t responded again, I would have left it alone. Clueless isn’t just a weakass 90’s movie.[/quote]
Good responses he had,too. Funny that we are all from Texas…if thats a correlation that should be noted.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
That is just great. Now we have white guys using the “uncle tom” excuses just like old school blacks? WTF!
So let me get this straight, you, as a white guy, are saying that Obama isn’t black enough?
That whole line of thinking is ass backwards for blacks to say and it’s just retarded for whites to say. Blacks do not have to meet a certain level or resistance in life to be able to claim they are black. Just like whites do not all have it easy with no resistance.
These are racial stereotypes you are repeating that are bullshit coming from any race.[/quote]
Had you read my posts in their entirety, you’d know the above is completely false - as I noted to Deuce2, it’s not my standard I am using. I have no standard to measure Obama versus the Black Experience, and I couldn’t care less about such racial thresholds.
My point was to point out that those who employ such a standard to disqualify critics who don’t have enough “Black Experience” should likely disqualify Obama for the same reasons, even though his skin happens not to be white. They don’t, of course, and that is what I was exploring: Obama has lived a life of privilege that belies all the qualifications of growing up with the obstacles of oppression - i.e., real harm, not perceived slights or the hurting of feelings only - and yet he is skipped over.
An intelligent discussion can be had on why this is, assuming you can get past the reactionary calls of bad faith - which you are guilty of in your post above.
I have no idea if Obama is “black enough”, nor do I care - such a manufactured threshold is holding us back in this Great Discussion on Race to begin with. It’s not my rule, but highlighting where this rule is being applied inconsistently could be a good discussion - well, could be.
[quote]deuce2 wrote:
First off, let me say, this was a great reply. I was tempted to let you have this round since I agree with several of the arguments you put forth.
I agree completely that looks alone don’t amount to much. The “racism” tends to come out once people are no longer in your presence. In the particular instance I referenced, the clients sole purpose in coming to the office was to sign with our firm, this having been agreed on several weeks in prior. He spent no more than five minutes in my office when he realized he had and an “urgent meeting”. Our VP contacted me the next morning to inform me the client wanted to “rethink” our arrangement. Having dealt with this before a plan of action was already in place. I flew one of the junior associates working for me up to the client. I gave the associate detailed instructions which included him informing the client he’d be taking over the account…Needless to say the client signed that afternoon.
I still handle the account, I just run all communication through the junior associate.
Now maybe, just maybe, it has nothing to do with race. Maybe he didn’t like my MAUVE tie…maybe it was the fact that I was wearing a GRAY suit while he likes BLUE. Maybe it was the view from my office or possibly the RED dress my seretary was wearing. Then again, maybe, just maybe, it was my BROWN skin he disliked.[/quote]
C’mon, clearly it was the mauve tie. Who wears that color? :>
Kidding aside, what you described sounds like the guy is a racist. Sounds like he has some problem with you, and it likely is your ethnicity.
But does this define your experience? We are back to the beginning. People have tons of examples like your story - but are these stories tangential to an experience that is largely not defined by discrimination?
You have said that 99% of your experience is “normal” - as I said earlier, if true, that is probably about as good as it gets.
I have similar isolated experiences being picked last in pickup basketball games because I was white (and that isn’t based on speculation, the guys selecting teams had the discussion right in front of me). But I have no brief about being discriminated against, I don’t spend inordinate amounts of time on the internet proclaiming my “victim” status - because my experience is not defined by small, discriminatory incidents that really had very little impact on my life, work, or play.
Racism of that nature exists, but focusing on it distracts from the racism that actually causes measurable harm. Those who focus on it do so because it suits their personal needs - attention, etc.
I don’t belittle your experiences in the corporate world - if someone is not doing business with you because of your ethnicity, those are profits walking out the door - but by your own admission, that doesn’t define your experiences. If that is wrong, and your business is truly hurting because of customers walking away based on discriminatory reasons, please feel free to share those experiences - I don’t want to put words in your mouth.
I don’t quite see how Obama experienced “more racism” than others. Likely not in Hawaii, and likely not in his forays into higher education - certainly not at Harvard during the era he was there.
Again, we are back to racism that caused some kind of harm - Obama has had largely a magic carpet ride into the corporate world (which he turned down). If someone looked at him funny, that stinks, I agree - but that doesn’t amount to tangible racism. If it does, as I said before, we will be nothing but disappointed, because we can’t cure that, and it operates in areas other than race.
To be clearer, I have no idea if Obama has suffered racism or not, I can only speculate - what I refuse to do is assume he has solely on the basis of his skin color. I won’t presume racism until proven otherwise - especially with someone who has lived such a privileged life.
Obama, in many ways, is whatever people want him to be. I’d rather get away from that and measure him exactly as he is.
This is key, and I really appreciate your perspective. We may disagree on key points, but you present your case in good faith looking for a dialogue, and in matters of race around here, we don’t get that very often.
“Its a Black Thing…you (whitey) wouldn’t Understand.”
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I grew up in a mostly white church.
Pardon the sidetrack (and the personal question), but I believe you’ve written that your father was a preacher. Of a mostly white church?
Is that unusual?[/quote]
My dad was a preacher of a Baptist church until I was 7 years old. His leading pastor (the true Rev of the church whose name was on the front) began preaching in a way that my parents told me reminded them of a cult…so they left. After that, until I was in junior high school, we went to a mostly White Pentecostal church and my dad would simply continue Bible study classes out of our house. He stopped doing that before I hit high school but we continued going to the same church…which they still go to today. My parents still know the Bible better than anyone I’ve known. I am nowhere near as mindful on the entire book as they are. They’ve spent their whole lives studying it and researching it. If they liked computers at all (enough to even care about discussion forums), they would dominate any discussions concerning it.
Now you know.
I quit going to that church when I graduated high school because of college and also because, as my parents know, I never forgot some of that stuff that was directed at me by some of those kids I partially grew up with based on nothing but skin color. Being the only minority kid in a room full of white kids is quite the experience, especially in South Texas. They have no filter for what they think…unlike their parents.
That is also why the idea that Obama experienced LESS racism because he went to mostly white institutions is laughable. Some of you refuse to accept what we experience as reality. That must take a whole new level of arrogance.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Being the only minority kid in a room full of white kids is quite the experience, especially in South Texas. They have no filter for what they think…unlike their parents.[/quote]
Basing your opinion of white adults upon how kids treated you?
If I said that I grew up in a mostly black neighborhood and judged black adults by how the kids treated me, you’d call me a racist and a psychopath. Of course, you do already so, what the hey…
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Being the only minority kid in a room full of white kids is quite the experience, especially in South Texas. They have no filter for what they think…unlike their parents.
Basing your opinion of white adults upon how kids treated you?
If I said that I grew up in a mostly black neighborhood and judged black adults by how the kids treated me, you’d call me a racist and a psychopath. Of course, you do already so, what the hey…
[/quote]
Your opinion matters little to me, but I will answer this one because those further up the ladder of respect might actually hold the same belief.
When certain comments are stated by kids over the age of 12, it isn’t a huge leap to consider that many of these same beliefs are held by their parents. We aren’t talking about toddlers here. Kids back then (80’s and early 90’s) were more than likely more mindful than what you may remember from your own childhood decades before. Kids haven’t been that clueless and stupid for quite a while.
It also wasn’t everyone as most of the people there treated us with the same respect as everyone else. However, for me, it was enough.
Obama’s private high school in Hawaii was multi-ethnic.
In that, it was reflective of Hawaii.
Hawaii has a very different demography than other states, and I would think someone growing up there would have had a unique experience: