Nutrition VENTING

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

This may be a poor example, but I know many individuals who are BIG and RIPPED and eat and train like crap. Granted they work hard in the gym; bust out 10 sets of this, and 15 sets of that, train to beyond failure on every set, but it’s clearly not “smart” training. They don’t know what the hell they are doing; they just lift hard (not smart), eat whatever they want, and get huge. Heb is right, it’s called genetics…and for someone with less than average genetics, it can be quite frustrating. (I don’t get frustrated, for my own reasons, but that’s another topic)

One of my close friends plays football for Townsend University. He's about 5'9", 205, 4% body fat. He's always been big, but since he started training at the collegiate level, he really blew up, although his diet has never changed. He eats when he is hungry (2-3 times a day) and its usually cereal, McDonalds, pizza, or some other kind of fast food. There are plenty of people like this out there...BIG; RIPPED; or BIG and RIPPED, and don't have to pay much attention to anything...they just grow. Granted, they're not all over the place, but they are abundant in many gyms and training facilities. Most of the bigger guys you see in gyms don't know their stuff...they're in there because they see results and grow fast.

I have found that there are three types of people in gyms:

1. Those who don't know what the hell they're doing, but have above average genetics, so they still grow anyway.

2. Those that live the bodybuilding lifestyle and work for every inch of progress they make.

3. Those that don't know what the hell they are doing, have below average genetics, and don't get anywhere. (These people normally don't last long; you'll see 'em for a couple of weeks and then "bye-bye," 'cause everytime they "try" to exercise they don't get anywhere and quit).

Now of course some individuals will fall into more than one category (i.e. genetic freaks who live the bodybuilding lifestyle- these are the hugest of them all), but that pretty much sums it up.

Take what you got, and make the best of it. Everyone has genetic limitations, but if you compete against yourself and make progress, you win everytime. Comparing yourself to others won't do anything but get you "frustrated."
-JM

22

Ok guys, I get the point… Jay is not huge. Maybe he was a bad example to use on this forum, since you all are probably beefier than that. I for one would still like to see an article that delves into just what specific genetic differences allow some to have easier results than others. Everyone throws the term “genetics” around loosely, but what are the specific factors that are involved? Is it having more natural testosterone? Or is it having a thyroid that pumps out more natural T-3 (is that what gives some people “fast metabolisms?”) is it having more muscle tissue at birth? having more muscle receptors for testosterone? etc.

23

How is it possible to get results if you are doing the wrong things? That isn’t possible so it should be obvious that there is something wrong with your theory.

Bodybuilders, as a group, are often foolish about certain aspects of nutrition and most take way too many supplements when there might be no requirement or advantage to doing so. The best information is obtained from a university testbook in nutrition for graduate students in that subject. Get one of those books and study it. You will then have the best information available about what to eat, etc. Should you listen to the experts who write for bodybuilding magazines on nutrition? If they are truly expert in that area then of course. However, be wary of information written by those who make and sell supplements.

If there is one subject that bodybuilders are usually wrong about it is protein. Exactly how much is needed for hypertrophy? In my opinion a lot less than is advocated by bodybuilding experts. What do the studies show? Very little about bodybuilders. It is my guess that 50 grams a day might be sufficient to grow muscles. Excess protein is converted to energy. That is an expensive way to get calories!

That 150 pound fellow must be doing some things right. The reason he is not gaining is because he goes out on weekends and doesn’t eat enough food or get enough rest. That can stop one from gaining muscle. However, he is doing enough to maintain a muscular and strong body. If he were not he would atrophy and get weaker.

Guys like Arnold didn’t attend to all that rubbish about eating the right things. He would eat whatever he liked and would of course get all the nutrients he needed. Lee Priest also eats KFC or whatever else tastes good and has a lot of energy in it. I think a lot of bodybuilders take vitamins and other supplements so that they won’t lack anything. This is a wasteful strategy and means that most people don’t really know that much at all about nutrition.

All that talk about genetic naturals is a cop out. It is begging the question. How would any of us know what anyone’s genetic contribution to bodybuilding potential is, anyway? We do not know anything of the sort and it is just a rationalizing conjecture to dismiss the results and efforts of others.

You cannot grow large muscles without doing something right. Lots of things right. Yes, if one sustains correct methods then it should be possible to surpass the efforts of those who are reckless and cavalier about their bodies.

Imagine the market of all those bodybuilders who are on plateaus and will grasp any idea or theory that might help them grow. Bodybuilding magazines have always sold supplements. Today that is almost out of control. There really are a lot of charlatans out there duping the hapless, naive bodybuilders. Always ask the question, Says who? and go look up the information in proper text books and university studies.

24

D: You won’t find a single answer to that question, because there is none.


If the Human Genome Project has shown us anything, it’s how little we know. What we know are a helluva’ lot of little pieces, but when you begin to get into the complex interaction of those pieces, we are WORSE than being in the Dark Ages!


So…here is my personal take (or definition) when I use the term “genetics”:


“Those complex, essentially unknown, physiologic and biochemical factors, that when they interact within this individual, allow their body to respond in this particular way.”


So…there are processes within one individual that, when they interact, favor leaness…others fat deposition…still others, rapid reflexes…the list goes on…


If you think about it…a LOT of what we struggle to do is “overcome” those tendencies.

25

There are a couple of things I noticed in your post I want to touch on. 1) You’ve probably realized it by now, but Jay ain’t somebody to be jealous of. He is not somebody to admire or be jealous of. My buddy who I lived with for a few months when we were training for pro wrestling played LB for Michigan State: not HUGE, but 6’, 225, lean, can slam dunk, owns 1 or 2 shuttle drill records at MSU, military presses over 300 lbs, eats a Dominos pizza and cheesy bread 2x a week, his favorite snack is 3/4 of a gallon Edys ice cream and a roll of Pillsbury cookie dough, has Hooters waitresses ask him out, is dating the ex-wife of a San Jose Shark (she has implants too)…etc, etc. My point? There is always someone out there “better” than you at something or “luckier” than you genetically. So what? You can’t worry about their life, worry about your life. And remember: everybody has problems, nobody lives a trouble free life. 2) You are worried about not gaining. My ? to you is: are you lifting as heavy weights as possible on basic compound movements? Like Goldberg said, make sure you Squat. And deadlift, power clean, chin, etc. 3) You don’t know if you’re really doing the right thing by carrying a duffel bag full of pills and powders. You know what? You’re right. You may have started to realize that you DON’T NEED SUPPLEMENTS to succeed and have a great physique. You don’t have to spend 100s of dollars a month to look great. Supplements are a tiny part of the equation and frankly, the cost-benefit just ain’t worth it (if they do work at all). My suggestion is to check out these sites: The Dinosaur Training page at brookskubik.com, The Garage Gym at www.net1.net/users/trigg, and the Old School Strength board at http://pub26.ezboard.com/ foldschoolstrengthtraining70757frm1
I HIGHLY recommend purchasing a copy of Dinosaur Training- Kubik offers a special along with the book comes a 1 yr subsc. to his newsletter. They are both awesome and inspirational.
Good luck, and don’t be jealous of anybody else-it can only hurt you.

26

As long as he drank enough milk, he probably took in a decent amount of protein. The reason your bud came out buff and strong from jail was that he did nothing but lift and rest. No job, no family to support. Just watch his back in the yard and the showers. Most people don’t realize it, but rest is an enormous factor in building size and strength. Growth occurs outside the gym!

27

Vince, c’mon. Saying that genetics don’t play a part is just stupid. Sorry to say that, but that’s the way it is. Every one of us on this forum has known people who never did much right but still looked better/were stronger than those of us (or others) who trained consistently, read up on the relevant literature, ate right, etc. I used to work out with a guy in high school who, at 17, could squat close to 400 and deadlift about 450. He was six feet tall and weighed about 185. I know for a cold stone fact that, aside from going into a gym for a few months, he did NOTHING right. Not eating, not rest, nothing. Except, of course, he did choose the right parents (who blessed him with unbelievable quad insertions).


Holding up Arnold and Lee Priest as your examples of people who don’t pay attention to their diets is similarly silly. Yeah, Priest eats KFC … in the off-season. You can bet he doesn’t do it before a contest. And Arnold has talked about how when he came to America and lost to Frank Zane, he all of a sudden had to change his focus from getting bigger to getting perfect. How do you think he did that? By eating whatever he liked?


As for 50 g of protein being enough, I challenge you to produce ONE advanced bodybuilder who has made good gains on that little protein. If you can give me ONE example, I’ll shut up. But I don’t think you can, because one thing that seems obvious is that muscle won’t grow without a positive nitrogen balance, and you won’t get that without a fair amount of protein in your system. But hey, if I’m wrong about this, prove me wrong. Always willing to learn something new…

28

My initial thought was to leave Vince’s post alone. At first I was amazed…then amused…then for some strange reason, a little angry (which I don’t tend to let happen, especially on an internet Forum!). But I couldn’t let his rants go unanswered.


Where do I begin?


Vince; I will be the FIRST to apologize if I’m wrong, but if I’m not mistaken, aren’t you the “NAFFA” supporter who so vehemently defended the morbidly obese and the fact that some people “can’t” lose weight, despite all their “efforts?” Yet you get on here and essentially rale on many of us (myself included), who fight each and every day our genetic tendency to put on fat? Do we have to be 500 plus pounds before you believe that there are those who literally can possess lean and muscular physiques in spite of what they do, while others of us have to struggle for every pound of fat loss or muscle gain? You’re damn right there are people who can do “everything wrong” and still be lean and muscular. I have friends that I’ve known since High School that I love as much as brothers, so I know how they live and eat. They laugh as they chug down some pizza and beer after a workout, and I’m drinking “Surge”. Yet a couple of them are as lean and muscular as they were in High School.


Don’t argue out of both sides of your mouth, depending on whom you support.


Next. A graduate Textbook of Nutrition is probably good for a few things: 1) Passing graduate school nutrition test 2) bookends for my Bodybuilding Books and Tapes 3) Having someone like J.B. translate it into useful information and 4) selling it at the end of the semester to other graduate students for a little “Grow” or “Surge” money. Even in medical school, what’s covered as far as nutrition is concerned is an absolute joke. (As any physician can tell you). Soy loving “Prevention” magazine is a better choice for nutrition information than the average Graduate Text. Now…if I want to know how to formulate some Parenteral Nutrition (TPN) or devise a diet for someone in renal failure, you bet I’d refer to one. But to build a world-class physique? You must be kidding…


(The Lion chokes in disbelief that someone is advocating 50grams of protein/day…).


Vince…most “RDA’s” or nutritionist recommendations for nutrient totals were originally meant to prevent disease. (Things like Beriberi, Scurvy, Kwashiorkor, etc.). They were not meant to build physiques and lean mass. And you can bet that if you spend a lifetime eating 50 grams of protein a day, you probably won’t do a very good job of preventing disease either! So…take in about 50 grams of Tofu (a graduate Text in nutrition would certainly recommend Soy WAY before “Grow”, I’m sure) and what? The rest as carbs and fat? Let me know when YOUR text on nutrition comes out, Vince. It should be a winner…


Now. On to “The Oak”. You need to go look at “Pumping Iron” again and read a lot more about Arnold. The guy was (and is) the master at mind games and manipulation. Big Lou, and the others competing against Arnold, lost the contest before they even touched the stage. He would sit at a table with Lou and others and act and talk like he was lackadaisical in his diet and workouts, but Arnold was an animal in the gym, and strict about his diet. Look at the movie. “The Oak” had all those guys psyched out with just by his presence. And another thing…what Arnold did or didn’t do did not determine his full muscle bellies and symmetrical lines. Bad example, Vince…


Another bad example is to use someone who gets closer to the grave with each contest as his weight fluctuates hundreds of pounds, while he uses God knows what Pharmaceuticals (and “Hydroxycut”, of course!). KFC would be glad to know that Priest only needs to eat their chicken (regular or crispy?) to build his physique. (Vince…you better tell Jason Alexander the “secret”, since genetics have nothing to do with it all).


This could go on forever, but I had to respond. But to reiterate my points: 1) the average nutrition text is a good reference for preventing disease and for the diets of disease, but NOT for physique enhancement. 2) There are “genetic tendencies” that people have that “pull them” in certain physiologic directions. We don’t use that tendencies as some excuse, but do those things that will help us fight those tendencies. There are people who can truly “get away with” lackadaisical diets and workouts and maintain a lean physique, while others fight for every inch!


Vince…I certainly did not agree with the “NAAFA” attacks. But you need to look in the mirror, buddy. You turned around and attacked those of us who love this lifestyle in much the same way. (Albeit not as ugly as some of the “NAAFA” attacks). You need to look at the motivation behind the things you advocate.


I’m Outta’ here…Peace


Mufasa


(P.S. Does KFC serve breakfast?)

29

Genetics. I used to get upset when I was in my twenties and would be busting my balls just like you , living right, watching diet so on and so on. Guys in my gym would do ust about anything they please, work out maniacally with no set routine and would constantly make better gains. I never really concerned myself wtih them because I knew sooner or later it would catch up with them, either when the juice ran its course or they got bored and gave it up. I’m now 44 5 11 210lbs. and 8% bf. I’m not saying this to sound like some bigshit I’m just letting you know you are on the right course and years from now you will reap the benefits from consistant training, diet and supplementation. Shit, supps compared to what they were 20 yrs. ago aint no comparison. By the way most of the guys from the day back when are lard licks who don’t even pick up the iron anymore. Don,t worry about anybody else but yourself and you will be fine. A lot of people have just outright quit training because thay can"t look like the next guy. Be positive and kick ass when your in the gym and rememeber this 155 lb.(I can’t believe your jealous of someone 155lbs.) party monster probably won’t even be training 10 yrs from now. Fuck em’.

30

This is a ridiculous thread.

31

Someone challenged me to find one world class bodybuilder who takes only 50 grams of protein a day. I can’t help it if bodybuilders overdo things. Most don’t train the way I would recommend, either, and so they resort of ridiculous drug protcols. Hey, that is their business and they suffer the consequences.

The protein debate usually makes bodybuilders seem naive to scientists. How are bodybuilders going to test how much protein they really need. Eating more than they need gets converted into energy. That, to me, is plain foolishness. I have always tried to live the rational life in as many ways as possible. This includes nutrition and bodybuilding. I want to do the minimum and not take huge amounts of supplements just to be sure. That is quite foolish. When I was at UBC a professor from England challenged me about my use of vitamins. I told him I took extra vitamin C and vitamin B. He said the sewers of Vancouver were filled with vitamins. After that I made sure I read up on nutrition and found out things for myself. He was right, we don’t need extra vitamin C and B if we are eating enough in our diets. The same goes for protein.

How are we going to settle such issues here? Ask the experts? No way I will accept many as experts. I will accept valid research that has been designed to test what we are talking about. So far I haven’t seen much happening in the Weider Research clinic or in any research extablishment concerning the needs of bodybuilders. It is just a bunch on hookum. The gullible bodybuilders keep buying the stuff so it must be working! Yeah, right, that is scientific proof.

Arnold was personal friends with all the judges in the IFBB. That is why he knew he would win that contest. That cocky look into the camera at the end said it all. It wasn’t to be his curtain call because he repeated that performance in Sydney in what was the most controversial contest of all time. He won but was booed by most of the audience. I will have to find a copy of the report of the judging that I wrote about that contest. Few believed Arnold deserved to win. Arnold is a smart guy. Smarter than most of us. I arrived in LA in the same week as Arnold but he went from success to success while I emigrated to Australia. That guy had more ambition than I ever had. I have done okay, but I wouldn’t take the risks that he took.

You don’t win contests by psyching out competitors but by getting the majority of the judges to vote for you. That is how it works.

Anyway, I doubt if anyone here is going to abandon their cherished beliefs about genetics, drugs and craziness being the difference between the pros and the wannabes. So be it.

32

Vince, shut-up.

33

Vince,

No one cares about what you have to say because your arguments are weak. You have nothing to back them up. But hey, keep trying, it fun to watch you go down in flames.

34

Your post is so ignorant it actually bothers me.

“The best information is obtained from a university testbook in nutrition for graduate students in that subject.” Are you trying to pass yourself off as a big shot graduate Student? You’re not. Those textbooks, which you’re talking about, are 10 years behind T-Mag. Anything that’s presented as new and cutting edge in those books was in MM when TC ran the show there.

“How is it possible to get results if you are doing the wrong things? That isn’t possible so it should be obvious that there is something wrong with your theory.” I don’t even know where to begin with this one. It brings into question whether you even work out or are profoundly retarded.

Natt the Hat

35

Vince, You must have not done any research in the last 20 years. All your theories are 20-30 years old, if not older than that.

36

little off topic here, but people here seem to think that medical students should know something about nutrition…feck off

if you want to know about nutrition ask a person with a degree in human nutrition…im doing nutrition at otago university in new zealand and “generally” most of the crap they tell me is fairly close to what bber’s preach in regards to protien/vitamins etc etc

the only thing that holds them back is they have to rely on scientific studies before they would even admit getting in a shower makes you wet.

anyway…medical students only do less that a week or two study on nutrition in a degree that takes over 5 years, just about anyone on this board would know more.

37

Guys, you know what’s scary? I actually remember Vince’s name from those couple of published articles way back when, and they seemed to make sense at the time!

38

Just had to chime in here…In defence of Vince, he does make a few valid points: 1.)We should not always trust the opinions of people who have a vested interest in selling us something. 2.) We shouldn’t simply adopt trends in supplements or food intake simply because “everyone else” has found them productive. 3.)The source of knowledge should be listened to the most (this means digging for meaningful scientific evidence rather than relying on filtered down interpretations). 4.) I also believe that our vitamin needs can be filled via a proper diet. Next time you pop a multivitamin, check your urine an hour later…notice the strange colour - that’s the excess being excreted out. Not to mention that most multi pills are rarely fully broken down and may not be fully bioavailable.
Lastly, since when was knowledge from 30+ years ago “outdated”? Guys built great athletic and strong physiques back then (and before) that probably rate better than most of our bodies on this board. I know that we all like to think we’re smarter than folks were 30 years ago, and that we’re proud of our e-knowledge, but sometimes you’ve got to realise that what we know now is a direct benefit of those who came before us. Show some respect.

39

you have obviously been in the game for a while, but for some reason you still think that weider and his publications print valid information - stating valid research and the weider research clinic in the same breath just makes me giggle.
As for 50 grams of protein being enough to build muscle, well that amount wouldn’t even meet the british RNI (reference nutrient intake) which is only to cover the protein needs of 97% of the sedentary population (the RNI in britain is 55 grams).
There has been so much published work in this field that it is unbelievable - and most of it is printed in university sport nutrition texts.
just to throw a couple of referencers at you (mostly nitrogen balance studies done on weight lifters)- Celejowa (1970) found that 2g/kg was to low to keep 50 % of the weight lifters in positive balance. Cansolazio (1975) found that increased nitrogen retention occured at 2.8g as opposed to 1.4g/kg, Lemon et al (1992) found that at 1.35g/kg day all of the resistance trained subjects were in negative nitrogen balance. just from these studies it is clear that a 70 kg man would be in a negative nitrogen balance at 94 grams of protein a day (70*1.35)nearly double what you have recommended. whilst there are a lot of factors that affect nitrogen balance (energy consumption etc) it seems a bit foolish to state that an active individual can gain muscle on an amount of protein that wouldn’t even cover the basic needs of some sedentary individuals.