[quote]Sloth wrote:
deuce2 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Them big bad evil “white” americans!
do you think racism exits at all in this country?
and more often than not they’re small petty men, not big, bad or evil.
Of course racism exists. It will always exist. So will paranoia of it.[/quote]
since we can agree that it exists, would you also agree that racism affects some groups of people more than others?
[quote]deuce2 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
deuce2 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Them big bad evil “white” americans!
do you think racism exits at all in this country?
and more often than not they’re small petty men, not big, bad or evil.
Of course racism exists. It will always exist. So will paranoia of it.
since we can agree that it exists, would you also agree that racism affects some groups of people more than others?
[/quote]
That’s never been disputed. When one population is bigger than the other, racism isn’t going to be experienced at the same frequency. Though if we researched hate crime statistics, for instance, I think many would be surprised by the numbers. And, do we count the racist double standards? Such as, “don’t call me ‘black’ even if I self identify as a black man…you ‘white’ people.” Sorry, I’ve experienced reverse discrimination (to the point of violence) and racial double standards. I haven’t lived your life, but guess what, you haven’t lived mine either. So, you’ll have to excuse me if I keep this a debate, instead of sitting back nodding along to the lecture.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Them big bad evil “white” americans!
This is funny. You just had someone of mixed racial background just log on in this thread and confirm what we have written, but your response is STILL to act as if we don’t know what we are talking about.
I am not sure there is a word for this.
Denial?
Ignorance?
Ingorance of what?
The word was “ignorance”, and if you have to ask, you have a severe case of it.
Does anyone else love it when a bigot lectures people about racial issues?
[/quote]
“Its a Black Thing…You Wouldn’t Understand”
— T-shirt slogan
I couldn’t find an image on Google. Anyone got one? Prof X?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Them big bad evil “white” americans!
This is funny. You just had someone of mixed racial background just log on in this thread and confirm what we have written, but your response is STILL to act as if we don’t know what we are talking about.
I am not sure there is a word for this.
Denial?
Ignorance?
Ingorance of what?
The word was “ignorance”, and if you have to ask, you have a severe case of it.
Does anyone else love it when a bigot lectures people about racial issues?
Laughable. I’m a bigot for acknowledging that we still deal with racism today that outweighs that of most social groups?
Please, find the “bigoted” posts that you claim have been written.
Several people have now written almost exactly what I have so why single me out as if I am saying something different than they are?[/quote]
Because you’re the guy who speaks as a black American, defends black history and black pride, yet doesn’t want to be labelled black, and you want ‘white’ americans to know it.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Steel Nation wrote:
Professor X wrote:
…and this point was answered early on, even though many of you seemed to not be able to comprehend the response at the time. It doesn’t matter if his background doesn’t directly involve slavery. By appearance alone, he has had to deal with every single issue that every other Black male has in this country. He is not thought of as ONLY black. However, every black person in this country knows that he has been treated just like a black man just like the rest of us. That was WHY I mentioned my own “racial background”.
Why did it take this many pages to get us back to the beginning? Honestly, why do so many of YOU have such a hard time understanding this?
I have a hard time understanding because I’m not in your shoes. I haven’t experienced what you have. I think I understand your point now, but I can’t really relate. I guess that’s what my friends mean when they say “you wouldn’t understand.”
If you didn’t understand, why didn’t you “and company” shut up and listen from the beginning? Because you all thought I didn’t know what I was talking about?
It took 4 pages for you to finally listen to what was mentioned on the FIRST page?
I think the better question you should ask yourself is why so many of you think your perception is superior to that of many black people in this country.[/quote]
I think the better question is why you think your perception is the only one with any validity out there. I (and others) have shut up and listened to the point where it sounds like an old woman nagging. I don’t deny you don’t know what your talking about, its YOUR perception. I just don’t share every nuance of it with you. You don’t bother to consider any part of any one else’s perception…seemingly you just bloviate, (thanks for the good word Thunderbolt.) on and on with the same tired message. How is that helping? I don’t deny what happened in the past, it was an attrocity. Me and mine were not part of it. There are still people out there who’s opinions can’t be changed, always will be. Not everyone wants to, cares to, or needs to share your perception and experience in order to be educated and to understand. Frankly most of us are too busy dealing with life on a daily basis, you know fuel prices, bills, kids and that sort of thing to honestly worry about it that much. I don’t tolerate it in my home and I don’t tolerate it in people I deal with. That’s all I have control over and it cuts more than one way. I vote with my time and my money. People are judged in groups and grouped over and over again according to many criteria, actions, skin color, income level…etc. Why don’t we try taking the focus of the color for a while, cause all this focus on it doesn’t seem to be helping. All it does it irritate. But this in only MY perception.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Them big bad evil “white” americans!
This is funny. You just had someone of mixed racial background just log on in this thread and confirm what we have written, but your response is STILL to act as if we don’t know what we are talking about.
I am not sure there is a word for this.
Denial?
Ignorance?
Ingorance of what?
The word was “ignorance”, and if you have to ask, you have a severe case of it.
Does anyone else love it when a bigot lectures people about racial issues?
Laughable. I’m a bigot for acknowledging that we still deal with racism today that outweighs that of most social groups?
Please, find the “bigoted” posts that you claim have been written.
Several people have now written almost exactly what I have so why single me out as if I am saying something different than they are?
Because you’re the guy who speaks as a black American, defends black history and black pride, yet doesn’t want to be labelled black, and you want ‘white’ americans to know it. [/quote]
You don’t understand much of anything if you think my message is that I don’t want people calling me a black man.
[quote]btm62 wrote:
I think the better question is why you think your perception is the only one with any validity out there. [/quote]
Holy bullshit. So you’ve missed Big Boss’ and Deuce’s posts in this thread?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I think the better question you should ask yourself is why so many of you think your perception is superior to that of many black people in this country.[/quote]
I think everyone thinks that their opinion or perception is right, otherwise they wouldn’t hold to it. This isn’t really a white/black thing. It’s universal.
I don’t really have an opinion on racial issues because I don’t really know too much about the subject, which is why I asked the question in the first place. Pure curiosity.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
btm62 wrote:
I think the better question is why you think your perception is the only one with any validity out there.
Holy bullshit. So you’ve missed Big Boss’ and Deuce’s posts in this thread?
[/quote]
What does that question have to do with anything?
[quote]btm62 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
btm62 wrote:
I think the better question is why you think your perception is the only one with any validity out there.
Holy bullshit. So you’ve missed Big Boss’ and Deuce’s posts in this thread?
What does that question have to do with anything?
[/quote]
A whole lot. If the people who are perceived as black are all telling you one thing, why would you still assume none of us know what we are talking about?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
btm62 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
btm62 wrote:
I think the better question is why you think your perception is the only one with any validity out there.
Holy bullshit. So you’ve missed Big Boss’ and Deuce’s posts in this thread?
What does that question have to do with anything?
A whole lot. If the people who are perceived as black are all telling you one thing, why would you still assume none of us know what we are talking about?[/quote]
I am not saying that the 3 of you are wrong or mistaken. I’m saying there is more than one side to the issue and expressing how I feel about it. (I don’t believe that my perception is unique either.) I meant it very sincerely when I wrote about how frustrating the issue can be from both sides. I would enjoy you thinking about the rest of the post and giving me your ideas. I’m not here trying to get your goat or irritate you.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
deuce2 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
deuce2 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Them big bad evil “white” americans!
do you think racism exits at all in this country?
and more often than not they’re small petty men, not big, bad or evil.
Of course racism exists. It will always exist. So will paranoia of it.
since we can agree that it exists, would you also agree that racism affects some groups of people more than others?
That’s never been disputed. When one population is bigger than the other, racism isn’t going to be experienced at the same frequency. Though if we researched hate crime statistics, for instance, I think many would be surprised by the numbers. And, do we count the racist double standards? Such as, “don’t call me ‘black’ even if I self identify as a black man…you ‘white’ people.” Sorry, I’ve experienced reverse discrimination (to the point of violence) and racial double standards. I haven’t lived your life, but guess what, you haven’t lived mine either. So, you’ll have to excuse me if I keep this a debate, instead of sitting back nodding along to the lecture.
[/quote]
unfortunately I think you have me confused with someone else. I’ve never stated I have a problem with someone calling me black, it’s one of the many ways I can be described. I’ve also never claimed black men are the only ones who experience racism because this is far from the truth. What I will say is that men perceived as black, whether they call themselves that or not, experience more racism than other people in this country.
now let me say this…I know some black men who will beat you to within an inch of your life for calling them the “N” word. Saying something like “you know, the “N” who works in accounting” will assure you a first class beatdown but not one of them would think twice if you described them as “the black guy who works in accounting” or something similar.
Just so you know, I prefer you keep this a debate instead of sitting back nodding along. Learning what others lives and experiences have taught them gives me insight into things I couldn’t possibly know on my own. I just hope people would be willing see things from a perspective that’s outside their comfort zone.
Jason Kidd (5), standing next to Vince Carter (15).
After getting laughed at for answering “Jason Kidd” when I was once asked “Who’s the best white American in the NBA?”, I gave up trying to sort out ethnicities.
I’m darker than Kidd is, but he’s “black” and I’m “white”. Go figure.
[quote]deuce2 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
deuce2 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
deuce2 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Them big bad evil “white” americans!
do you think racism exits at all in this country?
and more often than not they’re small petty men, not big, bad or evil.
Of course racism exists. It will always exist. So will paranoia of it.
since we can agree that it exists, would you also agree that racism affects some groups of people more than others?
That’s never been disputed. When one population is bigger than the other, racism isn’t going to be experienced at the same frequency. Though if we researched hate crime statistics, for instance, I think many would be surprised by the numbers. And, do we count the racist double standards? Such as, “don’t call me ‘black’ even if I self identify as a black man…you ‘white’ people.” Sorry, I’ve experienced reverse discrimination (to the point of violence) and racial double standards. I haven’t lived your life, but guess what, you haven’t lived mine either. So, you’ll have to excuse me if I keep this a debate, instead of sitting back nodding along to the lecture.
unfortunately I think you have me confused with someone else. I’ve never stated I have a problem with someone calling me black, it’s one of the many ways I can be described. I’ve also never claimed black men are the only ones who experience racism because this is far from the truth. What I will say is that men perceived as black, whether they call themselves that or not, experience more racism than other people in this country.
now let me say this…I know some black men who will beat you to within an inch of your life for calling them the “N” word. Saying something like “you know, the “N” who works in accounting” will assure you a first class beatdown but not one of them would think twice if you described them as “the black guy who works in accounting” or something similar.
Just so you know, I prefer you keep this a debate instead of sitting back nodding along. Learning what others lives and experiences have taught them gives me insight into things I couldn’t possibly know on my own. I just hope people would be willing see things from a perspective that’s outside their comfort zone.[/quote]
I realize you haven’t said the above about labels. I didn’t mean you specifically. And I believe I do listen to what others have to say. It’s always good to hear from folks such a big boss, who while sharing some common outlooks on the topic (it seems), also has different views from mine. Yet, we remain pretty damned cordial to each other. Maybe some humor here and there, but always on friendly terms. And you. I’ve no complaints about yourself, and our discussion. You didn’t fly off the handle at me, after all.
[quote]deuce2 wrote:
Saying something like “you know, the “N” who works in accounting” will assure you a first class beatdown but not one of them would think twice if you described them as “the black guy who works in accounting” or something similar.
[/quote]
Oh, no doubt. One of the things I said is that most people realize that “he’s the black/white guy in accounting” isn’t supposed to be an actual ethnic/skin tone descriptor. I’ve lived and worked as a minority throughout some pretty significant portions of my life. I’ve been called the “white guy” more times than I can count. No offense intended to me, and none taken. It didn’t bother me that noone stopped to ask me what ethnic nationality I’d prefer to be described as. Or, if I had a better suggestion for describing my skin color. No big deal.
I’d like to find a T-shirt that says ‘Its a Black Thing…you wouldn’t understand.’
Anybody gotta link?
HH,
This?
[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
Jason Kidd (5), standing next to Vince Carter (15).
After getting laughed at for answering “Jason Kidd” when I was once asked “Who’s the best white American in the NBA?”, I gave up trying to sort out ethnicities.
I’m darker than Kidd is, but he’s “black” and I’m “white”. Go figure.[/quote]
That is the entire point. Obama didn’t just wake up one morning and say; “humm, my mom is white and my dad is black, I think I’ll be black today and maybe tomorrow I’ll be white”.
It is the labels that people place on us that make us “whatever” in their eyes. So Obama is not trying to be black for political reasons. He is black because society is telling him he is black.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Them big bad evil “white” americans!
This is funny. You just had someone of mixed racial background just log on in this thread and confirm what we have written, but your response is STILL to act as if we don’t know what we are talking about.
I am not sure there is a word for this.
Denial?
Ignorance?
Ingorance of what?
The word was “ignorance”, and if you have to ask, you have a severe case of it.
Does anyone else love it when a bigot lectures people about racial issues?
“Its a Black Thing…You Wouldn’t Understand”
— T-shirt slogan
I couldn’t find an image on Google. Anyone got one? Prof X?
[/quote]
I think it is a true statement. If you haven’t walked in his shoes you wouldn’t really understand.
[quote]deuce2 wrote:
I think many of you who’ve never had to live a day with black (brown, khaki, mocha or whatever) skin are going to have a terribly difficult time understanding this. The Black experience is not something based solely on your ancestral roots. It’s also based in what you have to face on a day to day basis. I’m willing to bet Obama has been called and treated black his entire life regardless of who his parents are or where they’re from.
I’m half asian but I promise you I’ve never been called the “asian guy”…I look black, even after people meet my asian mother they still describe me as black. Now, 99% of the time I think being black is no different from being white…but then there’s that other 1%.
I deal with clients all over the country and from time to time I run into those who on the phone think I’m the best thing since sliced bread. They fly in, come to our building, speak with my secretary who gladly walks them into my office and BAM…there’s a black guy sitting at what they knew was a white guys desk. They clam up, get all nervous and you can immediately tell they’re uncomfortable. This doesn’t bother me at all but to tell me it doesn’t happen is just saying you’ve never experienced it because you’re not black. Ask any black professional in the corporate world and I’d be willing to bet they’ve had a similar experience.
Granted, being black today is not what it was the fifties but there are still challenges involved, even for a “khaki” black man like Obama, that white men are rarely subject to.[/quote]
Thanks for the thoughtful post, and here is a reply.
If there be a Black Experience, the point was that Obama likely has experienced very little of it. Look at his life history, look at his resume. That isn’t much of an issue, except for the fact that others with a lack of experience “walking in a black man’s shoes” are disqualified from opining on the matter of racism, affirmative action, etc., and the presumption of good faith is extinguished because others “don’t know what it’s like”.
Fair enough. But the point is, Obama doesn’t know what it’s like either. That much is fairly clear - from living in multiracial Hawaii and Indonesia, going to private school, going to Ivy League university, Obama’s experience doesn’t lend itself to the “Black Experience”, as even you describe it.
And yet, Obama - despite his experience growing up being incongruent with the “Black Experience” - is never chided as “not walking in a black man’s shoes”, and in fact, is now a form of racial champion for American blacks. That doesn’t add up, not based on any standard of mine, but based on the standard of those who think views not based on enough “Black Experience” are disqualified.
One note worth mentioning - you spoke of people having “reactions” to meeting you, not expecting you to be black. That is unfortunate. But we must do the hard work of distinguishing human “quirks” from bona fide racism, else we will never be anything but disappointed.
To clarify the point - do any of the awkward reactions cause you harm? If all it amounts to is the occasional awkward meeting or askance look, but it isn’t affecting your ability to live, work, or play, then that is about the best we can hope for. We’ll never live in a world where that doesn’t occur, and it will occur for many reasons outside of race as well - example, wear a really nice suit on the square of my small hometown, and you will get disapproving looks. These looks could be based on race, class, culture, sex - all kinds of things human beings have prejudices about. We can’t cure that.
What we need to cure is racism that causes legitimate harm. If a black man becomes a Harvard-trained lawyer, makes $2 million a year at a NYC firm, lives in a $5 million dollar home in Connecticut, but gets weird or disapproving looks from time to time, again, that is a shame, but does it amount to racism? If so, we’ve taken our eye off the ball and are occupying ourselves with silly pursuits when larger, real problems loom.
Merely complaining that someone “looked at you funny” is decent dinner table conversation, but it isn’t racism, not that we can much deal with. If it causes you harm - real harm, not just having your feelings hurt or causing you puzzlement at their ignorance - then it becomes a real issue.
To your example, if a black man has made into the “corporate world”, that is a testament racism didn’t hold him back, even if some folks are surprised to see him there.
You also say that 99% of the experience is the same as whites - if true, and we only see some form of racism 1% of the time, that actually sounds pretty good considering we are dealing with human beings. That doesn’t mean we should be idle about the 1% - but it means pretending the 1% defines the “Black Experience” is a frivolous and dishonest exercise. I am not suggesting you are doing this, but far too many are, and they continue to do so because they have a vested interest in perpetuating the victim mentality because it suits personal needs. I have zero tolerance for that idiocy, for the main reason is that it hurts the minorities it proclaims it is trying to help.
In no way should you construe my comments as suggesting racism doesn’t exist or need not be addressed. Racism, and prejudice generally, is alive and well, and we should continue to address it, confront it, and attempt to improve. But, sadly, we are getting distracted by the noisy wall of nonsense.
As for your experience, I hope you will share more. Your input is valued. It is far better than the usual solipsistic nonsense Professor X offers up, as Professor X would cry “racist!!!” if he saw someone choose vanilla over chocolate when selecting an ice cream cone.
Thanks for your time.