[quote]pittbulll wrote:
From the markets point of view I can understand why they would buy the Chinese steel but from an American Presidents point of view if it is not incompetence it is treason[/quote]
So, instead of letting millions of people that interact in the marketplace each day decide what they want to buy, we should leave that decision up to one man? Really?[/quote]
What ???
[/quote]
You said, from the “markets point of view”, which can only mean the views of the millions of people who interact in the marketplace each day since there is no market that I can physically touch or anything. You then said that, from an American president’s point of view it is treasonous to not stop these market participants from buying foreign products. Therefore, you seem to imply that one man should prevent millions from doing what they believe is in their self-interest. What’s so hard to understand?
I want to force companies to compete with America on a level playing field . demand[/quote]
LOL!!!
Libs… level playing field. OMG, that’s too funny.
Did you type that with a straight face?
On a level playing field some teams still lose. tilting the playing field to the side you want to win is the exact opposite of a level playing field.[/quote]
I would respond but this about sums it up.
[/quote]
I think you have an outstanding question being what did America gain for the huge price of the steel industry. you can not make a vague answer like cheap steel . Did Cars , Refigeraters ,Caterpillar products , what got cheaper , who made more money ???
I contend there was no up side . Reagan decimated a huge prosperous industry and America got nothing in return other than the down side
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
From the markets point of view I can understand why they would buy the Chinese steel but from an American Presidents point of view if it is not incompetence it is treason[/quote]
So, instead of letting millions of people that interact in the marketplace each day decide what they want to buy, we should leave that decision up to one man? Really?[/quote]
What ???
[/quote]
You said, from the “markets point of view”, which can only mean the views of the millions of people who interact in the marketplace each day since there is no market that I can physically touch or anything. You then said that, from an American president’s point of view it is treasonous to not stop these market participants from buying foreign products. Therefore, you seem to imply that one man should prevent millions from doing what they believe is in their self-interest. What’s so hard to understand?[/quote]
I buy steel on occasion , in the form of rebar . I doubt many people buy steel in it’s raw form . I buy other metals to fabricate things , but most people buy products that were made by some one that bought the metal
I want to force companies to compete with America on a level playing field . demand[/quote]
LOL!!!
Libs… level playing field. OMG, that’s too funny.
Did you type that with a straight face?
On a level playing field some teams still lose. tilting the playing field to the side you want to win is the exact opposite of a level playing field.[/quote]
I would respond but this about sums it up.
[/quote]
I think you have an outstanding question being what did America gain for the huge price of the steel industry. you can not make a vague answer like cheap steel . Did Cars , Refigeraters ,Caterpillar products , what got cheaper , who made more money ???
I contend there was no up side . Reagan decimated a huge prosperous industry and America got nothing in return other than the down side [/quote]
Tell me the price of a ford mustang was vs. what it would have been using american steel.
You are going to have to factor in about 1 million variables.
The fact remains cheaper material = cheaper product
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I believe this discussion has gone in the ditch , people getting disgusted and opposing policies that would benefit America all for arguments sake [/quote]
They would not benefit America and I’m not just playing devil’s advocate.[/quote]
You may not be playing Devils Advocate but you are misstating your point. To state it correctly
IN YOU OPINION those policies would do America no good. Now out of curiosity , how would picking up a huge industry with high paying jobs , not be good for America ? [/quote]
I thought I already stated that lower prices for all steel products increase the standard of living for Americans as a whole. You don’t have a firm grasp on economics.
You’re letting the liberal in you feel bad for those steel workers who are put out of work because their unions demanded higher wages than what they were worth. Don’t get me wrong, I feel bad for those workers as well. However, we can’t let emotions direct economic policy when it’s clear that protectionist policies decrease the standard of living for Americans as a whole.
[/quote]
Not if rather than spending $1 in America you spend $.99 in China . It is Anti American to expect them to compete with some one that makes pennies a day
[/quote]
Do you want to keep talking in circles? I already explained what they need to do if they can’t compete.
Open competition causes prices to be as low as possible because the only companies that survive are the companies that do things most efficiently. Unions killed America’s steel industry because paying high wages for unskilled labor is NOT efficient.[/quote]
I am not talking circles you are stating your position like it is undisputed fact and it is not. I understand open competition causes prices to be low .[/quote]
If you understand this, than you shouldn’t have any problems grasping why open competition of the steel industry lowered the price of steel. But I digress…
[quote]Hundreds of Thousands of High paying Jobs that paid taxes in a higher than normal tax bracket.
Now these areas have very high unemployment , a lot of people on welfare , high crime , high percentage of substance abuse issues.All on the tax payers dime. That is what your cheap steel cost.
For that price what did America get , did the price of an automobile go down ? Did refrigerators get cheaper ? I can not think of a business that is a bigger user of steel by percentage of finished product than Caterpillar . Did their stock value go up ? did their product prices go down ? Did they even manage to buy any of that cheaper steel you brag about?
I am asking specifically where this up side was ? I can give you thousands of examples BEING SPECIFIC .Usually these threads are defended by vague assertions of innuendo .
[/quote]
Hmm, being specific. That’s a good question. Here is an excerpt from Thomas Sowell’s Basic Economics (which I thank you for making me dig up, I haven’t read it in about a year and should probably read it again):
I understand competition brings keeps prices in check , what happened after American steel ceased it’s pressure
You did not mention one specific situation where America made a gain after paying such a huge price for maybe cheaper steel
There had to be a huge up some where in our economy to have paid such a huge price . The poorest cities in America were old steel towns [/quote]
I don’t mean to “call you out” but is English your 2nd language? I’m having trouble following your post (this is not the first time).
I thought the passage I quoted pretty much showed what import tariffs can do.
Also, you say “maybe cheaper steel” as if that’s even in question. If the American steel was cheaper, believe me, they would not have gone belly up.[/quote]
Steel got cheaper until all the American Markets started to fold , then with supply and demand I am sure steel exceeded the price when American steel was strong . That is why there is no visible up side
You quote was understood . but it is more theory with no examples. I did not ask for theory I asked for a specific example
I think the free market people on this board try to present half the picture cheap foreign made products are good for the supply side but bad for the demand side
I want to force companies to compete with America on a level playing field . demand[/quote]
LOL!!!
Libs… level playing field. OMG, that’s too funny.
Did you type that with a straight face?
On a level playing field some teams still lose. tilting the playing field to the side you want to win is the exact opposite of a level playing field.[/quote]
I would respond but this about sums it up.
[/quote]
I think you have an outstanding question being what did America gain for the huge price of the steel industry. you can not make a vague answer like cheap steel . Did Cars , Refigeraters ,Caterpillar products , what got cheaper , who made more money ???
I contend there was no up side . Reagan decimated a huge prosperous industry and America got nothing in return other than the down side [/quote]
Guy, steel is used in so many damn industries you want me to look at each individual industry and compare what prices were before and after each different company started using foreign steel?
It’s an analysis that I, nor anyone else on this board, is capable of. I gave you examples of what tariffs do (which is NOT theory as you suggested, but estimates based on what actually happpened).
Further, you have acknowledged that open competition lowers prices. I don’t know how you can argue that products using this cheaper steel weren’t made cheaper. It honestly defies common sense.
I want to force companies to compete with America on a level playing field . demand[/quote]
LOL!!!
Libs… level playing field. OMG, that’s too funny.
Did you type that with a straight face?
On a level playing field some teams still lose. tilting the playing field to the side you want to win is the exact opposite of a level playing field.[/quote]
I would respond but this about sums it up.
[/quote]
I think you have an outstanding question being what did America gain for the huge price of the steel industry. you can not make a vague answer like cheap steel . Did Cars , Refigeraters ,Caterpillar products , what got cheaper , who made more money ???
I contend there was no up side . Reagan decimated a huge prosperous industry and America got nothing in return other than the down side [/quote]
Tell me the price of a ford mustang was vs. what it would have been using american steel.
You are going to have to factor in about 1 million variables.
The fact remains cheaper material = cheaper product
more expensive material = more expensive product[/quote]
You will have to tell me I have been VERY specific on what YOUR cheap foreign steel cost , I want to Know Specifically what did we get for that huge price ? Not the Vague non answer of cheap steel . Who’s product prices went down. Who’s profits went up . Specifics .
The up side was and is non existent that is why you can not state any up side other than CHEAP STEEL .
I want to force companies to compete with America on a level playing field . demand[/quote]
LOL!!!
Libs… level playing field. OMG, that’s too funny.
Did you type that with a straight face?
On a level playing field some teams still lose. tilting the playing field to the side you want to win is the exact opposite of a level playing field.[/quote]
I would respond but this about sums it up.
[/quote]
I think you have an outstanding question being what did America gain for the huge price of the steel industry. you can not make a vague answer like cheap steel . Did Cars , Refigeraters ,Caterpillar products , what got cheaper , who made more money ???
I contend there was no up side . Reagan decimated a huge prosperous industry and America got nothing in return other than the down side [/quote]
Tell me the price of a ford mustang was vs. what it would have been using american steel.
You are going to have to factor in about 1 million variables.
The fact remains cheaper material = cheaper product
more expensive material = more expensive product[/quote]
You will have to tell me I have been VERY specific on what YOUR cheap foreign steel cost , I want to Know Specifically what did we get for that huge price ? Not the Vague non answer of cheap steel . Who’s product prices went down. Who’s profits went up . Specifics .
The up side was and is non existent that is why you can not state any up side other than CHEAP STEEL .
[/quote]
PRICE for whom?
Competition has always driven down prices. You are doing to have to show that it didn’t.
You made the claim prices went back above what American prices were, give me some data and please account for things like inflation.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I buy steel on occasion , in the form of rebar . I doubt many people buy steel in it’s raw form . I buy other metals to fabricate things , but most people buy products that were made by some one that bought the metal[/quote]
So? Firstly, they still ought to have the option to. Secondly, they benefit from the lower prices that someone else purchased them at.
Pittbull, I am going to pull something out of the playbook of Obama. Reagan had to do what he did because it was all Jimmy Carter’s fault. Jimmy Carter caused the Steele Industry to fold and not Reagan.
I want to force companies to compete with America on a level playing field . demand[/quote]
LOL!!!
Libs… level playing field. OMG, that’s too funny.
Did you type that with a straight face?
On a level playing field some teams still lose. tilting the playing field to the side you want to win is the exact opposite of a level playing field.[/quote]
I would respond but this about sums it up.
[/quote]
I think you have an outstanding question being what did America gain for the huge price of the steel industry. you can not make a vague answer like cheap steel . Did Cars , Refigeraters ,Caterpillar products , what got cheaper , who made more money ???
I contend there was no up side . Reagan decimated a huge prosperous industry and America got nothing in return other than the down side [/quote]
Guy, steel is used in so many damn industries you want me to look at each individual industry and compare what prices were before and after each different company started using foreign steel?
It’s an analysis that I, nor anyone else on this board, is capable of. I gave you examples of what tariffs do (which is NOT theory as you suggested, but estimates based on what actually happpened).
Further, you have acknowledged that open competition lowers prices. I don’t know how you can argue that products using this cheaper steel weren’t made cheaper. It honestly defies common sense.
[/quote]
I would think for the cost of our steel industry there would be just as much of a glaring upside . I contend it does not exist . So we threw away our steel industry. I can tell you cars did not get cheaper neither did refrigerators . Caterpillars stock did not go up . Nothing got better a whole lot of things got worse . this is my analysis .
I want to force companies to compete with America on a level playing field . demand[/quote]
LOL!!!
Libs… level playing field. OMG, that’s too funny.
Did you type that with a straight face?
On a level playing field some teams still lose. tilting the playing field to the side you want to win is the exact opposite of a level playing field.[/quote]
I would respond but this about sums it up.
[/quote]
I think you have an outstanding question being what did America gain for the huge price of the steel industry. you can not make a vague answer like cheap steel . Did Cars , Refigeraters ,Caterpillar products , what got cheaper , who made more money ???
I contend there was no up side . Reagan decimated a huge prosperous industry and America got nothing in return other than the down side [/quote]
Tell me the price of a ford mustang was vs. what it would have been using american steel.
You are going to have to factor in about 1 million variables.
The fact remains cheaper material = cheaper product
more expensive material = more expensive product[/quote]
You will have to tell me I have been VERY specific on what YOUR cheap foreign steel cost , I want to Know Specifically what did we get for that huge price ? Not the Vague non answer of cheap steel . Who’s product prices went down. Who’s profits went up . Specifics .
The up side was and is non existent that is why you can not state any up side other than CHEAP STEEL .
[/quote]
PRICE for whom?
Competition has always driven down prices. You are doing to have to show that it didn’t.
You made the claim prices went back above what American prices were, give me some data and please account for things like inflation.[/quote]
I agree competition drives down prices , but now the Market is minus American pressure
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Pittbull, I am going to pull something out of the playbook of Obama. Reagan had to do what he did because it was all Jimmy Carter’s fault. Jimmy Carter caused the Steele Industry to fold and not Reagan.[/quote]
I want to force companies to compete with America on a level playing field . demand[/quote]
LOL!!!
Libs… level playing field. OMG, that’s too funny.
Did you type that with a straight face?
On a level playing field some teams still lose. tilting the playing field to the side you want to win is the exact opposite of a level playing field.[/quote]
I would respond but this about sums it up.
[/quote]
I think you have an outstanding question being what did America gain for the huge price of the steel industry. you can not make a vague answer like cheap steel . Did Cars , Refigeraters ,Caterpillar products , what got cheaper , who made more money ???
I contend there was no up side . Reagan decimated a huge prosperous industry and America got nothing in return other than the down side [/quote]
Guy, steel is used in so many damn industries you want me to look at each individual industry and compare what prices were before and after each different company started using foreign steel?
It’s an analysis that I, nor anyone else on this board, is capable of. I gave you examples of what tariffs do (which is NOT theory as you suggested, but estimates based on what actually happpened).
Further, you have acknowledged that open competition lowers prices. I don’t know how you can argue that products using this cheaper steel weren’t made cheaper. It honestly defies common sense.
[/quote]
I would think for the cost of our steel industry there would be just as much of a glaring upside . I contend it does not exist . So we threw away our steel industry. I can tell you cars did not get cheaper neither did refrigerators . Caterpillars stock did not go up . Nothing got better a whole lot of things got worse . this is my analysis .[/quote]
Show me your numbers for the impact of steel prices against mentioned products.
I want to force companies to compete with America on a level playing field . demand[/quote]
LOL!!!
Libs… level playing field. OMG, that’s too funny.
Did you type that with a straight face?
On a level playing field some teams still lose. tilting the playing field to the side you want to win is the exact opposite of a level playing field.[/quote]
I would respond but this about sums it up.
[/quote]
I think you have an outstanding question being what did America gain for the huge price of the steel industry. you can not make a vague answer like cheap steel . Did Cars , Refigeraters ,Caterpillar products , what got cheaper , who made more money ???
I contend there was no up side . Reagan decimated a huge prosperous industry and America got nothing in return other than the down side [/quote]
Guy, steel is used in so many damn industries you want me to look at each individual industry and compare what prices were before and after each different company started using foreign steel?
It’s an analysis that I, nor anyone else on this board, is capable of. I gave you examples of what tariffs do (which is NOT theory as you suggested, but estimates based on what actually happpened).
Further, you have acknowledged that open competition lowers prices. I don’t know how you can argue that products using this cheaper steel weren’t made cheaper. It honestly defies common sense.
[/quote]
I would think for the cost of our steel industry there would be just as much of a glaring upside . I contend it does not exist . So we threw away our steel industry. I can tell you cars did not get cheaper neither did refrigerators . Caterpillars stock did not go up . Nothing got better a whole lot of things got worse . this is my analysis .[/quote]
Show me your numbers for the impact of steel prices against mentioned products.[/quote]
I want to force companies to compete with America on a level playing field . demand[/quote]
LOL!!!
Libs… level playing field. OMG, that’s too funny.
Did you type that with a straight face?
On a level playing field some teams still lose. tilting the playing field to the side you want to win is the exact opposite of a level playing field.[/quote]
I would respond but this about sums it up.
[/quote]
I think you have an outstanding question being what did America gain for the huge price of the steel industry. you can not make a vague answer like cheap steel . Did Cars , Refigeraters ,Caterpillar products , what got cheaper , who made more money ???
I contend there was no up side . Reagan decimated a huge prosperous industry and America got nothing in return other than the down side [/quote]
Guy, steel is used in so many damn industries you want me to look at each individual industry and compare what prices were before and after each different company started using foreign steel?
It’s an analysis that I, nor anyone else on this board, is capable of. I gave you examples of what tariffs do (which is NOT theory as you suggested, but estimates based on what actually happpened).
Further, you have acknowledged that open competition lowers prices. I don’t know how you can argue that products using this cheaper steel weren’t made cheaper. It honestly defies common sense.
[/quote]
I would think for the cost of our steel industry there would be just as much of a glaring upside . I contend it does not exist . So we threw away our steel industry. I can tell you cars did not get cheaper neither did refrigerators . Caterpillars stock did not go up . Nothing got better a whole lot of things got worse . this is my analysis .[/quote]
I have no idea what car prices were before or after foreign steel began being used.
However, I’d like to know how in depth your analysis is. First I’d like to see where you’re getting these numbers. Then I’d like to know, does your analysis account for inflation? Does it account for higher quality products?
The fact of the matter is that steel is used for thousands of products. Even if the few products you mentioned did not get cheaper (which you have not proven), that does not account for the thousands of other products that may have gotten cheaper.
Like I said, not you or anyone else on this board is capable of such an analysis given all of the products and all of the variables with each product.
Like I said, not you or anyone else on this board is capable of such an analysis given all of the products and all of the variables with each product. [/quote]
And I quoted this because this is the most important part of my post.
Like I said, not you or anyone else on this board is capable of such an analysis given all of the products and all of the variables with each product. [/quote]
And I quoted this because this is the most important part of my post. [/quote]
All I am asking for is fact , you post your posts and act as though Jesus wrote it .
Like I said, not you or anyone else on this board is capable of such an analysis given all of the products and all of the variables with each product. [/quote]
And I quoted this because this is the most important part of my post. [/quote]
All I am asking for is fact , you post your posts and act as though Jesus wrote it .[/quote]
It is a fact, and you can ask any economist (or anyone with common sense for that matter) that cheaper materials will yield a cheaper product.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
It is a fact, and you can ask any economist (or anyone with common sense for that matter) that cheaper materials will yield a cheaper product.[/quote]
Properly amended: It is a fact, and you can ask any economist (or anyone with common sense for that matter) that cheaper materials will yield a lower cost of production, ceteris paribus.
There may be other factors that cause the total cost of production to increase, despite cheaper materials. Also, lower cost of production doesn’t necessarily mean lower prices. It may result in larger profit margins at the same selling price.
Overall though, I agree with you. Pittbull either will not or cannot see that global competition is what damaged the U.S. steel industry. There wasn’t anything the government could’ve done that would’ve preserved the high wages and high profits without harming the rest of the economy.
This is hardly the first time this topic has been discussed, and pittbull has been a brick wall every time.