Just kinda curious how people are thinking about this… I’m sure I’m not the first?
It’s my opinion that sometimes acts of patriotism are acts that go against the law for the sake of honoring the spirit of things, in that sometimes the right thing, or the patriotic thing is to go against the rules.
There’s this nagging question in my mind that follows a realization. The realization is that it’s possible to be a traitor and a patriot at the same time in that you can betray say the president while still honoring the principals of the country. Is this what Snowden did?
I’m finding myself trusting his words more than politicians and even entertained the idea of voting for the guy.
I don’t know everything about every bit of information he leaked, and very concerned about whether the secrets he leaked directly led to troop deaths. But the government is in a position where at least I have less confidence in my leaders ability to tell the truth, and a lot of confidence in Snowden given he has a track record of exposing the truth.
Do you want him back in the country?
Do you trust him more or less than your government?
I believe less and less of whatever I see in the news and hear from our elected leaders. The government takes care of the government and Snowden is a huge threat to it.
Maybe he is more patriot than traitor, but we ever know all we need to know to make that determination? Not too likely. I’m actually surprised that he’s still alive at this point. If he ever returns to US soil, that will be the last anyone hears from him ever. So that option is out for him.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
It’s my opinion that sometimes acts of patriotism are acts that go against the law for the sake of honoring the spirit of things, in that sometimes the right thing, or the patriotic thing is to go against the rules. [/quote]
Agree, see revolution.
I agree, but am not convinced that is what Snowden is doing and it’s hard to tell with something like this.
For what?
[quote]
I don’t know everything about every bit of information he leaked, and very concerned about whether the secrets he leaked directly led to troop deaths. [/quote]
Major issue for me.
Why not pick a third option. Someone that is not a career politician and someone that may or may not (in our opinions) be a traitor?
[quote]
Do you want him back in the country?
Do you trust him more or less than your government?
Snowden is a piece of shit, and I’ll tell you why.
He did what he did for one of two basic reasons: Fuck America, or Fuck the People Who Would Ruin What America Stands for by Violating Our Civil Liberties.
Considering he skipped town and headed for Russia and China of all places, I have to think that his reason was the former. If you respect freedom and this was all about exposing a violation of it, why China of all fucking places? Was he living in a cave his entire life? Is he not aware of the utter lack of the freedoms he claims to want to protect over there?
If he cared about the freedoms being violated in America, he’d stick around and take his punishment with the hope that the system and the people he ostensibly wants to help protect will validate him in the end. Conscientious objectors who do their objecting from a position of protection and safety are fucking losers who don’t have the balls to actually stand completely up for what they believe in. Snowden just wanted to reveal a bunch of shit because he’s a shit disturber. He’s no patriot.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Snowden is a piece of shit, and I’ll tell you why.
He did what he did for one of two basic reasons: Fuck America, or Fuck the People Who Would Ruin What America Stands for by Violating Our Civil Liberties.
Considering he skipped town and headed for Russia and China of all places, I have to think that his reason was the former. If you respect freedom and this was all about exposing a violation of it, why China of all fucking places? Was he living in a cave his entire life? Is he not aware of the utter lack of the freedoms he claims to want to protect over there?
If he cared about the freedoms being violated in America, he’d stick around and take his punishment with the hope that the system and the people he ostensibly wants to help protect will validate him in the end. Conscientious objectors who do their objecting from a position of protection and safety are fucking losers who don’t have the balls to actually stand completely up for what they believe in. Snowden just wanted to reveal a bunch of shit because he’s a shit disturber. He’s no patriot.[/quote]
Snowden’s motives and whether he is guilty of a crime/crimes/treason, etc. are largely irrelevant to the question of the legality and appropriateness of the NSA’s actions; Snowden’s conduct and the NSA’s conduct should be judged separately and independently, IMO. In other words, the legality and appropriateness of the NSA’s actions should be judged on its own merits regardless of how the evidence was gathered or brought to light, and I don’t think concepts like the “exclusionary rule” under the 4th Amendment excuse the government from bad acts or have any place in the discussion, even if the manner of exposure of the bad acts was, itself, illegal. Whether or not Snowden is or isn’t a big piece of shit is totally irrelevant to the bigger issue of whether the NSA is also committing illegal acts on a massive and systemic level.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Considering he skipped town and headed for Russia and China of all places, I have to think that his reason was the former. If you respect freedom and this was all about exposing a violation of it, why China of all fucking places? Was he living in a cave his entire life? Is he not aware of the utter lack of the freedoms he claims to want to protect over there?
[/quote]
I don’t believe he intended to be there and he’s very lucky to not be in jail now, or even somewhere else a lot more unpleasant. That first interview in Hong Kong was his point of no return and I don’t think he was at all mentally prepared for what would follow.
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
Whether or not Snowden is or isn’t a big piece of shit is totally irrelevant to the bigger issue of whether the NSA is also committing illegal acts on a massive and systemic level. [/quote]
Obviously should be noted that the NSA’s actions were all legal under (iirc) things within the Patriot Act.
Of course, then you have to consider the utter irrationality within the concept of “since it’s legal, it MUST be right”
But, like you said, you need to separate between Snowden himself and the NSA’s actions.
I do not know which I would choose- safety or security. The government spying on you? Of course that’s bad. But is it really going to lead to the slippery slope of a 1984 world? I dunno.
I am tempted to say that I’d rather risk the possibility of death via terrorism than have the government spy on our every move.
…
But then I’m pretty sure i’d change my mind REAL QUICK if one of my loved ones died because of terrorism. I’m pretty sure I’d be screaming at the government for failing to protect people.
The government is in a terrible bind that has no real answer. I think it would be nice if people at least recognized that and stopped thinking that the government is out to get us all or something.
In the interview he recently had, he covered the reason why he won’t come home. He said under the espionage act, there would be no fair trial for him. He’d be at the mercy of the government with no way to defend himself. Granted, I don’t know everything about the whole situation, I’m glad he let us know what the NSA is doing. It’s Orwellian to say the least. IMO the founding fathers would praise Snowden. He saw something that he didn’t believe was constitutional, and did something about it. He gave the information to the people. He tried to communicate his concerns to higher level personnel in the NSA, but they basically told him not to ask questions. This is documented.
The NSA did admit that there was at least one time when Snowden expressed concerns. Thomas Jefferson said it best ,“When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.” Right now it’s safe to say that many of us fear the government and not the other way around.
Also, I don’t know if any of you watched his interview, but the things he said that surveillance agencies can do is cringe worthy to say the least. He said any device on the network can be turned on, used as a microphone, and used as a camera. He also said the most disturbing thing he found that they have the capability of doing is mapping thought process. They can watch your screen as you type, back space, and know where you are and when you tend to use your devices. We’re all on the grid whether we like it or not.
The reason Snowden is in Russia is because Hong Kong International Airport allowed him to fly out with his revoked Passport but Russia would not . America revoked his pass port and he was caught in Russia .
A couple points no one mentioned
was he made no gain , financially or other wise .
It was a huge cost to his life , both personal and financially
There are 5 other people that went through proper channels they were stopped 1 other leaked some info about illegal servaliance to New York Times . They grabbed one of the wrong guys and ruined his life , wanted to implicate the other 4 .
The person that leaked the info has come out and said the Government had the wrong guy . This shit is better than fictio
I don’t believe Russia hasn’t taken a run at him. I’m no body language expert but I’m not always sure you can buy into such things. If an interview determined how the American public viewed me, I’d practice too. No one wants to go into an interview and say the wrong thing or be caught off guard. He’s a smart guy, I’m sure he prepared himself for what would be asked. I don’t know anyone who goes into a job interview having never thought of what would be asked of them or have thought of what their answers might be. I recently had a scholarship interview and you bet your ass I practiced lol. I wasn’t about to walk in and be caught off guard and end up looking like a moron.
[quote]SirTroyRobert wrote:
IMO the founding fathers would praise Snowden. He saw something that he didn’t believe was constitutional, and did something about it. He gave the information to the people.[/quote]
Doubtful, many of the very same people who signed the Declaration and had a hand in creating the Constitution participated in the creation of the Alien and Sedition Acts, arguably the most serious attempt by the government to suppress dissent against the majority party, and thus the worst attempt by the government to police the populace.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
I think an argument can be made for revealing what was being done with regard to US citizens, but WTF with telling foreign nations about US spying? They do the exact same thing to the extent that they are capable of it, and that was none of Snowden’s business.[/quote]
This is interesting. Not sure it will change your mind, the illusion of autonomy vs. real autonomy? What would you rather have? The way I think of it, we are only 4% of the world, we are important. But are we so important that others don’t deserve privacy, and therefore autonomy?
[quote]Chushin wrote:
I think an argument can be made for revealing what was being done with regard to US citizens, but WTF with telling foreign nations about US spying? They do the exact same thing to the extent that they are capable of it, and that was none of Snowden’s business.[/quote]
This is interesting. Not sure it will change your mind, the illusion of autonomy vs. real autonomy? What would you rather have? The way I think of it, we are only 4% of the world, we are important. But are we so important that others don’t deserve privacy, and therefore autonomy? [/quote]
Yep, at 13 minutes it begs the question… Have the terrorists won? I remember going into the war there was a lot of rhetoric about the terrorists hating our freedoms.
We altered our freedoms for the sake of our own safety. Which means we don’t have the same freedoms, which means they accomplished what WE implied their ultimate goal was. They have no reason to hate us anymore in that they changed our government in such a way that we have fewer freedoms, we knowingly have less autonomy. Not just the rest of the world, U.S. citizens as well. We have to understand that if they CAN they will.
If that is true we can’t claim any sort of victory over terrorists, because we are the ones changing for them.
