It is you that are lost. What do you not get about every single study done with testosterone that showed benefit didn’t block or control estradiol? You can’t be that dense or can you? No study done on testosterone ever adjusted levels to a tolerable level of E2. You don’t have a single fact or study to support anything that you were saying. I don’t have anecdotal evidence only you do. I have decades of studies. Would you like me to send you every study done on testosterone? Would you like me to send you a couple of studies where they give it to morbidly obese man and it improves all their parameters of health? I’ll be glad to send you dozens of studies right here on this website where men were given testosterone and improved their health. You have to understand basic physiology before I do that because when we give testosterone estradiol is going to go up. So in all of these studies where they gave testosterone they didn’t even measure estradiol. I challenge you to provide one study supporting anything you were saying other than your silly anecdotal evidence. I’ll inundate you with studies with testosterone. None of the studies used an aromatase inhibitor.
You do realize testosterone is a prohormone don’t you? You do understand a little bit of physiology don’t you or maybe you don’t? It doesn’t appear that you understand the physiology behind testosterone and how it works at the tissue level. It’s amazing that none of the studies were men took testosterone and had improvement blocked their estradiol and yet they didn’t have to adjust their protocol to accommodate the E2 levels. That’s absolutely silly and laughable and only occurs with forum guys
Dude you are a lost cause and arguing with yourself at this point.
Hey, please review the article and all of the studies mentioned. Every study mentioned did not use an aromatase inhibitor nor manage or block estradiol. So every study in the references will be included in the articles I am forwarding you on men that took testosterone where there was benefit and they did not block or measure estradiol. I will send you more but please send me your studies supporting what you do.
E2 wasn’t managed? Whats the point of lowering someone’s dose then? If you are trying to argue what’s better to do is it to lower dose or add AI, that’s not what this conversation is about and once again you are just arguing with yourself.
I want you to make a statement here and now, because hopefully this will make you think and understand. “Every single men should be able to handle and tolerate and even have it be beneficial for them having a level of insert number E2”
Ok man I am truly done what ever.
they didn’t lower anybody’s nose that’s the point. Gave testosterone and raised estradiol and then got better and it prevented cardiovascular disease. If you don’t want to prevent it then block the estradiol because that’s how testosterone works. You can’t provide one single study but yeah I can provide you with hundreds if not thousands of references were testosterone was given to men and and their estradiol was not measured or controlled and they didn’t have estrogen symptoms. I’ll be glad to send you dozens of more studies with literally thousands of references that support the use of testosterone in men without blocking estradiol but yet you can’t even send one study. How about just sending one study Mr. smart guy
Let’s keep things civil and refrain from slinging personal attacks, okay?
Thanks!
That’s a good point @hankthetank89. I’ve been chasing “feeling good” and thinking 120mg/wk (DR.s Rx) would do it, but I don’t really feel any different. I don’t yell as much, calmer more balanced I suppose so there’s that. Trough hovers around 900 and I am 8 months in to my TRT treatment.
However, I have been diagnosed with OSA (mild to medium) and I am really looking forward to see what transpires with CPAP.
This is nonsense.
The counter argument to this is men on TRT are running higher levels of TT/e2 than natural men are, and therefore the range wouldn’t apply to them. That’s fine. But it’s more of an argument to lower your dose.
What do you mean by “got better”?
My last comment on this: please show the studies (I don’t have a dog in this fight but I am genuinely curious). Cos most of these studies don’t offer a blanket survey of “how do you feel” during treatment. They give the T, measure the blood, and write their report.
If your study shows that men were given test, e2 was not controlled or measured, AND NO ONE HAD ANY SIDE EFFECTS OR ISSUES then let’s see it. I’m not certain all those “side effects” were assessed and measured.
What do you guys not understand about what I’m saying? Look at any study using testosterone and you’ll see exactly what you’re looking for. Every study done with testosterone showing benefits didn’t block or measure estradiol. Take a close look at the recommendations and guidelines as I posted above. Look at all the beneficial effects they mention in this guideline. In every study they discuss they didn’t block estradiol. Just read the guidelines they state don’t block estradiol. They also tell you not to use non-aromatizable androgens. This whole monitor your estradiol and block your estradiol is not from any study using testosterone showing benefit when you do so in fact for the last time all the studies showing benefits with testosterone didn’t block estradiol. All you have to do is look at every reference mentioned in the study and in every one of those studies the estradiol was not blocked. I think what’s so funny about this whole situation is nobody can provide evidence that blocking estradiol is beneficial or that measuring and embracing treatment on the E2 levels is beneficial. Can you give testosterone it raises estradiol because that’s how it works. So in every study were you raised a men’s testosterone level you also raised his estradiol level because testosterone exerts the majority of it’s beneficial effects through it’s aromatization in the estradiol. Everyone thinks that testosterone acts just as testosterone at target tissues and that is not factual. Except in muscle tissue, when testosterone enters target tissues it is converted into its active metabolites which are DHT and estradiol. It is the active metabolites that drive testosterones beneficial effects.
And in bone formation. That was in that write up above; in men they needed action at the ER and AR in bone for growth and better density. Guess it’s not just e2 after all …
Really? Amazing how we can just give postmenopausal women back there estradiol and their bone mineral density increases without testosterone. So enlighten us please show us the study/studies where they needed testosterones to increase bone mineral density. Men become osteoporotic when their testosterone slow because when testosterone is low estradiol is low. Men need adequate testosterone levels in order to have adequate estradiol levels for bone mineral density
Also can you tell me where managing estradiol originated in men on testosterone therapy? Let me ask you this provide the medical literature that supports doing that. What study did they do that? Where did that whole concept of managing estradiol come from I would really like to know? I do know but I want to know if you actually know. The point that I’m making is that in all the studies that you will read where testosterone was beneficial they didn’t do it so why do you?
I am guessing you didn’t read that whole write up then … it was 76 pages, so I don’t blame you.
And the point that I am making is that you are ignoring my question. Then you ask a bunch more thinking you’re turning the tables on the discussion.
You can play dodgeball all you want, I’m gonna sit out
Maybe you’re not understanding what I’m saying. The majority of testosterones beneficial effects are exerted through it’s active metabolites DHD and estradiol. Here’s what I will tell you, you can increase bone mineral in males and females by just raising estradiol and not giving testosterone. Castrated males that have no testosterone due to androgen deprivation therapy are given estradiol in order to increase bone mineral density. Testosterone is not necessary to raise bone mineral density but estradiol is
n men they needed action at the ER and AR in bone for growth and better density. Guess it’s not just e2 after all …
no its not in there