NSA Phone Records

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

Unfortunately, not much – that is, unless you can both publicize what’s going on and get a majority of voters to care. That’s a tall order – a lot of people will willingly swap what libertarians and classical liberals deem to be important individual rights in exchange for a small measure of economic security, or to empower the goverment to “fix” a perceived harm (which is what happened during the New Deal and the civil rights cases, respectively).

In Europe, that might not even be enough – see what’s happened with the EU Constitution being rammed down the throats of various countries after repeated rejections, as happened in Ireland and may happen in the Netherlands.

What we probably cannot do is dismantle the various prongs of government that have sprung up in the last 100 years – the IRS, executive agencies, etc. Perhaps the only way to really pare things back is to come up with a series of Amendments to the Constitution (or in the EU’s case, amendments to the draft constitution) that address individual rights and prohibit the government from taking certain actions altogether w/r/t individuals. Kind of a 2nd Bill of Rights movement, if you will.

Short of that, you’re fighting against a 100 year tide of consolidation of power in the government’s hands, which happened in piecemeal fashion – so it would be extremely hard to tackle the problem by tackling the expanding government. Better at this stage, in my opinion, to tackle the problem by vesting rights in individuals.[/quote]

Ahhh mate, that is definitely not what I wanted to hear. :*(

You speak as though there is no hope!

Throughout history you can see how this consolidation of power incrementally grows simultaneously with the removal of people’s rights. Because it is incremental people grow accustomed to it and what happens is people don’t even realise what is happening becuase it is so gradual.

As each generation dies off, so does the memory of old freedoms. Each new generation is born with less rights, but that seems normal and acceptable to them, because it is all they know. I suppose the phrase ignorance is bliss is very applicable here.

Obviously, reality is more complex than that and there have been times where the people win back some of their freedoms and power, but as far as history since the birth of the United States goes, I’d say that is a decent summary (for much of the rest of the world too).

Anyways, thanks BostonBarrister, I hope you will try to raise awareness, and I am going to try too.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:

Americans don’t care about the legalese of wrapping the NSAs activities in the 4th Amendment.

That IS the only point.

The majority doesn’t seem to mind what they’re doing at all, actually.[/quote]

Wrong.

[quote]
Marmadogg wrote:

Americans don’t care about the legalese of wrapping the NSAs activities in the 4th Amendment.

That IS the only point.

BostonBarrister wrote:
The majority doesn’t seem to mind what they’re doing at all, actually.

Marmadogg wrote:
Wrong.[/quote]

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

Marmadogg wrote:

Americans don’t care about the legalese of wrapping the NSAs activities in the 4th Amendment.

That IS the only point.

BostonBarrister wrote:
The majority doesn’t seem to mind what they’re doing at all, actually.

Marmadogg wrote:
Wrong.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/12/AR2006051200375.html[/quote]

Two polls since that poll say otherwise as Americans have had more time to absorb the this news:

More Americans Disapprove Than Approve of Government Collecting Phone Records

NEWSWEEK POLL: Fifty-Three Percent of Americans Feel Collecting a Database of U.S.-Based Calls Goes Too Far in Invading Privacy
http://prnewswire.com/news/index_mail.shtml?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/05-13-2006/0004360839&EDATE=

BOOYAH!

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:

Marmadogg wrote:

Americans don’t care about the legalese of wrapping the NSAs activities in the 4th Amendment.

That IS the only point.

BostonBarrister wrote:
The majority doesn’t seem to mind what they’re doing at all, actually.

Marmadogg wrote:
Wrong.

Two polls since that poll say otherwise as Americans have had more time to absorb the this news:

More Americans Disapprove Than Approve of Government Collecting Phone Records

NEWSWEEK POLL: Fifty-Three Percent of Americans Feel Collecting a Database of U.S.-Based Calls Goes Too Far in Invading Privacy
http://prnewswire.com/news/index_mail.shtml?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/05-13-2006/0004360839&EDATE=

BOOYAH!
[/quote]

Explanation of differences between Wash Post/ABC and Gallup/USA Today and Newsweek as being related to wording and question order:

http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2006/05/postabc_on_nsa_.html

NSA Records Polling – Update – MysteryPollster (which also critiques Gallup poll for polling over the weekend)

Critique of wording in Gallup/USA Today poll:

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2006/05/looks_like_my_p.html

And, most recent poll of the bunch, by your favorite folks at Fox, which mirrors the Washington Post/ABC poll:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,196220,00.html

Before you break your arm patting yourself on the back, you may wish to take precautions that your boo doesn’t get stuck in your yah…

Americans don’t like it.

'Nuff said.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
Americans don’t like it.

'Nuff said.[/quote]

From your posts, I gather you think repeating things over and over will make them true. Try buying a lottery ticket, clicking your heels together three times while repeating “I will win” and see how that works out for you - but don’t forget to put on your Ruby Red slippers first…

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
Americans don’t like it.

'Nuff said.

From your posts, I gather you think repeating things over and over will make them true. Try buying a lottery ticket, clicking your heels together three times while repeating “I will win” and see how that works out for you - but don’t forget to put on your Ruby Red slippers first…[/quote]

reaction formation

Look it up.

[quote]
Marmadogg wrote:
Americans don’t like it.

'Nuff said.

BostonBarrister wrote:
From your posts, I gather you think repeating things over and over will make them true. Try buying a lottery ticket, clicking your heels together three times while repeating “I will win” and see how that works out for you - but don’t forget to put on your Ruby Red slippers first…

Marmadogg wrote:
reaction formation

Look it up.[/quote]

So subconsciously you’re a deep thinker, but you portray yourself as the polar opposite as a defense mechanism? Interesting…

Or you’re saying you’re the expert on the actual preferences of American people, who are disagreeing with your preferred response in surveys as part of a pervasive national defense mechanism… How very interesting indeed.

And sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar…

ADDENDUM:

Of course, perhaps there are other reasons why Americans aren’t caring about this – according to Michael Rosen, the story is not accurate, not troubling, and isn’t really news: TCS Daily : Technology - Commerce - Society

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
Americans don’t like it.

'Nuff said.

BostonBarrister wrote:
From your posts, I gather you think repeating things over and over will make them true. Try buying a lottery ticket, clicking your heels together three times while repeating “I will win” and see how that works out for you - but don’t forget to put on your Ruby Red slippers first…

Marmadogg wrote:
reaction formation

Look it up.

So subconsciously you’re a deep thinker, but you portray yourself as the polar opposite as a defense mechanism? Interesting…

Or you’re saying you’re the expert on the actual preferences of American people, who are disagreeing with your preferred response in surveys as part of a pervasive national defense mechanism… How very interesting indeed.

And sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar…

ADDENDUM:

Of course, perhaps there are other reasons why Americans aren’t caring about this – according to Michael Rosen, the story is not accurate, not troubling, and isn’t really news: TCS Daily : Technology - Commerce - Society

You are still wrong.

Cheers!

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
You are still wrong.

Cheers![/quote]

The art of marm – an instantaneous, one-sided conclusion, and no build up. I hope that’s not what the ladies say about you as well…