Do you think a novice can bring the intensity that FT requires? Do you believe they can do so without compromising form and increasing their injury potential? Do you think a novice has enough buy-in to read FT in-part or in its entirety? Do you believe a novice will know decent A, B, and C exercises for them and their bodies?
@venomvenom If I were to start fresh I would’ve wanted to start here
A good starting workout would be one from a Steve Reeves book…3x/week full body
Well, if a novice trainee is a dedicated bookworm I would say that anything is possible. FT is tweakable for anyone, and the simplest version with tier one may work - provided ability to digest the information. With that said, you do have a point. Some experience may be required in order to come up with different excercises. But, when I was a newbie many years ago, I would have loved to hear about FT - it would have spared me lots of trial and error (damn you muscle mags).
Bear in mind though, in another thread some thought “Deep water” was a great way to go for a less experienced trainee. How about that for intensity? I guess it all depends on the individual.
good lortd, Deep Water for beginners 
RIP Rotator Cuffs around the world
With the plethora of articles and training programs laid out in detail on this site, as well as many other reputable sites/ebooks/coaches, I always wonder why we EVER get people coming in with ‘I had my buddy write me a program’, or even worse ‘I wrote my own program’.
If you wanted to cook a great meal, and you had a recipe from a world class chef in front of you, would you call your buddy who happens to cook sometimes and say ‘hey can you tell me how to make this thing that I already have a world-class recipe for?’
I find it weird people are shying away from Deep Water for beginner considering it’s effectively the program that was used by a fat 14 year old boy.
I wold have LOVED to have started with something like that. Would have answered so many questions.
Personal opinion here is that running something as intense as Deep Water during MY newbie days likely would have led to an injury or complete lack of understanding in what i was doing. I dont think it mentioned anything in the book, but Jon Anderson likely wasn’t given the Deep Water protocol to start by his gym coach - he probably built it after having a basic understanding of what was required to grow.
Although if Jon Anderson wanted to chime in, i’ll happily gaze in awe
If you read the book, he talks about doing 10 sets of 10 at the start. All about seeing how many sets he could do, squatting through the vomit, etc. You’re absolutely right it wasn’t given to him by his coach: it was something he figured out on his own. He talks about that in a lot of podcasts as well.
I just read back over it and it never mentioned his training methods in high school, but it did bring up the 10x10 chronologically during that time.
Haven’t listened to his podcasts, so i’ll cede to your understanding.
No matter how you put it, that is extreme. With that motivation he sure could have moved mountains. What makes a man do that to himself in the first place? (Desperation? Having absolutely nothing to lose?). Not meaning any disrespect here what so ever. This IS an inspiring story!
It would definitely put a decisive end to the “I work hard in the gym” sanctimony we keep hearing from doughy people who aren’t getting results but don’t know why.
It’s hard and very demanding food wise. I don’t want to sound pompous cause sometimes I have trouble keeping up with the program diet wise but, I believe most would lack the mentality.
Ironically the program will get you bigger and stronger (Did I really need to mention this to you)
It’s a good way to find out quick if this is something you really want.
That would likely be me that recommended it, if it’s the thread I’m assuming you’re talking about.
I feel as though I was pretty aimless and confused while running random programs or 531 templates. Deepwater turned me from someone less experienced to someone with more of a grasp on how hard you really have to work in order to get any sort of result in a timely manner. I still consider myself pretty unlearned in the topics of programming and exercise selection, but now I work my ass off. I am also feeling more confidence in moving on to other programs and having them work for me.
I will say, I do agree that DW probably isn’t for everybody… but it’s worth a shot for someone who REALLY wants to get better.
With a plethora of training programs comes analysis paralysis. 5/3/1, Dan John programs, Deep water, Westside for skinny bastards, body part splits. push-pull-legs splits, greyekull LP, reg park 5x5, starting strength, Juggernaut, stronglifts, Layne Norton PHAT, PHUL, stronger by science, Texas method,etc.
It’s what I think is the primary culprit for people who want to get bigger and stronger making none or little progress. People 15+ years ago did routines they found out of Mens’s health or bodybuilding magazines, and overall had much less choice, so decision making was easier. Someone asking a friend to write them a program is a way of trying to eliminate decisions so that they can get on with training.
It’s a way of shifting the responsibility if they fail.
Because all of the above approaches will work if the trainee does. Apart from Starting Strength, Starting Strength sucks (obligatory “this is a joke” caveat)
That’s a convenient hypothetical as seemingly most people on these forums won’t even read articles before posting, as per what @flipcollar wrote.
I haven’t done Deep Water, so I can’t speak from experience on it specifically. If memory serves from reading it, a training session could for instance have a person do 10x10 at 50-55% (of 1RM presumably?).
Without even having done it myself, it is not difficult to arrive at the conclusion that’d require digging deep more fatigue is accumulated. But, to get those 1+++ you cannot help but dig deep.
Meanwhile, FT keeps volume comparatively low to Deep Water, and if a trainee still doesn’t know how to really reach failure then I don’t think they’ll be able to bring forth enough tenacity on those limited number of sets to get much out of them.
As is the old adage, most people might think they are pushing themselves to a 10 on the RPE scale but might genuinely be at an 8. Or a 6.
And even if you tell someone that’s a relative novice that you are really going to have to dig deep, on the off-chance that they are an individual that doesn’t have to train themselves mentally to acquire that skill, will they be able to do so without compromising their movement pattern shifting the load away from the target musculature?
I’m not saying a novice shouldn’t train with intensity, they probably can but they might not even need to, but I think they’d have an easier time doing it right with DW than FT.
Feel free to disagree.
Do you feel like those are the only ways to be motivated to be great? Have you also considered ‘a strong desire to be great’ as a motivator?
It seems very strange to me that one can only imagine implementing hard work and dedication under the circumstances of desperation and ‘nothing to lose’. Like, I’ve got a pretty good life outside of the gym, I’ve got a family, a great job, etc. Plenty to lose. I’m not desperate. And I’ve still put myself through hell to be great at what I do.
But perhaps your mentality, this idea that hard work to achieve great things only happens under those conditions, may be pretty common. And it would explain why so few people do it.
