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61

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I’m probably just cynical, but I don’t believe the photographer was running down the platform trying to use his camera flash to get the conductor to stop as he said in his account.

Also, while I’d love to say that I’d run over to the guy and have him grab hold of my forearms as I Zercher’ed him out of harms way, I think there’s a very real possibility of getting pulled in one’s self or having the man on the tracks grab on the the rescuer and not let go, perhaps getting both parties killed.

Just an awful situation all around.[/quote]

You say that now, but in the moment I doubt you would have thought it out like that. You’d just react.[/quote]

I’ve only been in simulated high stress life and death situations, and even then, you’d be surprised what people will and won’t do.[/quote]

Depending on the person.

62

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I’m probably just cynical, but I don’t believe the photographer was running down the platform trying to use his camera flash to get the conductor to stop as he said in his account.

Also, while I’d love to say that I’d run over to the guy and have him grab hold of my forearms as I Zercher’ed him out of harms way, I think there’s a very real possibility of getting pulled in one’s self or having the man on the tracks grab on the the rescuer and not let go, perhaps getting both parties killed.

Just an awful situation all around.[/quote]

You say that now, but in the moment I doubt you would have thought it out like that. You’d just react.[/quote]

I’ve only been in simulated high stress life and death situations, and even then, you’d be surprised what people will and won’t do.[/quote]

Depending on the person.
[/quote]

One of the more revealing moments I saw this was when a car flipped outside of a house party I was at. There were a few other parties on the same street, so there were plenty of people around. It was really surprising how many people stood around and judged things, relative to the number of people who actually went and helped.

Like, literally, out of probably 70ish people, there were only 5 who actually did anything to help… redirect traffic, check on the guy, get him out of the car and calmed down until the ambulance arrived, flip the car back over, etc.

Interestingly, I actually had some people judging ME negatively for helping the guy. This was after we got it all handed over to the authorities and I came back to drink.

So, really, people make weird decisions, and I just don’t think you’ll ever really know until you see them put in a situation where they ought to act.

63

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I’m probably just cynical, but I don’t believe the photographer was running down the platform trying to use his camera flash to get the conductor to stop as he said in his account.

Also, while I’d love to say that I’d run over to the guy and have him grab hold of my forearms as I Zercher’ed him out of harms way, I think there’s a very real possibility of getting pulled in one’s self or having the man on the tracks grab on the the rescuer and not let go, perhaps getting both parties killed.

Just an awful situation all around.[/quote]

You say that now, but in the moment I doubt you would have thought it out like that. You’d just react.[/quote]

I’ve only been in simulated high stress life and death situations, and even then, you’d be surprised what people will and won’t do.[/quote]

Depending on the person.
[/quote]

One of the more revealing moments I saw this was when a car flipped outside of a house party I was at. There were a few other parties on the same street, so there were plenty of people around. It was really surprising how many people stood around and judged things, relative to the number of people who actually went and helped.

Like, literally, out of probably 70ish people, there were only 5 who actually did anything to help… redirect traffic, check on the guy, get him out of the car and calmed down until the ambulance arrived, flip the car back over, etc.

Interestingly, I actually had some people judging ME negatively for helping the guy. This was after we got it all handed over to the authorities and I came back to drink.

So, really, people make weird decisions, and I just don’t think you’ll ever really know until you see them put in a situation where they ought to act.[/quote]

So in a nutshell, MOST people suck?

64

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I’m probably just cynical, but I don’t believe the photographer was running down the platform trying to use his camera flash to get the conductor to stop as he said in his account.

Also, while I’d love to say that I’d run over to the guy and have him grab hold of my forearms as I Zercher’ed him out of harms way, I think there’s a very real possibility of getting pulled in one’s self or having the man on the tracks grab on the the rescuer and not let go, perhaps getting both parties killed.

Just an awful situation all around.[/quote]

You say that now, but in the moment I doubt you would have thought it out like that. You’d just react.[/quote]

I’ve only been in simulated high stress life and death situations, and even then, you’d be surprised what people will and won’t do.[/quote]

Depending on the person.
[/quote]

One of the more revealing moments I saw this was when a car flipped outside of a house party I was at. There were a few other parties on the same street, so there were plenty of people around. It was really surprising how many people stood around and judged things, relative to the number of people who actually went and helped.

Like, literally, out of probably 70ish people, there were only 5 who actually did anything to help… redirect traffic, check on the guy, get him out of the car and calmed down until the ambulance arrived, flip the car back over, etc.

Interestingly, I actually had some people judging ME negatively for helping the guy. This was after we got it all handed over to the authorities and I came back to drink.

So, really, people make weird decisions, and I just don’t think you’ll ever really know until you see them put in a situation where they ought to act.[/quote]

So in a nutshell, MOST people suck?
[/quote]

Not sure I’d go that far. People are just people. I’ve most gotten away from judging to just observing.

I think one of the strongest forces in play in situations like these is actually “I don’t want to stand out and look different by actually helping, if nobody else is”. I know there’s a name for that, I just don’t remember what it is.

I just find it interesting observing people’s priorities. Alcohol tends to make them even more clearer, without, you know, conscious thought to get in the way.

65

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I’m probably just cynical, but I don’t believe the photographer was running down the platform trying to use his camera flash to get the conductor to stop as he said in his account.

Also, while I’d love to say that I’d run over to the guy and have him grab hold of my forearms as I Zercher’ed him out of harms way, I think there’s a very real possibility of getting pulled in one’s self or having the man on the tracks grab on the the rescuer and not let go, perhaps getting both parties killed.

Just an awful situation all around.[/quote]

You say that now, but in the moment I doubt you would have thought it out like that. You’d just react.[/quote]

I’ve only been in simulated high stress life and death situations, and even then, you’d be surprised what people will and won’t do.[/quote]

Depending on the person.
[/quote]

One of the more revealing moments I saw this was when a car flipped outside of a house party I was at. There were a few other parties on the same street, so there were plenty of people around. It was really surprising how many people stood around and judged things, relative to the number of people who actually went and helped.

Like, literally, out of probably 70ish people, there were only 5 who actually did anything to help… redirect traffic, check on the guy, get him out of the car and calmed down until the ambulance arrived, flip the car back over, etc.

Interestingly, I actually had some people judging ME negatively for helping the guy. This was after we got it all handed over to the authorities and I came back to drink.

So, really, people make weird decisions, and I just don’t think you’ll ever really know until you see them put in a situation where they ought to act.[/quote]

So in a nutshell, MOST people suck?
[/quote]

Not sure I’d go that far. People are just people. I’ve most gotten away from judging to just observing.

I think one of the strongest forces in play in situations like these is actually “I don’t want to stand out and look different by actually helping, if nobody else is”. I know there’s a name for that, I just don’t remember what it is.

I just find it interesting observing people’s priorities. Alcohol tends to make them even more clearer, without, you know, conscious thought to get in the way.[/quote]

It may also be more that many people genuinely do not know what to do and wind up just standing there. Then they feel stupid because they probably considered themselves a person of action and might even judge those who do act as rationalization. I think most people want to be good and want to do good and think that they will when it’s needed but fail under pressure.

66

Anyone know if Good Samaritan laws apply to accidents?

Not sure if urban legend, but occasionally you hear where someone helps an accident victim to safety, only to end up being sued by the victim who ended up worse off for being moved (paralysis).

67

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Anyone know if Good Samaritan laws apply to accidents?

Not sure if urban legend, but occasionally you hear where someone helps an accident victim to safety, only to end up being sued by the victim who ended up worse off for being moved (paralysis). [/quote]
I know in the state of Texas as a medical provider I am liable for malpractice if I stop and help in an accident.

Needless to say I avoid getting myself in situations where I must render aid

68

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Anyone know if Good Samaritan laws apply to accidents?

Not sure if urban legend, but occasionally you hear where someone helps an accident victim to safety, only to end up being sued by the victim who ended up worse off for being moved (paralysis). [/quote]

I think it might depend where you are, but when I took first aid training about ten years ago we discussed this and here in British Columbia you are protected from such lawsuits. IIRC the phrase used was ‘life over limb’ meaning it’s acceptable to risk someone’s paralysis to save their life.

69

^^That said if you are negligent you are negligent.

70

[quote]debraD wrote:
^^That said if you are negligent you are negligent. [/quote]
Thinks are a little different in the states DD
We tend to be very litigious

71

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I’m probably just cynical, but I don’t believe the photographer was running down the platform trying to use his camera flash to get the conductor to stop as he said in his account.

Also, while I’d love to say that I’d run over to the guy and have him grab hold of my forearms as I Zercher’ed him out of harms way, I think there’s a very real possibility of getting pulled in one’s self or having the man on the tracks grab on the the rescuer and not let go, perhaps getting both parties killed.

Just an awful situation all around.[/quote]

You say that now, but in the moment I doubt you would have thought it out like that. You’d just react.[/quote]

I’ve only been in simulated high stress life and death situations, and even then, you’d be surprised what people will and won’t do.[/quote]

Depending on the person.
[/quote]

One of the more revealing moments I saw this was when a car flipped outside of a house party I was at. There were a few other parties on the same street, so there were plenty of people around. It was really surprising how many people stood around and judged things, relative to the number of people who actually went and helped.

Like, literally, out of probably 70ish people, there were only 5 who actually did anything to help… redirect traffic, check on the guy, get him out of the car and calmed down until the ambulance arrived, flip the car back over, etc.

Interestingly, I actually had some people judging ME negatively for helping the guy. This was after we got it all handed over to the authorities and I came back to drink.

So, really, people make weird decisions, and I just don’t think you’ll ever really know until you see them put in a situation where they ought to act.[/quote]

Yep. This happens all the time. Guys who seem super solid who you expect to be total studs end up completely shitting the bed while the seemingly least likely of people come through like champs and no doubt surprise themselves as much as anyone else.

That’s why all these “I would have done this or that” discussions after the fact are just so much hot air.

72

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Anyone know if Good Samaritan laws apply to accidents?

Not sure if urban legend, but occasionally you hear where someone helps an accident victim to safety, only to end up being sued by the victim who ended up worse off for being moved (paralysis). [/quote]

It varies from state to state. I would say most probably do not compel assistance while shielding people form liability where they attempt reasonable assistance. Those that do require action may require something as minimal as calling 911.

There are also duty to rescue laws which require a person to act in various circumstances; e.g., parents, spouses, emergency workers, the person who caused the peril.

73

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Not sure I’d go that far. People are just people. I’ve most gotten away from judging to just observing.

I think one of the strongest forces in play in situations like these is actually “I don’t want to stand out and look different by actually helping, if nobody else is”. I know there’s a name for that, I just don’t remember what it is.

I just find it interesting observing people’s priorities. Alcohol tends to make them even more clearer, without, you know, conscious thought to get in the way.[/quote]

It may also be more that many people genuinely do not know what to do and wind up just standing there. Then they feel stupid because they probably considered themselves a person of action and might even judge those who do act as rationalization. I think most people want to be good and want to do good and think that they will when it’s needed but fail under pressure.
[/quote]

Maybe I’m just being naive here, but I sort of saw all the ‘problems’ in the situation as pretty straightforward.

  • make sure the driver is ok, calmed down, and then get him out of the car if he is
  • make sure help is on the way
  • make sure traffic is directed around the accident, so we don’t end up with another
  • get the car flipped back over so it can be towed away

None of those really required much skill or training. Maybe logic escapes people at the sight of something shocking? I suppose the emotional effect could have been overwhelming. I don’t really know.

What surprised me more was that when I got back from that, someone even told me “the guy was drunk, he deserved it, why did you even help him?”

74

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Anyone know if Good Samaritan laws apply to accidents?

Not sure if urban legend, but occasionally you hear where someone helps an accident victim to safety, only to end up being sued by the victim who ended up worse off for being moved (paralysis). [/quote]

It varies from state to state. I would say most probably do not compel assistance while shielding people form liability where they attempt reasonable assistance. Those that do require action may require something as minimal as calling 911.

There are also duty to rescue laws which require a person to act in various circumstances; e.g., parents, spouses, emergency workers, the person who caused the peril.[/quote]

Here you are never required to risk your own safety and exposing yourself to someone else’s bodily fluids is a risk so CPR is only for people who choose to help.

75

Didn’t consider the body fluids issue.

Way too much to consciously think about on the spot!

Heroes are made here.

76

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Didn’t consider the body fluids issue.

Way too much to consciously think about on the spot!

Heroes are made here.[/quote]

The trainers we had were paramedics (and I thought they were self-important douchebags :stuck_out_tongue: ) and they spent more time explaining how much risk we are putting ourselves at because of the worthless junkies who just want to stab us with needles etc then talking about the ethics of letting someone go without your help.

I understand that they do take that risk but they really didn’t have the perspective for leading a discussion of first aid ethics to non-paramedics, since they spent 90% of their time on East Hastings denying help to junkies. And that’s not a judgement to them for denying help to junkies but it’s a different world from what the regular person would encounter.