Not Making Gains in Weight or Strength

Training Bodybuilding
21

[quote]Aggro wrote:
will-of-iron wrote:
A caloric surplus is NOT necessary for size gains. Strength gains are.

Can you go into some more detail on this one please?[/quote]

Sure. My experience (as a strength coach with 14 years of lifting experience) is that the body is FAR smarter and more complex than the old calories in/calories out model. What ultimately causes muscle gains is strength gains and a favourable hormonal profile. I’ve seen countless natural trainees eat VERY low calories and gain significant strength and size. Remember, fat mass actually produces estrogen and is a sign of poor insulin sensitivity so very lean trainees gain muscle much better. This view is unpopular right now on internet bodybuilding forums (where the “eat pizza and burgers” thing is currently in fashion) but it works.

22

How can your anecdotal evidence of 14 years trump the thousands upon thousands that do see size and strength gains in a caloric surplus?

I was expecting a bit more “proof” than just “your experience” maybe some pics of people who build muscle and strength on low calorie diets. Possibly some research from someone at least semi respected in the industry?

23

So, nutrition textbooks are way off about that whole calorie-in / calorie-out deal? Science is out the window on this one.

24

Wow, wasn’t expecting nearly as many responses! Seems like a great forum with a lot of people willing to help with some good info (except that one guy who called me a troll…wtf?)

As far as my diet, when I say I eat healthy, I don’t mean I count my calories and meticulously watch what I’m eating. It’s funny how some of you guys mention a lot of things I currently do, like eating peanut butter or milk (although I don’t drink whole milk, I just can’t stomache it. I only recently started liking the taste of reduced fat milk on its own), and almost everything I eat has olive oil in it, which is probably a big reason my percentage of fats when tracking my diet was rather high as well. I really liked the idea of eating nuts as a snack while at work or school as I’m often on the move.

Will-of-iron, my routine is (more or less) as follows: (almost always have 6-8 reps as my happy medium with about 4 or 5 sets)
I rarely max out, only really maxed out on benching once or twice. I also do a small amount of ab work every day.

Press day:
Start off with benching (can max out at between 200-210) some days I’ll do incline too or maybe JUST incline
triceps: dips (sometimes weighted), close grip presses, skullcrushers
Shoulders: Either do dumbbell or barbell presses or arnold presses

Pull day:
Dead lifts: My last sets are usually around 275 lbs (I don’t really max out on these)
Close and wide grip pull ups (sometimes use weight)
Rows: Either with a bar or with a cable driven machine (more often the latter)
Shrugs
Biceps: preacher curls or regular standing curls

Leg day:
Squats: I do 275 maybe 5 times
Calves

On all these days I try to do some cardio after my lifting. I also wanted to ask how beneficial it would be to stretch? Obviously I know it’s good for you, but can it help me? How much stretching should I do? I’m thinking my time at the gym should be

45 min of weight
25 min of cardio
10 min of stretching

Right now it’s more like:

1 hr - 1hr 15 min of weight
10 min cardio
little to no stretching

Thoughts? Advice?

25

[quote]will-of-iron wrote:
Aggro wrote:
will-of-iron wrote:
A caloric surplus is NOT necessary for size gains. Strength gains are.

Can you go into some more detail on this one please?

Sure. My experience (as a strength coach with 14 years of lifting experience) is that the body is FAR smarter and more complex than the old calories in/calories out model. What ultimately causes muscle gains is strength gains and a favourable hormonal profile. I’ve seen countless natural trainees eat VERY low calories and gain significant strength and size. Remember, fat mass actually produces estrogen and is a sign of poor insulin sensitivity so very lean trainees gain muscle much better. This view is unpopular right now on internet bodybuilding forums (where the “eat pizza and burgers” thing is currently in fashion) but it works.

[/quote]

And there are thousands who gain strength but not an ounce of muscle on a calorie deficit.

Your claim goes against basic biology. It is not possible to gain weight without consuming a surplus of energy. I know you said gain muscle, but when someone gains muscle, then gain weight also.

26

[quote]Aggro wrote:
How can your anecdotal evidence of 14 years trump the thousands upon thousands that do see size and strength gains in a caloric surplus?

I was expecting a bit more “proof” than just “your experience” maybe some pics of people who build muscle and strength on low calorie diets. Possibly some research from someone at least semi respected in the industry?
[/quote]

Well Poliquin agrees with me… how’s that for respected?

I’m not saying that people will not gain on a caloric surplus; just that its not necessary.

27

[quote]martin blank wrote:
So, nutrition textbooks are way off about that whole calorie-in / calorie-out deal? Science is out the window on this one.[/quote]

Yes. I would have thought that anyone who reads this site knows that. Do a hundred calories of sugar and a hundred calories chicken have the same effect on the body??

Science validates what I’m saying.

Its good to have a debate about this though.

28

You’re right. I’m primarily talking about muscle gain, not jut weight gain.

“Basic biology” does not require a caloric surplus for muscle gain. The body is the most complex technology in the known universe. It does not simply operate on a calories in/calories out model.

Eat a low calorie diet, train with a successful powerlifter and let me know what happens to your body. The results will surprise you.

29

I’m extremely worried. Either,

  1. There’s a ton of people posting the same question about them not being able to make gains or some related thing that is very basic and often times goes against the whole idea of this site (Read: Body Building). I usually don’t even post advice (because IMO all the necessary advice is posted by some poor, good-hearted fool by reply 2 or 3) …and these threads still annoy me.

or

  1. There’s an abundance of trolls running around here making these threads and playing along quite well.

And no I’m not kidding when I say I can’t tell which thread is real and which is trolling.

OP if you’re for real, then listen to all, use your brain, and decide wisely on what to do.

30

[quote]Rickilicio wrote:
Wow, wasn’t expecting nearly as many responses! Seems like a great forum with a lot of people willing to help with some good info (except that one guy who called me a troll…wtf?)

As far as my diet, when I say I eat healthy, I don’t mean I count my calories and meticulously watch what I’m eating. It’s funny how some of you guys mention a lot of things I currently do, like eating peanut butter or milk (although I don’t drink whole milk, I just can’t stomache it. I only recently started liking the taste of reduced fat milk on its own), and almost everything I eat has olive oil in it, which is probably a big reason my percentage of fats when tracking my diet was rather high as well. I really liked the idea of eating nuts as a snack while at work or school as I’m often on the move.

Will-of-iron, my routine is (more or less) as follows: (almost always have 6-8 reps as my happy medium with about 4 or 5 sets)
I rarely max out, only really maxed out on benching once or twice. I also do a small amount of ab work every day.

Press day:
Start off with benching (can max out at between 200-210) some days I’ll do incline too or maybe JUST incline
triceps: dips (sometimes weighted), close grip presses, skullcrushers
Shoulders: Either do dumbbell or barbell presses or arnold presses

Pull day:
Dead lifts: My last sets are usually around 275 lbs (I don’t really max out on these)
Close and wide grip pull ups (sometimes use weight)
Rows: Either with a bar or with a cable driven machine (more often the latter)
Shrugs
Biceps: preacher curls or regular standing curls

Leg day:
Squats: I do 275 maybe 5 times
Calves

I think you need to add a little variety to your leg day:
Try some bulgarian split squats, split squats, hack squats, Romanian deadlifts, good mornings,etc etc…(not all at once but pick one or two and stick with it for 3-4 weeks.)

On all these days I try to do some cardio after my lifting. I also wanted to ask how beneficial it would be to stretch? Obviously I know it’s good for you, but can it help me? How much stretching should I do? I’m thinking my time at the gym should be

45 min of weight
25 min of cardio
10 min of stretching

Always stretch post workout. It prevents injury and from what I understand it opens your muscle fibers allowing for more growth.

Right now it’s more like:

1 hr - 1hr 15 min of weight
10 min cardio
little to no stretching

Thoughts? Advice?

[/quote]

I think your plan is pretty good. How long have you been on it? Sometimes a simple chang up is a good thing. But too much changing is a bad thing. In other words pick a workout and stick with it for at least 3-4 weeks then change it up. Do the same general movements but for instance do dumbell bench press instead of regular flat bench. or dumbell incline bench press instead of regular flat bench or do weighted dips instead of bench press.

That principal applies to all of the movements you are doing. Pick a plan stick with it for about 4 weeks and then evaluate and pick a new plan with similar movements. The variety will stimulate your muscles in a different way and lead to more growth and more strength.

31

[quote]will-of-iron wrote:
martin blank wrote:
So, nutrition textbooks are way off about that whole calorie-in / calorie-out deal? Science is out the window on this one.

Yes. I would have thought that anyone who reads this site knows that. Do a hundred calories of sugar and a hundred calories chicken have the same effect on the body??

Science validates what I’m saying.

Its good to have a debate about this though.[/quote]

Who says the suggested caloric increase for those looking to gain muscular weight would be solely in sugar? Textbooks don’t, so I’m still not sure why they’re off about how to increase muscle mass - which is dependent, quite a bit I think, on food intake.

32

[quote]will-of-iron wrote:

And there are thousands who gain strength but not an ounce of muscle on a calorie deficit.

Your claim goes against basic biology. It is not possible to gain weight without consuming a surplus of energy. I know you said gain muscle, but when someone gains muscle, then gain weight also.

You’re right. I’m primarily talking about muscle gain, not jut weight gain.

“Basic biology” does not require a caloric surplus for muscle gain. The body is the most complex technology in the known universe. It does not simply operate on a calories in/calories out model.

Eat a low calorie diet, train with a successful powerlifter and let me know what happens to your body. The results will surprise you. [/quote]

It must be “the most complex technology in the known universe” if it’s workings contradict the law of conservation of energy and Einstein’s theory of relativity.

and thermodynamics

In an isolated system energy can only change form, because of energy’s association with mass in the theory of relativity, the mass of a system cannot change without energy being permitted to enter or leave the system.

Yes, one can get stronger through improved neural efficiency–better recruitment, increased firing rate, etc.

But, aside from neural adaptations, strength is gained by increased cross-sectional area of muscle fibers–THEY NEED TO GET BIGGER. And they need energy (kcal) over and above what is needed for maintenance of bodyweight to do it.

33

[quote]Vanilla-Gorilla wrote:
will-of-iron wrote:

And they need energy (kcal) over and above what is needed for maintenance of bodyweight to do it. [/quote]

Well this isn’t true at all. You CAN build muscle in a caloric deficit, just as you can lose fat in a caloric surplus. Your body doesnt work on instantaneous terms. You may be in a net deficit for the week, and lose 1lb, but be in a great surplus post workout if you have something like surge. It is definately possible, but for a skinny guy, or even someone not making gains, its not a good idea to shoot for both. If someone is 25% BF and overweight, then they can eat at maintenance or a deficit and get good results.

34

It must be “the most complex technology in the known universe” if it’s workings contradict the law of conservation of energy and Einstein’s theory of relativity.

In an isolated system energy can only change form, because of energy’s association with mass in the theory of relativity, the mass of a system cannot change without energy being permitted to enter or leave the system.

One can get stronger through improved neural efficiency–better recruitment, increased firing rate, etc.

Aside from neural adaptations, strength is gained by increased cross-sectional area of muscle fibers–THEY NEED TO GET BIGGER. And they need energy (kcal) over and above what is needed for maintenance of bodyweight to do it. [/quote]

couldnt we change the form by utilizing stored fat for te energy/carbons as long as there is enough nitrogen from enough protein? not saying i agree one way or another, but i don’t think your view is really contradictory to his…

35

There’s a difference between what is possible and what is optimal. Just because it is possible to gain size with a caloric deficit (given your diet is very precise and spot-on), doesn’t mean one would do as well, gaining size and strength, as one would on a caloric surplus.

I don’t know why this is so hard for people to understand.

36

[quote]pstruhar7786 wrote:
It must be “the most complex technology in the known universe” if it’s workings contradict the law of conservation of energy and Einstein’s theory of relativity.

In an isolated system energy can only change form, because of energy’s association with mass in the theory of relativity, the mass of a system cannot change without energy being permitted to enter or leave the system.

One can get stronger through improved neural efficiency–better recruitment, increased firing rate, etc.

Aside from neural adaptations, strength is gained by increased cross-sectional area of muscle fibers–THEY NEED TO GET BIGGER. And they need energy (kcal) over and above what is needed for maintenance of bodyweight to do it.

couldnt we change the form by utilizing stored fat for te energy/carbons as long as there is enough nitrogen from enough protein? not saying i agree one way or another, but i don’t think your view is really contradictory to his…[/quote]

Under this scenario the caloric surplus would be coming from fat stores, and I don’t think it will yield the “significant gains” in muscular size and strength that will-of-iron suggests.

If this were the case, pre-contest dieting bodybuilders would be increasing strength as they approached competition, and the hordes of newbies who consume <1500kcal/day would be the biggest guys on this site.

37

[quote]That One Guy wrote:
There’s a difference between what is possible and what is optimal. Just because it is possible to gain size with a caloric deficit (given your diet is very precise and spot-on), doesn’t mean one would do as well, gaining size and strength, as one would on a caloric surplus.

I don’t know why this is so hard for people to understand.

[/quote]

You CANT gain size with a caloric deficit. It is physically impossible. With a deficit, there will ALWAYS be a weight loss. But you CAN build muscle while losing weight.

I guess you now know why its so hard for you to understand.

38

I tend to assume that people that want to gain muscle and strength want to get bigger, and I shouldn’t do that. I re-read the OP’s first post and he doesn’t really want to get bigger, so disregard anything I’ve said in here.

39

[quote]martin blank wrote:
I tend to assume that people that want to gain muscle and strength want to get bigger, and I shouldn’t do that. (Gee, why would you do that on a BODYBUILDING forum?) I re-read the OP’s first post and he doesn’t really want to get bigger, so disregard anything I’ve said in here.[/quote]

The OP is 165# and relatively lean. He wants to gain 10# of muscle. Unless I’m totally misreading what some are saying here, he supposedly can accomplish that with a caloric deficit (hell, a strength coach of 14 yrs and dankid can’t be wrong).

Is -500kcal enough of a deficit? Or can I try 1000? Eating all this damned food to get bigger muscles is getting expensive. I’d like to try this cheaper approach. I’ll post my results on RMP…

40

[quote]dankid wrote:
That One Guy wrote:
There’s a difference between what is possible and what is optimal. Just because it is possible to gain size with a caloric deficit (given your diet is very precise and spot-on), doesn’t mean one would do as well, gaining size and strength, as one would on a caloric surplus.

I don’t know why this is so hard for people to understand.

You CANT gain size with a caloric deficit. It is physically impossible. With a deficit, there will ALWAYS be a weight loss. But you CAN build muscle while losing weight.

I guess you now know why its so hard for you to understand.[/quote]

Bleh, semantics, you knew what I meant but you took the opportunity to try and bash me. Good for you.