NYPD's Finest?

Zap_Branigan · November 30, 2006, 1:40pm

[quote]tom63 wrote:
…
That could be a problem. while it is true you can shoot a bad guy as many times as needed, the bullets you fire go someplace and hitting innocents is not acceptable. this goes back to the training I had previously mentioned.

[/quote]

I think it is silly to expect the average cop to be well trained in handgun usage under a high pressure situation.

Not to say we shouldn’t always try to improve, but it takes far too much time and daily practice in all sorts of situations to make the average cop a true expert.

It just isn’t going to happen. The NYPD’s claim that their members are trained to fire three shots and reasses is kind of hollow. I am sure that the training is not adequate for most of them.

Zap_Branigan · November 30, 2006, 1:42pm

[quote]hedo wrote:
…Unfortunately with a 9mm you often have to shoot a lot. Small, high velocity bullet. Barely enough gun.

[/quote]

They really need more powerful handguns with smaller capacities that take a little time to reload so the cop can thin about what he is doing.

It is a shame the revolver never caught on.

david_dunne · November 30, 2006, 2:37pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:
NDM wrote:
They didn’t know there wasn’t a gun.

They didn’t know there WAS a gun either. That didn’t stop the apparent attempt to block the car in and have a cop walk in front of a moving vehicle out of uniform.[/quote]

Gotta disagreee with this.

Look they hear dumbass SAY SOMETHING about a gun then pat his waist. I am a former UC officer and when someone mentions a gun and his hands go to his waist it’s because he has one or has one nearby. Badguys do it all the time-so do offduty cops. They subconciously pat the gun all the time.

Ok so the guy says he has a gun and makes a move toward his waist…then they get in the car. The UC walks in front of the car -because he is a COP. He is going to STOP the guys from either exiting the vehicle WITH the gun they mentioned or from driving away with the gun or from doing a drive by as they leave etc.
They hit the UC with the car and it all unfolds in about 8 seconds.

Thats it. Is it tragic? Kind of-there was no gun found at the scene. Of course one of the guys in the car also fled so who knows? But even if there was no gun-they SAID there was and a cop heard them. One made a gesture to his waist that most cops are familiar with and it is compatible with having a gun.

The fact the cop was UC doesnt mean that much really. If I was the UC and saw a car load of guys, walking from some confrontation, talking about getting guns and then hit YOU with their car - I would open fire on them for that too.

See, I would have to so they didn’t run you over and kill you. That’s the job.

It’s not a good situation. But it’s only a one sided picture if you are determined to see it as such.

david_dunne · November 30, 2006, 3:01pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:
These guys had a verbal confrontation outside of a club where the words, “yo, go get my gun” were a part of the exchange. Nothing physical even happened. No one got hit. Please explain to me when it is the cop’s job to get involved when no one called them, no gun was actually seen, and no punches were actually thrown all because of talk.

It sounds like the cops got bored with their strip club investigation and decided to turn all of their attention on these guys and overreacted. If that is what happened, how is it wrong to shine a light on it? I now have to worry about every word uttered publicly for fear that a cop may take it the wrong way undercover?[/quote]

Thats a joke. They got bored with the strip club investigation so they decided to turn their attrention to… the group of tough guy punks who are having a confrontation - then talking shit about getting their gun-then going to their car???

Man I HOPE that got the cop’s attention.

Anyone shooting off their mouth about getting guns and stuff maybe should shut the fuck up less a chain of events like this gets kicked off.

Tell me this-should they have ignored those guys and their gun threats? Kept working the strip club investigation and chose not to “get involved”?

C’mon man. The posts you put up are usually well thought out-and to some degree I agree you are thinking this one out - BUT it seems you cant/wont look at it from what the cops saw unfolding in front of them where they are OBLIGATED to react.
And one UC in front of the car with his badge out and yelling POLICE does not “surround” a car.

david_dunne · November 30, 2006, 3:07pm

[quote]PGA wrote:

Good point but I’ll think they’ll say, and they may have just cause, to stop him because they had “information” he had a gun.[/quote]

Thats too stupid to respond to. Yeah the cops should have let them be despite their threats about a gun etc. That would be the right call from a bunch of cops right? They should have just ignored that information and made their way to the nearest donut shop right pga?

Avoids_Roids · November 30, 2006, 3:14pm

Have no fear. Reverend Al will flesh out the REAL facts.

david_dunne · November 30, 2006, 3:22pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:

No one is. if they had simply continued with their investigation of the club, no one would be finding fault in their actions. It is when they start to interfere in situations OUT OF UNIFORM that would be best handled IN UNIFORM that questions get raised.

INTERFERE? BULLSHIT.
You are surprising me here. I actually respect 90% of your posts in the workout related areas but this is laughable.
They aren’t “interfering” they are doing what they swore to do. They cant ignore it and go away. That would be great for guys like pga bc then they could rant about how the “cowards” left bc they were scared.
As a former UC I can tell you it isn’t always possible to get a bunch of uniformed cops when you would want one. There are hundreds of different factors of why.

Again, this situation is not the ideal shooting scene for anyone involved but then again they rarely are. If said assholes hadn’t been talking shit about getting guns etc I am sure the cops would have done exactly what you seem to wish they would-let it go.

Once the threat of guns comes into it the whole thing changed. It had to.

anon37909890 · November 30, 2006, 3:24pm

[quote]david dunne wrote:

Thats too stupid to respond to. Yeah the cops should have let them be despite their threats about a gun etc. That would be the right call from a bunch of cops right? They should have just ignored that information and made their way to the nearest donut shop right pga?

[/quote]

No, they shouldnt have waited. If they felt that he was such a threat why didnt he stop and detain him when he “patted” his waist line? Why didnt they stop and detain him when he made the threat “go get my gun?” They shoudnt have let him walk ONE STEP if the felt his threats were legitimate.

Next…

david_dunne · November 30, 2006, 4:48pm

[quote]PGA wrote:
david dunne wrote:

Thats too stupid to respond to. Yeah the cops should have let them be despite their threats about a gun etc. That would be the right call from a bunch of cops right? They should have just ignored that information and made their way to the nearest donut shop right pga?

No, they shouldnt have waited. If they felt that he was such a threat why didnt he stop and detain him when he “patted” his waist line? Why didnt they stop and detain him when he made the threat “go get my gun?” They shoudnt have let him walk ONE STEP if the felt his threats were legitimate.

Next…[/quote]

not even close pga. There are many reasons why they dont pounce on a guy instantly. For one was it just the UC at that point? Up against 4 or more guys claiming to have a gun?
I dont know but I do know there are many reasons you DONT go afetr a guy immediately. For an example you wouldnt go into a dark stripclub looking to take down 4+guys who may or may not all be together inside. If it goes down then you have what-numerous people shooting inside a club with dozens of innocents? Not smart.

Take them down when the four idiots get inside a car. Nice and contained and backup right there with you or at least alerted its on.

NEXT…

Zap_Branigan · November 30, 2006, 4:57pm

[quote]david dunne wrote:
PGA wrote:
david dunne wrote:

Thats too stupid to respond to. Yeah the cops should have let them be despite their threats about a gun etc. That would be the right call from a bunch of cops right? They should have just ignored that information and made their way to the nearest donut shop right pga?

No, they shouldnt have waited. If they felt that he was such a threat why didnt he stop and detain him when he “patted” his waist line? Why didnt they stop and detain him when he made the threat “go get my gun?” They shoudnt have let him walk ONE STEP if the felt his threats were legitimate.

Next…

not even close pga. There are many reasons why they dont pounce on a guy instantly. For one was it just the UC at that point? Up against 4 or more guys claiming to have a gun?
I dont know but I do know there are many reasons you DONT go afetr a guy immediately. For an example you wouldnt go into a dark stripclub looking to take down 4+guys who may or may not all be together inside. If it goes down then you have what-numerous people shooting inside a club with dozens of innocents? Not smart.

Take them down when the four idiots get inside a car. Nice and contained and backup right there with you or at least alerted its on.

NEXT…[/quote]

Where was the uniformed backup? From the reports I have seen it was the undercover guys that tried to take them down.

Since he was talking about going to get the gun wouldn’t it have made more sense to stop him from getting in the car where he would have had access to the gun?

I am not a cop hater at all but it looks like these guys screwed up big time.

anon37909890 · November 30, 2006, 4:57pm

[quote]david dunne wrote:

not even close pga. There are many reasons why they dont pounce on a guy instantly. For one was it just the UC at that point? Up against 4 or more guys claiming to have a gun?
I dont know but I do know there are many reasons you DONT go afetr a guy immediately. For an example you wouldnt go into a dark stripclub looking to take down 4+guys who may or may not all be together inside. If it goes down then you have what-numerous people shooting inside a club with dozens of innocents? Not smart.

Take them down when the four idiots get inside a car. Nice and contained and backup right there with you or at least alerted its on.

NEXT…[/quote]

Get your facts straight then reply. You’re missing a lot of facts. There were NUMEROUS officers outside the club, minimum of six. THATS where he said get my gun. Obviously he didnt have a gun in the club. He just “patted” his waist.

david_dunne · November 30, 2006, 5:16pm

[quote]Professor X wrote:
NDM wrote:
So if a cop is assigned to catch speeders, and he sees a group of people threatening a guy, and then saying “yo go get my gun”, he should “mind his own business” and continue to watch for speeders? Which one should be higher on the priority list? Hmmmm…

I get it…you’re joking. You are pretending that you DON’T understand that regardless of any threat made, these guys were LEAVING and NO PUNCHES WERE THROWN. If they were going to jump in, wouldn’t the correct time have been…oh, I don’t know…WHILE THERE WAS A THREAT?

Yep, you sure are one funny comedian. Excuse me while I guffaw.[/quote]

If there had been no punches and they had threatened to “kick their ass” or something like that - fine. Then I could see your point.

BUT THEY MADE A THREAT INVOLVING GUNS.

Dont you think that changes the cop’s list of options? It sure as heck takes “let them walk away and do nothing” off the table.

david_dunne · November 30, 2006, 5:21pm

[quote]PGA wrote:
david dunne wrote:

not even close pga. There are many reasons why they dont pounce on a guy instantly. For one was it just the UC at that point? Up against 4 or more guys claiming to have a gun?
I dont know but I do know there are many reasons you DONT go afetr a guy immediately. For an example you wouldnt go into a dark stripclub looking to take down 4+guys who may or may not all be together inside. If it goes down then you have what-numerous people shooting inside a club with dozens of innocents? Not smart.

Take them down when the four idiots get inside a car. Nice and contained and backup right there with you or at least alerted its on.

NEXT…

Get your facts straight then reply. You’re missing a lot of facts. There were NUMEROUS officers outside the club, minimum of six. THATS where he said get my gun. Obviously he didnt have a gun in the club. He just “patted” his waist.[/quote]

Several backup officers outside. Ok so what?

The idea is still NOT to have a running gun battle so you would take them down as soon as they got in the vehicle.

Does that not make sense to you?

pga you seem to have a problem with most cops period. Thats fine. I am not one to side with cops 100% everytime either.
I am just pointing out that you dont want a footchase/gun battle going on down the street. You take them down where they cant run in 4 different directions with guns.
Pretty simple.

david_dunne · November 30, 2006, 5:34pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
david dunne wrote:
PGA wrote:
david dunne wrote:

Thats too stupid to respond to. Yeah the cops should have let them be despite their threats about a gun etc. That would be the right call from a bunch of cops right? They should have just ignored that information and made their way to the nearest donut shop right pga?

No, they shouldnt have waited. If they felt that he was such a threat why didnt he stop and detain him when he “patted” his waist line? Why didnt they stop and detain him when he made the threat “go get my gun?” They shoudnt have let him walk ONE STEP if the felt his threats were legitimate.

Next…

not even close pga. There are many reasons why they dont pounce on a guy instantly. For one was it just the UC at that point? Up against 4 or more guys claiming to have a gun?
I dont know but I do know there are many reasons you DONT go afetr a guy immediately. For an example you wouldnt go into a dark stripclub looking to take down 4+guys who may or may not all be together inside. If it goes down then you have what-numerous people shooting inside a club with dozens of innocents? Not smart.

Take them down when the four idiots get inside a car. Nice and contained and backup right there with you or at least alerted its on.

NEXT…

Where was the uniformed backup? From the reports I have seen it was the undercover guys that tried to take them down.

Since he was talking about going to get the gun wouldn’t it have made more sense to stop him from getting in the car where he would have had access to the gun?

I am not a cop hater at all but it looks like these guys screwed up big time.[/quote]

I understood it was the UC officer who stepped in front of the car and id’d himself and ordered them to stop. I didn’t think they had uniforms on scene as back up or anything else.

I hear what you are saying about get him before he gets to the gun…but the reality is it wasn’t 4 cops vs 4 badguys at that point. It sounds like it was the UC on point and the backup moving in to position so no I wouldn’t go up and lone ranger all four guys either. He probably didnt want them getting to where the gun may be either… but 1 vs 4 arent odds you are gonna survive if one does pull a gun.
The better odds are when they are contained and when the backup officers are moving closer too.

Nobody said this was flawless. They never are. Second guessing is expected as well.

But once the assholes started talking shit about guns -the cops can’t go back to their earlier investigation.
How smooth was the take down? No very.

The UC most likely is trying to prevent the car full of shit talking gun carrying idiots from taking off where it turns into a highspeed chase with guns (from what his info was right then).

But honestly look at the options the cops had and the UC officers had and tell me with a straight face what they SHOULD have done?

MaloVerde · November 30, 2006, 5:41pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I am not a cop hater at all but it looks like these guys screwed up big time.[/quote]

It’s sad that you and many others here feel that you have to say that you aren’t a cop hater, Zap.

I have read many posts on this site from fellow LE officers who have provided great information about their experiences and viewpoints. Most have done so without being defensive or stooping to threats.

These guys know constructive conversation when they see it and only want to provide the LE perspective without bringing the gavel down or appearing to always be on the LE side.

And those officers that are one sided douche bags making threats? Who gives a fuck if they think you hate them or not?

david_dunne · November 30, 2006, 5:44pm

[quote]PGA wrote:
david dunne wrote:

not even close pga. There are many reasons why they dont pounce on a guy instantly. For one was it just the UC at that point? Up against 4 or more guys claiming to have a gun?
I dont know but I do know there are many reasons you DONT go afetr a guy immediately. For an example you wouldnt go into a dark stripclub looking to take down 4+guys who may or may not all be together inside. If it goes down then you have what-numerous people shooting inside a club with dozens of innocents? Not smart.

Take them down when the four idiots get inside a car. Nice and contained and backup right there with you or at least alerted its on.

NEXT…

Get your facts straight then reply. You’re missing a lot of facts. There were NUMEROUS officers outside the club, minimum of six. THATS where he said get my gun. Obviously he didnt have a gun in the club. He just “patted” his waist.[/quote]

take a deep breath and reread my post you were responding to pga.
See the part about “for an example”?

Ok good. Now read the part about trying to keep four suspects CONTAINED so they could be taken down all at once instead of trying to rush one UC up against four suspects where at the least you have a chaotic footchase in four directions and at worse one or more goes for a gun and the officer is now involved in a shoot out with 1-4 suspects on an open street.

Put it this way - if you were the UC would you bumrush the four guys like a movie hero or would you take into account the public’s safety too and try for the conatined scenario?

NDM · November 30, 2006, 5:54pm

[quote]david dunne wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
david dunne wrote:
PGA wrote:
david dunne wrote: